Saw Palmetto, A Weak Finasteride, Studies And My Experience.

[Micky_007]

Interesting video.

I also wouldn't recommend ignoring natural treatments just because there's insufficient studies done.

It stated in this video, by a really big hair transplant surgeon in Australia, that since Saw Palmetto is a Natural substance, it doesn't have the financial backing of the big pharma to get studies done, which is often the reason people don't opt for natural treatments due to lack of evidence.

Meanwhile the reason why there's no studies done is because natural substances like natural oils (eg. Peppermint Oil, Rosemary Oil, Coconut Oil, etc) or Saw Palmetto is because their not a drug and so showing effective results of a natural substance will negatively effect big pharma's drugs.

Take what this hair transplant surgeon in the video is saying with a pinch of salt, because he mentioned he didn't really see significant results in his patients that use Saw Palmetto, but then again he clearly said he doesn't tell his patients to use Saw Palmetto, he would go through trying Finasteride, then Dutasteride if no results, then Minoxidil, LLLT, then Derma Rolling and then only recommend Saw Palmetto if he even does, which is strange because we know LLLT has no significant results. It's simply because they won't make commission money of Saw Palmetto or other natural substances like Oils which is why the don't recommend it. And they love to mention there's no studies to back it meanwhile the truth is, big pharma wouldn't do studies on it for competitive reasons.

Another point is, even if he didn't see any significant results in Saw Palmetto, that's good enough because most people would be happy with just stabilization and thickening. Even Finasteride has an extremely low percentage of regrowth as compared to its stabilizing ability.

Remember, the absence or lack of studies doesn't necessarily mean ineffectiveness.

 

[JaneyElizabeth]

Interesting video.

I also wouldn't recommend ignoring natural treatments just because there's insufficient studies done.

It stated in this video, by a really big hair transplant surgeon in Australia, that since Saw Palmetto is a Natural substance, it doesn't have the financial backing of the big pharma to get studies done, which is often the reason people don't opt for natural treatments due to lack of evidence.

Meanwhile the reason why there's no studies done is because natural substances like natural oils (eg. Peppermint Oil, Rosemary Oil, Coconut Oil, etc) or Saw Palmetto is because their not a drug and so showing effective results of a natural substance will negatively effect big pharma's drugs.

Take what this hair transplant surgeon in the video is saying with a pinch of salt, because he mentioned he didn't really see significant results in his patients that use Saw Palmetto, but then again he clearly said he doesn't tell his patients to use Saw Palmetto, he would go through trying Finasteride, then Dutasteride if no results, then Minoxidil, LLLT, then Derma Rolling and then only recommend Saw Palmetto if he even does, which is strange because we know LLLT has no significant results. It's simply because they won't make commission money of Saw Palmetto or other natural substances like Oils which is why the don't recommend it. And they love to mention there's no studies to back it meanwhile the truth is, big pharma wouldn't do studies on it for competitive reasons.

Another point is, even if he didn't see any significant results in Saw Palmetto, that's good enough because most people would be happy with just stabilization and thickening. Even Finasteride has an extremely low percentage of regrowth as compared to its stabilizing ability.

Remember, the absence or lack of studies doesn't necessarily mean ineffectiveness.

You want to believe. MtF's are insanely invested in their HRT protocols, defending certain meds and damning others. I think that male pattern baldness cures can be similar. Saw Palmetto at the least, pushes things in the right direction in terms of lowering DHT. It might work as maintenance somewhat for folks who eschew the non-natural remedies about.

 

[Micky_007]

You want to believe. MtF's are insanely invested in their HRT protocols, defending certain meds and damning others. I think that male pattern baldness cures can be similar. Saw Palmetto at the least, pushes things in the right direction in terms of lowering DHT. It might work as maintenance somewhat for folks who eschew the non-natural remedies about.

Hi JaneyElizabeth, I have a few questions, could you please answers these:

Minoxidil, for example, is recommended to be used twice a day, everyday. Does that mean people have to wash their hair twice a day before using Minoxidil? Does it mean you have to use a Shampoo to wash your hair out pre-Minoxidil to get a clear scalp or should you just use water? Or are we not supposed to wash hair twice a day, and just washing hair once a day is fine?

The reason I ask all this is because from what I know, even just washing hair everyday is bad because it strips hair of its natural oils and makes it dry and thin. So it might make it counterproductive?

So I'd imagine washing hair twice a day, everyday day could possibly be even worse for hair? Or is it fine?

 

[JaneyElizabeth]

Hi JaneyElizabeth, I have a few questions, could you please answers these:

Minoxidil, for example, is recommended to be used twice a day, everyday. Does that mean people have to wash their hair twice a day before using Minoxidil? Does it mean you have to use a Shampoo to wash your hair out pre-Minoxidil to get a clear scalp or should you just use water? Or are we not supposed to wash hair twice a day, and just washing hair once a day is fine?

The reason I ask all this is because from what I know, even just washing hair everyday is bad because it strips hair of its natural oils and makes it dry and thin. So it might make it counterproductive?

So I'd imagine washing hair twice a day, everyday day could possibly be even worse for hair? Or is it fine?

My feeling is that we all have differences related to sebum production. Until I went on HRT, I had major issues with my hair and I had to wash it once or even twice a day, if I exercised. Now, at adult female target levels for T and E2, I don't think that I really ever need to wash my hair. It never looks dirty. I don't think that washing twice a day is bad for the follicles. One presumes that doing so helps keep dermatitis and scalp flora from taking hold.

So, with minoxidil, you have two topical versions, foam and dropper. The minoxidil that comes in the bottle with the dropper creates a build-up in the hair, that some apparently like; I did not. The foam may be drying so one must figure out what is best depending upon scalp conditions. Loniten or oral minoxidil, including people who drizzle Kirkland's down their throat avoids this and it works far better than any other treatment based upon one recent study.

Anyway, you can't really wash yourself bald unless you have follicles in catagen and they were going to go anyway. It's a good question because hair loss can really make the grooming of scalp hair tedious and difficult in terms of covering thinning areas. You can ask me questions at any time and I appreciate your politeness. I usually hang out here:

https://www.gourmetstylewellness.com/interact/threads/hair-is-not-life-but-its-pretty-damn-close-hrt-and-pictorial-posts-prove-it.130425/

 

[Micky_007]

My feeling is that we all have differences related to sebum production. Until I went on HRT, I had major issues with my hair and I had to wash it once or even twice a day, if I exercised. Now, at adult female target levels for T and E2, I don't think that I really ever need to wash my hair. It never looks dirty. I don't think that washing twice a day is bad for the follicles. One presumes that doing so helps keep dermatitis and scalp flora from taking hold.

So, with minoxidil, you have two topical versions, foam and dropper. The minoxidil that comes in the bottle with the dropper creates a build-up in the hair, that some apparently like; I did not. The foam may be drying so one must figure out what is best depending upon scalp conditions. Loniten or oral minoxidil, including people who drizzle Kirkland's down their throat avoids this and it works far better than any other treatment based upon one recent study.

Anyway, you can't really wash yourself bald unless you have follicles in catagen and they were going to go anyway. It's a good question because hair loss can really make the grooming of scalp hair tedious and difficult in terms of covering thinning areas. You can ask me questions at any time and I appreciate your politeness. I usually hang out here:

https://www.gourmetstylewellness.com/interact/threads/hair-is-not-life-but-its-pretty-damn-close-hrt-and-pictorial-posts-prove-it.130425/

Thank you for the the informative answer, I appreciate you taking the time. I will definitely watch that post of yours as well

 

[Micky_007]

Came across these law suits against Merck for the side effects of Finasteride that so many people online love to downplay or say that only a minority/small amount are affected:

If Merck can cover up stuff like this, I'm highly sure they wouldn't hesitate to cover up any other negative results from studies, inflate positive results and thereby downplay the % of users experiencing negative side effects.

U.S. court let Merck hide secrets about popular drug's risks

Lawsuits claim baldness drug Propecia causes sex problems, depression. The judge sealed evidence – viewed by Reuters – suggesting the maker downplayed risks. A widow wants the truth out.

www.reuters.com

1100 law suits!!! And this was only from America!! I mean a law suit is a lot of effort, 95% of people who have issues with a drug wouldn't take the effort to resort to going through a whole law suit. Maybe at best a small percentage will maybe post their negative experiences online or on hair loss forums. So imagine how many other people would actually be experiencing side effects from Finasteride.

let people know the truth!!!!!

"More than 1,100 Propecia-related lawsuits filed across the U.S. against Merck were consolidated before Judge Cogan in so-called multidistrict litigation (MDL). Merck agreed to settle most of them last year for $4.3 million, to be divided among the plaintiffs. Prior to the settlement, plaintiffs’ lawyers cited internal company communications to allege that in revisions to the drug’s original label, Merck understated the number of men who experienced sexual symptoms in clinical trials, and how long those symptoms lasted. Merck settled before responding to the allegation in court."

Reuters asks judge to release secret Propecia documents

Reuters asked a U.S. judge on Thursday to unseal documents filed in court regarding potential risks associated with Propecia, Merck & Co's popular baldness drug.

www.reuters.com

So much for all that bullshit about only a" minority" get side effects on Finasteride lol.

 

[JaneyElizabeth]

Came across these law suits against Merck for the side effects of Finasteride that so many people online love to downplay or say that only a minority/small amount are affected:

If Merck can cover up stuff like this, I'm highly sure they wouldn't hesitate to cover up any other negative results from studies, inflate positive results and thereby downplay the % of users experiencing negative side effects.

U.S. court let Merck hide secrets about popular drug's risks

Lawsuits claim baldness drug Propecia causes sex problems, depression. The judge sealed evidence – viewed by Reuters – suggesting the maker downplayed risks. A widow wants the truth out.

www.reuters.com

1100 law suits!!! And this was only from America!! I mean a law suit is a lot of effort, 95% of people who have issues with a drug wouldn't take the effort to resort to going through a whole law suit. Maybe at best a small percentage will maybe post their negative experiences online or on hair loss forums. So imagine how many other people would actually be experiencing side effects from Finasteride.

let people know the truth!!!!!

"More than 1,100 Propecia-related lawsuits filed across the U.S. against Merck were consolidated before Judge Cogan in so-called multidistrict litigation (MDL). Merck agreed to settle most of them last year for $4.3 million, to be divided among the plaintiffs. Prior to the settlement, plaintiffs’ lawyers cited internal company communications to allege that in revisions to the drug’s original label, Merck understated the number of men who experienced sexual symptoms in clinical trials, and how long those symptoms lasted. Merck settled before responding to the allegation in court."

Reuters asks judge to release secret Propecia documents

Reuters asked a U.S. judge on Thursday to unseal documents filed in court regarding potential risks associated with Propecia, Merck & Co's popular baldness drug.

www.reuters.com

So much for all that bullshit about only a" minority" get side effects on Finasteride lol.

Thank you for posting this. As a lawyer, I am more than familiar with the putrid issues in our legal system. It is corrupt from top to bottom. I will go through this carefully. I am puzzled by the lack of references to dutasteride, however. I also note, that as is common when treating the subject of medications and suicide, often in reference to meds like Effexor and Wellbutrin, the article mentions nothing about all of the suicides possibly prevented by the use of medications. Look at Tressless and look at the abject pain and yes, suicidal articulations on that site and tell me what your answer is. It might be argued that finasteride not only saved the lives of people like me, but that it also made my life much more productive and made my life something that I could cope with, thereby saving me from having to deal with the issue of suicide.

There's no way to do cost-benefit analysis with what is alleged here. Furthermore, the term sexual dysfunction in itself is vague. All men know that penetrative sex can be achieved with a variety of erectile states. Indeed, drunkenness for many is part of the sexual experience. Between a skin bald head and a life-time of slightly less firm erections with a full or semi-full head of hair, many males would take the full head of hair every time. What are the incidences of suicide among completely bald 20 year old-men who lose their looks completely in as little as two years? What's it like to go from prom king to goofy bald incel in this scant period of time? I know the powerlessness of watching hair fall and not having a single thing to be done about it. I started balding in 1983 when there were all but literaly ZERO treatments for hair loss for males.

And what does this say for saw palmetto? How dangerous is unbridled use of any therapeutic substance that interferes with the full processing of testosterone? We see this also in the male to female transgender community where people think ingesting huge amounts of phytochemicals is somehow safe when there has been little or no testing. Mostly we assume it is just spent urine down the toilet but nobody knows for sure.

These are also prostate cancer meds and meds used daily by FtM's and MtF's. Should they be banned for these purposes? And if not, then what about off-label use? Off-label use is fully legal in U.S. law and presumably in most western nations. Off-label use is how both minoxidil and finasteride began in the baldness community. I eagerly wait for Reuters to write an in-depth article about the lack of baldness research in general and about why baldness research is always derivative of cancer and birth control research and also pure chance as in the case of minoxidil.

It is far from uncommon for balding 18 year-olds to lose all sexual function without taking any meds at all? Confidence plunges and anxiety goes through the roof and sexual performance even solo, can be completely lost. One thing that I try to raise again and again on threads related to the use of hormonal meds to combat baldness is that baldness is first of all in young men, primarily a problem of caucasian and Semitic men and appears to have a nucleus around the Mediterranean Sea that cascades outwards. The farther the distance, ceteris paribus the less baldness encountered. Native Americans, Siberians, Asians and black Africans suffer from far, far less baldness than do whites, Arabs and Jews. Next, I try to inform others seeking a cure for baldness or even a palliative process that hormonal processes are intensely complex and that it isn't just an issue of finding the right fertilizer. Stopping baldness can also stop beard growth entirely. Most of us care little comparatively about beards but the point is that this is a fine tuned process related to puberty and reproduction and it is not something easily altered. There are many genes associated with hair loss and rewriting one, might cause worse problems or different problems that can't be easily addressed.

There is no excuse for any corporation for hiding pertinent information obviously. Maybe articles like this can be the impetus for taking the issue of premature baldness--and note, this fellow was 40, well within the age group where the stigma of hair loss should be fading since even females begin struggling with hair in their menopausal years. Because the vast majority of us suffer from no sides from reductase inhibitors except increased sexual performance, yes, it is easy for people like me to disbelieve the strength of such sides in others. We need better information about the placebo effects of all medications so that we can evaluate them better. But if this med were yanked from the market, I am willing to bet that suicides increase substantially, not fall. I am wiling to be that many men struggle more to find partners and to find success in life instead of there being this happy community of the bald brotherhood embraced by young females the world over. So, yes, if Merck has sinned, then so be it. Like the opiod scandals, no one thinks about the veterans full of constant pain now unable to get sufficient meds who now commit suicide to avoid the pain. The focus is only on the other aspect.

Baldness in many ways, has been the most notable aspect of my post-pubertal experience and many of you would smack me if you saw pictures of me up into my late 40's because it isn't even visible particular in my pics, certainly from the front but I saw it and my wife say it and my children saw it in spite of my never having any slick bald spots. My father continues at 82 to have a full head of hair like Ronald Reagan's. I heard the comments at 22, supposed to be funny about him looking like the son and me looking like the father. How many in that suicide might contemplate hopelessness? The other thing overlooked here is the aspect that impressed me so much about many of the guys on Tressless. What did they do to try to fix this? They went out and figured out how to titrate dosages all the way down to tiny, tiny amounts and often doses taken days if not weeks apart. That's the way to deal with this situation, more so than anger. People need to know the relevant risks, of course. But the anti-finasteride cohort is in my opinion far worse than those who minimize possible risks because these folks actively try to demean others who seek perhaps to prevent their own spiral downward into depression and hopelessness by exaggerating their own experiences. "Tried finasteride last night and my nuts shrank to raisins" again and again and again, I see variations of this phrase on Tressless.

Ultimately, articles like this hopefully will raise consciousness that baldness is a serious health concern, not just a cosmetic concern as this article tries to claim. It goes far past that.

 

[Selb]

Going to bump this because I’ve been taking SP pills for around 2 weeks. And I also stopped minoxidil around 4 months ago.

Just had a shower and shed a looot of hair. It reminded me of my pre-minoxidil days. I’m not too scared of shedding as I’m used to shedding even before hair loss. But it was so much that I’m a little worried.

Would you guys attribute the random shed event to stopping minoxidil or It being SP since a lot of hair loss treatments induce shedding? I didn’t think it was minoxidil because it’s been a few months at this point and I thought I was home free

 

[Micky_007]

Going to bump this because I’ve been taking SP pills for around 2 weeks. And I also stopped minoxidil around 4 months ago.

Just had a shower and shed a looot of hair. It reminded me of my pre-minoxidil days. I’m not too scared of shedding as I’m used to shedding even before hair loss. But it was so much that I’m a little worried.

Would you guys attribute the random shed event to stopping minoxidil or It being SP since a lot of hair loss treatments induce shedding? I didn’t think it was minoxidil because it’s been a few months at this point and I thought I was home free

It's really difficult to tell with things like this when you haven't waited at least 6 full months after stopping 1 treatment before using another.

Usually it can take up to 6 months after stopping a hairloss treatment before you can see the resulting hairloss from stopping treatment.

So with your case, it could be that your hair shedding is caused by stopping Minoxidil, or because you started Saw Palmetto, or a combination of both treatments such that you incurred hairloss due to stopping Minoxidil and using SP.

 

[Selb]

It's really difficult to tell with things like this when you haven't waited at least 6 full months after stopping 1 treatment before using another.

Usually it can take up to 6 months after stopping a hairloss treatment before you can see the resulting hairloss from stopping treatment.

So with your case, it could be that your hair shedding is caused by stopping Minoxidil, or because you started Saw Palmetto, or a combination of both treatments such that you incurred hairloss due to stopping Minoxidil and using SP.

I did want to wait a few more months but I figured if minoxidil didn’t cause shedding after 3 months I was good to go. Might go back on it at this point. Would quickly narrow the source of shedding down

 

[Micky_007]

I did want to wait a few more months but I figured if minoxidil didn’t cause shedding after 3 months I was good to go. Might go back on it at this point. Would quickly narrow the source of shedding down

I wish you good luck! But just be a bit patient because it may take a few months if not the next hair cycle to see results of reduced shedding from re-starting Minoxidil. Don't want to end up disappointed because you wanted an answer "quickly".

 

[Selb]

I wish you good luck! But just be a bit patient because it may take a few months if not the next hair cycle to see results of reduced shedding from re-starting Minoxidil. Don't want to end up disappointed because you wanted an answer "quickly".

Thanks! Yeah I’ll try to be patient. I did it before, so time to do it again