saw palmetto recovery time and damage question

[hairguync1]

Before I new any better I was taking Procerian and megaman multi vit together for about 6 months strait. My hair looks like its gotten worse over that time. Now I've changed my regimen and started using finasteride with minoxidil. Should I have waited before starting finasteride to let my body recover from the high doses of saw palmetto? Do you think the saw palmetto could have done perm damage that is unreversible?

 

[sublime]

:dunno:

 

[nohairnodandruff]

procerin sucks

 

[Weepy]

Large doses of SP should not, in any way, affect finasteride. I actually take both.

I don't want to be argumentative, but this may not be true. If SP truly is a non-specific 5-alpha reducatse inhibitor, it will competitively inhibit finasteride. Remember, finasteride is a 5-alpha reductase-2 inhibitor.

HOWEVER, I do not know what the kinetics are. I am still trying to find papers, and the going is so slow. It is too expensive to buy select papers, and I do not have access to an academic library.

Further, I doubt that the kinetics of any herbal has been studied with any academic rigour. And even then, these studies are usually in vitro. I have found a paper on 5-AR-1 that really brings this point home.

http://jcem.endojournals.org/cgi/content/full/86/6/2875

 

[GourmetStyleWellness]

Large doses of SP should not, in any way, affect finasteride. I actually take both.

If you're doing this why don't you just take Avodart??

gourmetstylewellness.com

 

[michael barry]

Avodart is ninety a month isnt it? I know beta sitosterol, nettle, saw palmetto, african pygeum (if they {SPalmetto} do indeed inhibit alpha five reductase like the Italian Dermatological study on hairsite.com claims it did recently) are pretty cheap at GNC.

 

[Weepy]

Avodart is ninety a month isnt it? I know beta sitosterol, nettle, saw palmetto, african pygeum (if they {SPalmetto} do indeed inhibit alpha five reductase like the Italian Dermatological study on hairsite.com claims it did recently) are pretty cheap at GNC.

You may or may not see results from these herbals. With these drugs, you have only a marginal idea of what you are taking. Most herbals are not synthetic; they are "standardized." To what degree they are metabolized within your body into the ingredient you are looking for is not known. Again, I haven't seen anything on kinetics.

I am not familiar with the clinical literature to know which are considered upper, second, or third tier. This is why I would suggest that you simply use a drug that has been clinically studied from well known labs and evaluated by the FDA. hair transplant is right on this. If you are looking to inhibit both isozymes, then use Avodart.

BUT EDUCATE YOURSELF ON POTENTIAL SIDES, ETC. This is not a trivial decision. Anything that (1) depresses DHT levels to that degree and (2) stays in the body for that long could be very dangerous. In addition, I would carefully evaluate Internet advice and clinical studies from unknown labs posted on click-n-mortar web site.

 

[GourmetStyleWellness]

Well put Weepy. Just because a study found X to "inhibit DHT" doesn't mean its a hair loss treatment, or that its safe, or that its effective. There are so many other questions that need to be answered:

1) what type of DHT is inhibited?
2) what percent of it is inhibited?
3) exactly how much do you have to take?
4) do you take that amount once a day? 4 times a day?
5) is it safe? are there any contraindications? side effects?

This doesn't even touch upon the most important questions:

1) Did it increase hair counts?
2) How long did it take to increase hair counts?
3) Did it just maintain hair count?
4) How did the placebo perform in relation to the "dht inhibiting herb" ?

People have tried to do studies like this on Saw Palmetto and it failed to perform. We found out later that a large part of this is because Saw Palmetto fails to reduce serum DHT levels. Its just not good at it, like finasteride, which works in 83% of people.

So there is a lot to remember when seeing a study. And a lot of questions you still need to ask.

gourmetstylewellness.com

 

[michael barry]

http://www.hairsite4.com/dc/dcboard.php ... &mode=full

That is the study posted by hairsite.com in the hairsite forum. It was conducted in Italy by a Dermatological Association there in Battaglia. It used sixty two subjects divided into three groups. One group got internal palmetto and grew hair. Another got a topical lotion and shampoo with the internal and grew hair. Both had decreased sebum and a decrease in debhorrea. The placebo group didnt grow hair.

This is not big enough a study to convince me either. However, as beta sitosterol is the common ingredient in nettle, pygeum, and palmetto and is the most popular natural supplement on hairsite forums and is cheap also. Proboably couldnt hurt. If something is indicated for prostate and Im the boss of the FDA, I make the organization test the products for baldness also no matter how much Merk and Glaxo whine. Ninety dollars a month is ridiculous.

 

[GourmetStyleWellness]

I looked at the study.

Unfortunately it was only run for 3 months. Major, major problem. Hair counts change significantly in a 3 month period all on their own, simply due to hair cycles. This is why every researcher on earth knows that 12 months is the minimum amount of time to conduct a study. I was excited for a minute there that we actually had our first study showing it worked, but I wondered what major problem there was with the study itself Unfortunately I was right. 3 months is .. i hate to say it ... a joke. And a bummer too because we could all use another product that would work.

I dare say you could pour pee on your head for 3 months and show an increase in hair count, if you were cycling in to new growth at the time. Wouldn't have anything to do with the pee, but a 3 month study would imply it did.

I have no agenda against Saw Palmetto. I honestly don't. I want another treatment to tell people about just as much as the rest of you. The problem is, I can't get it out of my head - that meeting I had with Dr. Angela Christiano at Columbia University.

She happens to be married to the man who created one of the most well known Saw Palmetto hair loss tonics on the market today. Yet still she looked me right in the eye and told me it did absolutely no good in her trials on it. She had every reason, and in fact pressure to show that it worked, and she said it failed.

Then she spent about 15 minutes telling me about the stress she's dealt with due to the conflict of interest between the study results, and her husband's product. As a result she has had to keep the study results under lock and key ever since. Unable to publish and prove once and for all that it is an ineffective product.

The other unfortunate thing is that she is a legitimate hair researcher and she knows how to conduct a legitimate trial, and that trial was done properly, for the correct amount of time, everything. There are over 100 studies on Saw Palmetto's success in the Prostate and a virtual ghost town as far as hair loss success goes. All the prostate studies were run by independent researchers just like the many hair loss studies attempted were.

I wish I could have hope but these events are why I quite simply don't believe it works. I've seen the study results.

gourmetstylewellness.com

 

[michael barry]

Thanks gourmetstylewellness.com<
Thats a fantastic piece of information. I wish I would have read that sooner. Thats an enormous uncomfy situation for Christiano Im sure. I have read claims that the stinging nettle might interfere with androgen receptors, but have seen absolutely nothing substantiated, and a pubmed study that had a 32 percent reduction in DHT prostate tissue with Palmetto (but Palmetto is already indicated for prostate health).

Ive also wondered about beta-sitosterol as its (according to hairsite) the most popular natural supplement on their forums. Lycopene is now being touted as good for prostate, but no studies have been done so I dont suppose we will be smearing tomato paste on our heads. Im hoping, like you Im sure, that a natural compound will be identified and indicated for male pattern baldness not only because of the lower price but the fact that manufactured medicines are not natural compounds and almost all have side effects. Im well aware that some natural remedies have awful side effects to (even death), but not nearly as often. I wish that study Christiano has done would be published so folks can know once and for all about palmetto's perfomance. By the way, did she study it internally, externally, or both?

I, like you, really wish revivogen, crinagen, and folligen, and PHASE THREE for tricomin would take place so male pattern baldness sufferers could make informed decisions on this stuff. About fifty bucks a month is all most of us are willing to spend so it would be nice to be SURE our treatments outside the big three were doing us good.

Ive also considered an idea of my own that perhaps the FDA could do a 'class A' study and a 'class B' study of drugs or natural treatments that would use only perhaps 100 subjects instead of a thousand so they would be much more cheap to conduct. This way, a company could cheaply test a product, and if it worked..........fork over the money for big tests. Also, natural things like lavendar, horsetail, cayenne pepper, cold water rinses, electomagnetic therapy and five others could be tested for efficacy in about a year period for the price of ONE BIG drug company test with photographic results posted on the FDA website. BTW, are any big companies testing anything now......? Wonderin' if the big boys are interested in the immune system angle on baldness after the immune deficient mice experiments and such?

 

[GourmetStyleWellness]

a pubmed study that had a 32 percent reduction in DHT prostate tissue with Palmetto

Yeah. Thats what throws people all the time. The key is that SP failed to reduce serum DHT levels like Propecia does, when taken orally. That's the real key since it is circulating 5-ar that needs to be reduced in order to ultimately help hair. On the other hand, topically applied SP has at least logically, a better chance of being beneficial. That takes us full circle to the whole "tissue" thing. If you can get it right in the tissue, you may have some results.

Im hoping, like you Im sure, that a natural compound will be identified and indicated for male pattern baldness

I am hoping that natural compounds will be tested across the board, for tons of ailements! Only very recently has anyone really started testing foods, supplements, and herbs for health benefits in proper, controlled studies. Its a great step forward, and I personally use Fish Oil and other supplements entirely because of the study data available on them! I use Acidophilus supplements when I need them (wink wink) as well. Im actually quite an avid LEF magazine reader, and practically orgasm at their focus on studies AND herbal remedies. Its the one without the other that always made me skeptical. I've had quite a negative reputation on hairsite for many years because of my position on this issue. Backwards isn't it?

I wish that study Christiano has done would be published so folks can know once and for all about palmetto's perfomance. By the way, did she study it internally, externally, or both?

Internally from what I recall. She even has photographs of actual follicles that they were evaluating on several different levels to see if the presence of SP in the system did anything whatsoever to the processes in the hair. Ironically, she told me she met with David of hairsite and showed him the same data. I guess he didn't put much weight on it?

it would be nice to be SURE our treatments outside the big three were doing us good.

I feel bad because 90% of the guys who hang on hairsite are older. 40's and later. Guys who never really did anything about their hair loss until quite later, and have consequently had no results with the big three. Conversely, on a positive note, 90% of the guys we reach are high school and college age, and they are getting on at least one of the big three before their hair ever gets a chance to get very far. The result? Total maintenance and happiness with the tired old "Big 3" ... so I continue to get reports from guys *all the time* that they no longer visit the site but appreciate the info they got. Im amazed at the negativity and snide comments so many people give the big 3 ... its like ... dude... the stuff works .... for almost everyone. No point in trash talking it, or those who support it. We just want to help people.

Ive also considered an idea of my own that perhaps the FDA could do a 'class A' study and a 'class B' study of drugs or natural treatments that would use only perhaps 100 subjects instead of a thousand so they would be much more cheap to conduct. This way, a company could cheaply test a product, and if it worked..........fork over the money for big tests.

Well thats one thing i agree with all the herbal enthusaists about: the FDA will never do that. It wont pay to do it. So we rely on independent researchers who want to add to the general knowledge out there and hope that someone comes up with something. FDA studies are NOT REQUIRED for legitimacy. Not by a long shot. If all we lived and breathed were FDA studies, that would be really stupid. However properly run studies are a requirement. Properly run, peer reviewed, and published in a reputable journal. Significantly cheaper and as far as Im concerned, just as legitimate.

gourmetstylewellness.com

 

[Dave001]

Large doses of SP should not, in any way, affect finasteride. I actually take both.

I don't want to be argumentative, but this may not be true. If SP truly is a non-specific 5-alpha reducatse inhibitor, it will competitively inhibit finasteride. Remember, finasteride is a 5-alpha reductase-2 inhibitor.

HOWEVER, I do not know what the kinetics are. I am still trying to find papers, and the going is so slow. It is too expensive to buy select papers, and I do not have access to an academic library.

Further, I doubt that the kinetics of any herbal has been studied with any academic rigour. And even then, these studies are usually in vitro. I have found a paper on 5-AR-1 that really brings this point home.

I reviewed most of the studies on Serenoa repens (SP) about one or two months ago as a refresher. You're correct that most of the studies have been in vitro, and I don't know of a single in vivo study demonstrating any 5 alpha-reductase (5aR) activity from SP. Of the few human studies of SP, only one bothered to measure 5aR activity, and SP had no effect on the enzyme:

Strauch, G., P. Perles, et al. (1994). "Comparison of finasteride (Proscar) and Serenoa repens (Permixon) in the inhibition of 5-alpha reductase in healthy male volunteers." European Urology 26(3): 247-52.

Abstract: "A total of 32 healthy male volunteers (age range 20-30 years) were enrolled in a 1-week open, randomized, placebo-controlled study comparing finasteride (Proscar), a 5 alpha-reductase inhibitor, with Permixon, the plant extract of Serenoa repens. The objective of the study was to evaluate the effect of single and multiple doses of the drugs on the inhibition of 5 alpha-reductase as assessed by serum dihydrotestosterone level determination. Following baseline measurements on day 1, the subjects were randomized to finasteride 5 mg once a day (n = 10), Permixon 80 mg x 2 twice a day (n = 11), or to placebo once a day (n = 11) for 7 days. Serum testosterone and dihydrotestosterone levels, were determined on day 1 (baseline and 12 h) and on days 2 (24 h), 3 (48 h), 4 (72 h), 6 (120 h), and 8 (168 h). After 12 h, a single dose of finasteride 5 mg reduced the serum dihydrotestosterone level by 65% (p < or = 0.01). The decreases ranged from -52 to -60% with multiple doses of finasteride 5 mg once a day (p < or = 0.01). As in the placebo group, there was no effect of Permixon on the serum dihydrotestosterone level. No significant difference was detected between finasteride and Permixon or between finasteride and placebo with respect to serum testosterone, except on days 3 and 6, respectively (p < or = 0.05). However, the corresponding serum testosterone levels remained within the normal ranges. These data confirm the efficacy of finasteride as inhibitor of 5 alpha-reductase."

Funnily enough, there is a hint of evidence to suggest that the fatty acid component of the extract is responsible for the inhibitory effect on 5aR.

Iehle, C., S. Delos, et al. (1995). "Human prostatic steroid 5 alpha-reductase isoforms--a comparative study of selective inhibitors." Journal of Steroid Biochemistry and Molecular Biology 54(5-6): 273-9.

Here is an excerpt from the full text:

"The inhibitory action of LSESr can doubtless be partly attributed to a modulatory action of its lipid component on the environment of the enzyme. 5a-reductase is a nuclear membrane-associated enzyme and many fatty acids are essential component of mammalian membranes. Specific aliphatic fatty acids can inhibit 5a-reductase activity [25] whereas phospholipids such as phosphatidylserine and phosphatidylcholine can either stimulate or inhibit activity [25, 26]. As previously described [22] and confirmed by this study, partial purification of 5a-reductase requires the presence of lipids to recover and stabilize enzyme activity. Furthermore, as suggested by the experiments with LSESr, both 5a-reductase isoforms appear highly sensitive to their environment. Enzyme access to its cofactor depends on the conformational state of the protein which in turn depends upon membrane composition. This observation could explain the discrepancies in affinity of the enzymes for NADPH recorded by different authors [this study, 5, 6, 24] which seem to vary with the expression system used."

The 25th footnote was the well known study by Liang and Liao (1992): "Inhibition of steroid 5a-reductase by specific aliphatic unsaturated fatty acids."

 

[Dave001]

I dare say you could pour pee on your head for 3 months and show an increase in hair count, if you were cycling in to new growth at the time. Wouldn't have anything to do with the pee, but a 3 month study would imply it did.

Uh-oh. A lot of people with balding coworkers are going to be really pissed off at you for having made that suggestion. :wink:

 

[michael barry]

GourmetStyleWellness,

I was looking at your regimine and noticed you dont do propecia. I have a question for you about revivogen, but first my little regimine so you will understand my situation. I take half a propcecia tablet, use nizoral once a week, use folligen from Pickart 4 times a week, take vitamins (flax, MSM, fish, arginine also), scalp excercise, employ cold water rinses.

I had read "somewhere" but cant remember where that the zinc in crinagen and revivogen might interefere with my superoxide dismutase bearing folligen because the copper and zinc would interfere with each other and perhaps hinder new blood vessel formation. Id really like to do a alpha 5 reductase inhibitor topical. I realize the copper in folligen supposedly reduces 50% of the activity of alpha 5 type one (according to pubmed and pickart) and Pickart fortifies his emu oil (use that about 3 times a week) with saw palmetto topically (thats the main reason Im still intrigued with palmettos topical application----Pickart's use of it instead of just adding GLA or ALA to his emu).

Have you read any info reguarding zinc and copper peptides inhibiting each other?

Note: Due to reading Dr. Sawaya's interview where she states that minoxidil might be just as effective with a once a day application, Im considering trying the 2% again. I used it from 1990-1996, but got off it and on propecia. I didnt know to take both back then. Quite frankly, Im wondering if the 2% will work for me after taking it for 6 years, but hope since Ive not used it in 10 years since.............any ideas on this.


Dave,
Other than sprio or fluridil.............do you have any faith in any alpha-5 inhibitors out there other than revivogen or crinagen? Ive got the propecia and nizoral base covered, and using a SOD.........would like to keep type 1 produced dht away from scalp if I could too. Also, you may know this.........cortisol and androstenodione are supposedly found in balding scalp biopsies a little more prevalent than normal. Any known topical inhibitors of those? (long shot, I know)

 

[Old Baldy]

I looked at the study.

Unfortunately it was only run for 3 months. Major, major problem. Hair counts change significantly in a 3 month period all on their own, simply due to hair cycles. This is why every researcher on earth knows that 12 months is the minimum amount of time to conduct a study. I was excited for a minute there that we actually had our first study showing it worked, but I wondered what major problem there was with the study itself Unfortunately I was right. 3 months is .. i hate to say it ... a joke. And a bummer too because we could all use another product that would work.

I dare say you could pour pee on your head for 3 months and show an increase in hair count, if you were cycling in to new growth at the time. Wouldn't have anything to do with the pee, but a 3 month study would imply it did.

I have no agenda against Saw Palmetto. I honestly don't. I want another treatment to tell people about just as much as the rest of you. The problem is, I can't get it out of my head - that meeting I had with Dr. Angela Christiano at Columbia University.

She happens to be married to the man who created one of the most well known Saw Palmetto hair loss tonics on the market today. Yet still she looked me right in the eye and told me it did absolutely no good in her trials on it. She had every reason, and in fact pressure to show that it worked, and she said it failed.

Then she spent about 15 minutes telling me about the stress she's dealt with due to the conflict of interest between the study results, and her husband's product. As a result she has had to keep the study results under lock and key ever since. Unable to publish and prove once and for all that it is an ineffective product.

The other unfortunate thing is that she is a legitimate hair researcher and she knows how to conduct a legitimate trial, and that trial was done properly, for the correct amount of time, everything. There are over 100 studies on Saw Palmetto's success in the Prostate and a virtual ghost town as far as hair loss success goes. All the prostate studies were run by independent researchers just like the many hair loss studies attempted were.

I wish I could have hope but these events are why I quite simply don't believe it works. I've seen the study results.

gourmetstylewellness.com

gourmetstylewellness.com: We've had this discussion before. I appreciate the fact that you want SP to help. I posted studies that show SP to, at least, have anti-inflammatory effect(s).

I've also gone a little wacko and stated Dr. Christiano and her husband are basically crooks if what you say is true (and I have no reason to disbelieve you).

How do you explain this post from an old alt.baldspot.com thread? (Note what Dr. Proctor says briefly about SP.)

http://groups.google.com/group/alt.bald ... 69584cb6cc


You see gourmetstylewellness.com, when dealing with "crooks" you get alot of different statements. You and Farrell are NOT crooks.

Oh, I forgot to mention, why didn't Dr. Christiano just say GLA worked for hairloss? Was this the study she put under lock and key because it jeopardized her financial situation with her husband? Or, was this another study that she didn't tell you about?

In other words WTF is going on with Dr. Christiano? From what I've read, Dr. Christiano cannot be trusted. Sorry, but that's where the evidence leads me.

Just read an old ald.baldspot thread where Dr. Christiano said Rogaine and finasteride. were marginally effective and had serious side effects. She stated Hair Genesis was the best product out there. She stated it had the best ingredients for treating male pattern baldness. Now come on, if that isn't a shill statement than I don't know what is! Why do you guys like this fool so much?!