sebum and dht

[Armando Jose]

Hi Tony;

In my opinion it is sufficient use Jojoba at night 2 or 3 times a week.

Look for a good natural Jojoba, 100% pure, first cold press with intense gold colour. There is some in the market, including http://www.disnatural.com.

There is not possibility to get zits with Jojoba oil.

Armando

can I use this on dry skin as well?

Jojoba oil is perfect for dry skin, even dermatitis and psoriasis.

Armando

 

[Bryan]

Hey, Armando! Have you gotten your Sebutape test-strips yet?

 

[Armando Jose]

Hi Bryan;

Yeah, I have 15 Sebutape Adhesives patches from CuDerm (Dallas). Thank you

Nowadays, I have a lot of work, including two trade fairs, Biocultura and Salon Look International in Madrid, where we presented a very good hidronutritive cream, based in jojoba, argan and aloe, with sunscreen and essential oils.

Within two weeks, I'll have time to test the sebum in scalp of prepubertal friends of my daugther. And I'll post the results.

Have a nice day

Armando

 

[abcdefg]

So basically sebum isnt anything to worry about as it doesnt cause hairloss at all. Sebum though is a sign your hair is sensitive to dht or there is dht near the follicles? Then the only thing in our power to lower sebum would be dutasteride which I personally would never take to lower type 1?

 

[Bryan]

Hi Bryan;

Yeah, I have 15 Sebutape Adhesives patches from CuDerm (Dallas). Thank you

Within two weeks, I'll have time to test the sebum in scalp of prepubertal friends of my daugther. And I'll post the results.

Excellent! I look forward to hearing about that!

BTW, I hope you post the details of exactly what you're going to do, BEFORE you actually do it. I may have comments and/or suggestions on your exact methodology.

 

[Armando Jose]

Hi Bryan;

Yeah, I have 15 Sebutape Adhesives patches from CuDerm (Dallas). Thank you

Within two weeks, I'll have time to test the sebum in scalp of prepubertal friends of my daugther. And I'll post the results.

Excellent! I look forward to hearing about that!

BTW, I hope you post the details of exactly what you're going to do, BEFORE you actually do it. I may have comments and/or suggestions on your exact methodology.

Thank you Bryan for your offer. You are a expert in this issue.

I have in this moment:

S121 Clear View PRO Storage Cards – 5 cards with 6 storage & writing areas

S100 Adhesive Patches Sheeted – 4 sheets of 4 patches.

S200 Skin indicator 15 indicators on a 3â€￾ core

SEBUTAPE Skin Indicator is a non-adhesive sebum collecting device incorporating a dark background for quickly estimating surface sebum. The size and density of sebum spots are visualized in the sensing area of the indicator.

DIRECTIONS: Peel the Skin Indicator from the carrier sheet.
IMPORTANT: Do not peel the covering from the square active sensing area. Press the sensing area firmly against a facial skin site (e.g. forehead, cheek, nose or chin) for 5 seconds. During this brief contact, the indicator will collect the sebum form the surface of the skin. Oiliness is revealed as dark spots on the active area. Observe the active area under a bright light, then compare with the reference patterns on the right to determine level of oiliness. Low, Medium or High


And also

Adhesive Patches are a unique combination of adhesive and micro-porous film. The film acts as a passive collector of sebum. When the pores of the film are filled with sebum, they appear transparent. Patches are placed on the dark background of a storage card for evaluation by eye or computer image technologies.
DIRECTIONS: Cleanse the facial areas to be evaluated with an alcohol swab or mild soap solution. Rinse and dry throroughly. Carefully lift the patches from the carrier sheet and apply to cleansed skin sites. Smooth the patch so that it adheres closely to the skin surface. After one hour or other suitable time period remove the patches and transfer to the black rectangles on the storage card. To obtain a numerical sebum level, compare the pattern and size of spots on the patches with the numbered reference patterns on the right. INCREASING SEBUM LEVEL, 1,2,3,4 and 5.


The better system to collect sebum in hair zones in my opinion are Adhesive patches, because they have a adhesive to fix in the test area and it is possible colletc sebum during more time than Skin indicator.
The idea of this experiment is try to collet the sebum from hairy zones. Then, in order to adheres closely the adhesives patches to the skin surface, it is necessary cut the hair or better shave it. Also, to obtain comparable results I think is better wash the hair the last day or better two days ago.

Also can be interesting to compare the results with pubertal persons.

My friend Bryan, What will be your proposal?
What is the optimal time to collect sebum? In the instructions say one or two hours!!!.

Have a nice day

Armando

 

[Bryan]

The better system to collect sebum in hair zones in my opinion are Adhesive patches, because they have a adhesive to fix in the test area and it is possible colletc sebum during more time than Skin indicator.
The idea of this experiment is try to collet the sebum from hairy zones. Then, in order to adheres closely the adhesives patches to the skin surface, it is necessary cut the hair or better shave it. Also, to obtain comparable results I think is better wash the hair the last day or better two days ago.

Also can be interesting to compare the results with pubertal persons.

My friend Bryan, What will be your proposal?

I disagree with some of those things you said above, Armando. Here are some suggestions of my own:

1) I think the Skin Indicators are a better choice for this purpose than the Adhesive Patches, because it only takes 5 seconds to get the sebum measurement, instead of an hour or two. The small child won't have to sit there for an extended period of time with adhesive patches stuck to his/her scalp and face!

It's quite possible to collect sebum over a period of time with the skin indicators, too, just like it is with the adhesive patches. All you have to do is let the SKIN do the collecting, not the skin indicators themselves. In other words, first you carefully clean the area of skin to be tested (to remove any sebum that may have accumulated for several hours, or even several days), then you WAIT a certain fixed period of time, like maybe an hour or two in this specific case. Then you apply the skin indicator for 5 seconds, and remove it. It's as simple as that. The dark, oily spots that you will see on the skin indicator (if any) will be the accumulation that appeared on the skin for that hour (or two hours, or whatever) after the initial cleaning operation.

2) While it's perfectly ok to compare the results of pre-pubertal children with the results of post-pubertal children, the most important thing we're testing here is your theory that young pre-pubertal children can have a significant production of scalp sebum even when they are not producing any sebum on their faces. So for that reason, the most critical part of the experiment will be to make a Sebutape impression (again, I strongly recommend using the skin indicators, rather than the adhesive patches) on BOTH the child's forehead area AND his/her scalp. Then we will compare them with each other, to see if there is any difference in the levels of sebum on the face and on the scalp IN THE SAME CHILD.

3) So the general description of the procedure that _I_ would do is this:

Clip a small area of the child's scalp (just an area big enough to use with the skin indicator) as short as possible; shaving it would be the best way of all, if he/she (or his/her mother) will let you do it! Tell them it's for the advancement of Science!

Thoroughly wash the child's forehead and the area of scalp with a simple soap or shampoo that doesn't have any oily ingredients of its own which could show up on the Sebutape skin indicator and be mistaken for sebum; then, just to be absolutely sure, wipe the areas with an alcohol pad as a final cleaning procedure, to insure that the areas are really clean (use pure alcohol, not cheap rubbing alcohol, because even some cheap alcohol often contains greasy impurities which could look like sebum on the Sebutape). When I do tests like these, I personally make a good cleaning solution by mixing enough distilled water with Everclear (a 95% alcoholic beverage sold here in America) to make a 70% ethanol solution. It is safe, oil-free, and it's even drinkable!

Then wait an appropriate period of time for the sebum to slowly re-appear on the child's face and scalp. If it really is a pre-pubertal child, it may take a long time (maybe an hour or two?) for enough sebum to appear which may be only faintly visible on the test-strips as tiny little black dots. But that's when you would press the skin indicators against those same areas on the face and scalp, and then compare them afterwards (press firmly, and hold it for 5 seconds). Then compare the two test-strips with each other, and scan them or photograph them side-by-side, so that you can post it for me and the others to see!

During the one-hour or two-hour waiting period for the sebum to build-up (if it's going to build-up at all), try to get the child to remain seated during that time. Don't let him touch those areas of his face or scalp, so that he doesn't get oil or dirt from his fingers onto the test-areas. He should avoid physical activity, so that he doesn't get sweaty in his face or scalp. Watching TV during that time would be an excellent way to keep him occupied during the test.

Here is a scan of some Sebutape Skin Indicators that I did as part of a simple little test for someone over on HairLossHelp. I did it to prove to someone over there shampoo _does_ remove sebum pretty well, even when used all by itself. The test-strip at the top (labeled with a "1" near the right edge) is a clean, unused test-strip, which I included just for comparison. The one in the middle (labeled with a "2") is the one I applied to my own upper forehead area, near the hairline. Really really oily, isn't it? :mrgreen: The bottom one (labelled with a "3") is the one I did at the very same spot, but after washing with an ordinary shampoo. You can see that the shampoo removed almost ALL the sebum that was there before; all that's left are three or four very tiny spots of sebum. When you do the test with your pre-pubertal child, the amount of oil that you see after an hour or two waiting period after cleaning _may_ be about as minimal as what you see in my test-strip #3.

http://img405.imageshack.us/img405/430/shampoovt3.jpg

 

[Armando Jose]

Hi Bryan;

Your advice is very useful.

I'll use Skin indicator to collect sebum in forehead, near hair front line, and scalp hairy zone, clipping or shaving the hair. I'll try to convice a boy and a girl, prepubertal, and I'll measure my own sebum output with the same methodology as you have described it.

I can use Adhesive patches also ¡n forefront to confirm the results.

OTOH, I think is better use surgical gloves to avoid interferences in all the process.

BTW I have just read your post in hairlosshelp forum about sebum and polisorbate.

You are a convicent person. Thank you very much.

Best regards

Armando

P.S. I am anxious to star the essay. I hope all came well.

 

[Armando Jose]

Hi Bryan;

i have just remember that caolin with a solvent could be good approach in order to extract all sebum inside the pilosebaceous unit.

But, it is neccesary the use of a cromatographic collum to fix the components

Any ideas?

Armando

 

[michael barry]

Ive got an idea,


British Journal of Dermatology
Volume 154 Issue 1 Page 85-89, January 2006

To cite this article: M.P. Birch, H. Lashen, S. Agarwal, A.G. Messenger (2006)
Female pattern hair loss, sebum excretion and the end-organ response to androgens
British Journal of Dermatology 154 (1), 85–89.
doi:10.1111/j.1365-2133.2005.06953.x

Prev Article Next Article
Abstract
ORIGINAL ARTICLE
Female pattern hair loss, sebum excretion and the end-organ response to androgens
M.P. Birch, H. Lashen**Obstetrics & Gynaecology (Jessop Wing), Royal Hallamshire Hospital, Sheffield S10 2JF, U.K., S. Agarwal and A.G. MessengerDepartments of Dermatology and *Obstetrics & Gynaecology (Jessop Wing), Royal Hallamshire Hospital, Sheffield S10 2JF, U.K.
Dr A.G. Messenger.
E-mail: [email protected]
Conflicts of interest: None declared.

Summary

Background Although female pattern hair loss can be a feature of hyperandrogenism, many women with hair loss show no clinical or biochemical features of androgen excess. It is possible that hair loss in nonhyperandrogenic women is due to a high level of response to androgens by scalp hair follicles. In this study we explored this idea using sebum excretion as a marker of the cutaneous end-organ response to androgens.

Objectives To test the hypothesis that hair loss in nonhyperandrogenic women is due to an increased cutaneous end-organ response to androgens.

Methods We studied 100 women, 41 with female pattern hair loss (without hirsutism), 29 with hirsutism (with and without scalp hair loss) and 30 subjects without hair problems. We measured hair density on the frontal scalp, forehead sebum excretion, serum free androgen index (FAI), and body mass index (BMI).

Results The mean FAI was significantly raised in hirsute women compared with nonhirsute women (P < 0·001), but there was no difference in FAI levels between nonhirsute women with and without hair loss. The mean BMI was also significantly elevated in hirsute women (P < 0·01) but there was no difference in BMI between nonhirsute women with and without hair loss. The mean sebum excretion was higher in hirsute women than nonhirsute women but the difference was not statistically significant. There was no difference in sebum excretion between nonhirsute women with and without hair loss. There was no correlation between hair density and sebum excretion.

Conclusions Our results show that sebum excretion is not elevated in women with female pattern hair loss. This may indicate that different androgen-response pathways operate in controlling hair growth and sebum excretion. The alternative explanation is that nonandrogenic mechanisms are involved in mediating hair loss in some women





Any Interpretations??????????

 

[Armando Jose]

Ahhhhh. Dr. Andrew Messenger (*);

I knew him in a lecture in Berlin IMHRS. A good guy, inteligent and.....

Michael Barry, I knew the article cited, and it is interesting but the sentence:
"There was no correlation between hair density and sebum excretion." is so far wrong, in my opinion. He didn't measure sebum scalp but in forehead.

Also I am wondering when it is possible see published the data. Mr Messeguer words:
" We do have clinical data on the distribution of hair thinning
in women over the entire scalp, not yet published."


Armando


(*)
Re: Paper Requested?
De: Andrew Messenger ([email protected])
Enviado: jueves, 27 de septiembre de 2007 22:24:59
Para: Armando Ya


Dear Mr Ya
I agree it would have been useful to have sampled more than one site on
the scalp in our study population. However, you may appreciate it is not
easy to persuade women to have one site on their scalp shaved, let alone
two. It is also very unlikely that our ethics committee would have
agreed to let us do this. With regard to the Japanese study, they also
sampled only a single site - their upper parietal site was probably not
too far displaced from our site on the frontal scalp lateral to the
midline. We do have clinical data on the distribution of hair thinning
in women over the entire scalp, not yet published.
It is indeed possible that balding is related in some way to events in
the upper part of the hair follicle. Conceivably this could involve
sebum but there are many variables (excretion rate, pooling in the
infundibulum, sebum composition, colonisation of the follicle by
sebotrophic micro-organisms, wicking onto hair shafts) which make it
difficult - though not impossible if funding is available - to devise
informative experiments.
regards

My Question about this: “It was a pity that you were not carried out phototrichograms in the parietal area, similar to this work.
>
> Journal of Investigative Dermatology Symposium Proceedings (2003) 8,
> 116–120; doi:10.1046/j.1523-1747.2003.12184.x
>
>
> Phototrichogram Analysis of Japanese Female Subjects with Chronic
> Diffuse Hair Loss

Dear Dr. Andrew Messenger

Thank you very much for your formative and informative response. Funds are necessary in order to make experiments.

I am very convinced that there is a reverse relation between hair density in parietal zone (genetic fixed and normally not change with common baldness) and the incidence of common baldness, in both sexes. The same with hair thickness and even hair length. I thought that in a university campus, it not difficult to recruit one or two hundred of persons interested in this issue. It is sufficient have the instrumental, photograph camera, software, personal and other utilities to make the experiment. On the other hand, I'll add the possible interference of oxidized sebum with the travel of stem cells from the bulge area to the dermal papilla, the problems with sebum flow are not confined to the upper part of the hair follicle in my opinion.

I'll pay attention when you publish clinical data on the distribution of hair thinning in women over the entire scalp.

By the way, what do you think about the possible presence of androgens in the vicinity of pilosebaceous scalp hairs in children? Is easy postulate it because children, both sexes, have the best hair, and they have sebum in these years. Plucked hair of healthy and prepubertal people is sufficient to test this issue. I think that HPLC/RIA or PCR is sufficient to demonstrate that the current androgenética theory have serious problems.

Best regards

Armando Yañez



Armando Ya wrote:
>
> Dear Dr. A. G. Messenger;
>
> Thank you very much for your quick response.
>
> After reading your interesting work, I have some comments
>
> It was a pity that you were not carried out phototrichograms in the
> parietal area, similar to this work.
>
> Journal of Investigative Dermatology Symposium Proceedings (2003) 8,
> 116–120; doi:10.1046/j.1523-1747.2003.12184.x
>
>
> Phototrichogram Analysis of Japanese Female Subjects with Chronic
> Diffuse Hair Loss
>
>
> Rie Ueki, Ryoji Tsuboi^_1_
> <http://www.nature.com/jidsp/journal/v8/n1/full/5640103a.html#note1#note1>
> , Yutaka Inaba^_*_
> <http://www.nature.com/jidsp/journal/v8/n1/full/5640103a.html#aff1#aff1>
> and Hideoki Ogawa
>
>
>
> So, under my point of view, key results could be obtained to figure
> out the process of the common alopecia.
>
>
>
> I am very interested in carrying out some experiment in this way, also
> in men.
>
>
>
> According to my theory, problems in sebum flow are the initial and
> triggering cause for common baldness. A person with a high hair
> density and a thicker hair are protected in this issue, as point out
> the investigations.
>
>
>
> Alls comments are welcome.
>
>
>
> Yours sincerely
>
>
>
> Armando J Yañez Soler
>
>
>
> http://www.againstalopeciaandbaldness.com
>
>
>
> > Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2007 22:47:31 +0100
> > From: [email protected]
> > To: [email protected]
> > Subject: Re: Paper Requested
> >
> > Paper as requested
> > best wishes
> > Andrew Messenger
> >
> > Armando Ya wrote:
> > > Dear Dr. A.G. Messenger;
> > >
> > > I am very interested in your work
> > >
> > > Hair density, hair diameter and the prevalence of female pattern hair
> > > loss.
> > > Br J Dermatol 2001; 144: 297–304.
> > >
> > > Can you send me an electronic copy by e-mail?
> > >
> > > Thank you in advance.
> > >
> > > Armando J Yañez Soler
> > > e-mail: > > >
> > >
Andrew Messenger
Department of Dermatology
Royal Hallamshire Hospital
Sheffield S10 2JF

 

[Yellow Submarine]

I got a nasty outbreak of about 7 zits just last week after using Jojoba oil for only 2 days on my face. I know for a fact that the jojoba oil caused this because I have very dry skin and never get more than 1-2 pimples per month.

 

[Armando Jose]

I got a nasty outbreak of about 7 zits just last week after using Jojoba oil for only 2 days on my face. I know for a fact that the jojoba oil caused this because I have very dry skin and never get more than 1-2 pimples per month.

It was a pure jojoba oil 100%?

Armando

 

[Yellow Submarine]

Yes, 100% Pure. I bought it from Trader Joe's. I'm not saying it's bad stuff, it really helped clear up some brutal dry skin on my hands within a mere amount of days after I had no success in doing so with several different moisturizers. However, on the back of the bottle the label claimed that jojoba oil can be used as a great aftershave moisturizer so I took its advice, and then woke up the next day with the worst acne of my life. I guess that's more of why it happened, as my pores almost certainly got clogged from doing this. Wouldn't have been that big of a deal if I hadn't used some of my roomates acne treatments to try to clear it up which greatly irritated my whole face and made it look and feel like I had a very bad sunburn for days. I guess one just has to exercise great moderation and care when using jojoba oil, I'll probably use it again soon as harsh winter weather is approaching, but most certainly not as an aftershave!

 

[Armando Jose]

Hi Yellow submarine;

Thank you for your response. I think that you are an excepcion to the rule.

I am using Jojoba oil even as shave cream, not only aftershave and I have not problems.

Good luck

Armando

 

[TonyTheTiger]

I just started using the jojoba 3 days ago and it feels like my hair is strong not as dry.

but I still shed like 15 hairs in the shower.

but its only been 3 days.does the jojoba strengthen the root or something?

also I haven't got any zits on my head either I looked it up and its rare to get zits from jojoba like armando said.

 

[Armando Jose]

HY Tony;

How doy you use jojoba oil, as a lotion or some drops with shampoo?

Armando

 

[TonyTheTiger]

HY Tony;

How doy you use jojoba oil, as a lotion or some drops with shampoo?

Armando

as of right now I just put some drops on my finger tips and put it on my temple region and crown where I have thinning hair.

am I supposed to mix a few drops in my shampoo?

which is the way?

 

[Armando Jose]

Hi Tony;

Pure jojoba oil as a lotion at bedtime and wash hair next morning is a good aproach, 2 times a week.

Also a drops with shampoo is good for the fiber hair.

Have a nice day

Armando

 

[TonyTheTiger]

Hi Tony;

Pure jojoba oil as a lotion at bedtime and wash hair next morning is a good aproach, 2 times a week.

Also a drops with shampoo is good for the fiber hair.

Have a nice day

Armando

lol I put the jojoba in the morning after I shower is that bad?

only 2 days a week So far I used it 4 days straight.

should I use the jojoba 2 days and the aloe vera gel the other days?