Skin Needling

[mulder]

The instructions that came with my roller suggest cleaning it no more than once a week, providing your hair and scalp are clean and dry before using it each time. I will probably clean it every 3 or 4 days, just in case.

OK funny guy. you got me on that one.

actually he isn't kidding.

 

[Maxpwr]

*hehe* no I'm not kidding, sounds strange only cleaning it once per week, but fair enough.

I'm assuming anyone else who's tried needling has gotten the same first impression I did - Ouch! It hurts! Especially around the temples and the top of the forehead. I'm hoping it will actually be worth it, not only for the price I paid but the pain as well.

I'm gonna take pics every month and a half or so (following each haircut). That's the only way I'm going to notice any difference, although it will be hard to determine if any results will be directly associated with the needling, or the concoction of chemicals and potions I'm taking with it.

hmmm.....

 

[joseph49853]

This is all true CCS but I don't think many are arguing that needling improves the thickness of already existing hair or prevents further loss. What people seem to claim is that it is capable of 'rejuvenating' or perhaps even producing new follicles by breaking up some of the old fibrosis and encouraging fresh collagen and vascularization. Most people I've seen who have claimed success with it seem to think it has an effect on it's own and don't think increased absorption of topicals is the reason it works.

The rollers that are commercially available are between 0.3-0.8mm or so. What is the minimum depth of scalp hair follicles? I would imagine it is well below that.. I personally plan on using it on my bald spot in the back and the temples first and wait to see what the results are. If they're unambiguously positive I'll use it over my entire scalp in the hope it will improve overall density as well as bringing new hair to bald patches.


If you haven't read it before check out this thread:

http://www.hairlosshelp.com/forums/mess ... SGDBTABLE=

Nice to see someone willing to do the legwork, and not simply wanting to be spoon-fed information. What a revelation. This thread has actually given me great hope for the forum. I previous thought it to be filled with mental masturbators, and self-indulgent Google scientists with their techno-jargon and needy inferior flock.

Not everyone loses their hair merely due to DHT, me included. And still you have people willing to practically castrate themselves with finasteride/dustasteride based on limited clinical studies backed by greedy pharmas, and furthered by the broken FDA monitoring/reporting process.

No matter how we try to convince ourselves, the prostate of a normal healthy young male was never meant to be reduced to the size of a pea. It's tad amount to placing yourself in a whole body cast to heal a broken finger.... topical/potential systematic absorption vs. oral administration. Think too about: reducing inflammation, perifollicular fibrosis, and increasing collagen, vascularity, circulation, oxygen etc.

Also, more people need to think quality over quantity. And we should be just as concerned about scalp health to support that growing hair. My hair is softer, thicker, more resilient, and yes darker, with a hairline of that of my late teens/early twenties. I spent the entire summer with my hair completely impervious to humidity. Everyone now asks me what's so drastically different about my appearance... to the point of redundancy. Obviously, I'm not going to tell them about needling, or my hairloss regimen in general.

I already did the straight minoxidil/finasteride thing for YEARS, to the result of a greater quantity of otherwise thin, reedy, lifeless, unkempt hair. Not to mention, I experienced finasteride side-effects up the wazoo, which GREATLY affected my quality of life.

I suggest everyone finding the needling procedure painful trying it with a wet scalp. This will greatly break surface tension and soften the blow. Otherwise, take it like a man. I needle only twice a week to give the region time to properly heal. And if you can't afford the Dermaroller, lancets are super cheap. Just make sure to keep the needle sterile as to not introduce any unwanted problems.

Here's my entire regimen:
2-3x a week skin needling
2-3x a week retin-a
5-7x a week minoxidil
3-5x a week Inflama-Rest topical conncoction (along with pure Optimsm, androgynous caffeine, vitamin C, and capsacin) Just be careful with the Inflama-rest, as too much can stain the scalp. Incidentally, too much capsacin will unduly burn like a mother.

Caffeine Anhydrous
http://www.bulknutrition.com/?products_id=748

Opti-MSM (increases cell permeability)
http://www.opti-msm.com/

Source Natural's Inflama-rest (acts as a multi-faceted Cox-2 inhibitor)
http://www.sourcenaturals.com/products/GP1724/

Blammo. Better hair, and more of it. Better appearance. Move on with your life. YMMV.

Exactly what do you f'ckers have to lose?

 

[blaze]

joseph,

do you use dermroller or a regular needle/syringe?

And do you needle your entire scalp??

 

[Renegade]

"Not everyone loses their hair merely due to DHT, me included."

Not trying to mental-masturbate, but this sorta implies that that joseph doesn't have male pattern baldness like the rest of us. Makes me wonder if there are any limitations on what the needling will address.

Oh well, I wouldn't expect a reply since whatever the case was, he has successfully recovered.

I'm still ordering a dermaroller here in a few days though. I Probably will create a separate thread to document any results.

 

[mulder]

This is all true CCS but I don't think many are arguing that needling improves the thickness of already existing hair or prevents further loss. What people seem to claim is that it is capable of 'rejuvenating' or perhaps even producing new follicles by breaking up some of the old fibrosis and encouraging fresh collagen and vascularization. Most people I've seen who have claimed success with it seem to think it has an effect on it's own and don't think increased absorption of topicals is the reason it works.

The rollers that are commercially available are between 0.3-0.8mm or so. What is the minimum depth of scalp hair follicles? I would imagine it is well below that.. I personally plan on using it on my bald spot in the back and the temples first and wait to see what the results are. If they're unambiguously positive I'll use it over my entire scalp in the hope it will improve overall density as well as bringing new hair to bald patches.


If you haven't read it before check out this thread:

http://www.hairlosshelp.com/forums/mess ... SGDBTABLE=

Nice to see someone willing to do the legwork, and not simply wanting to be spoon-fed information. What a revelation. This thread has actually given me great hope for the forum. I previous thought it to be filled with mental masturbators, and self-indulgent Google scientists with their techno-jargon and needy inferior flock.

Not everyone loses their hair merely due to DHT, me included. And still you have people willing to practically castrate themselves with finasteride/dustasteride based on limited clinical studies backed by greedy pharmas, and furthered by the broken FDA monitoring/reporting process.

No matter how we try to convince ourselves, the prostate of a normal healthy young male was never meant to be reduced to the size of a pea. It's tad amount to placing yourself in a whole body cast to heal a broken finger.... topical/potential systematic absorption vs. oral administration. Think too about: reducing inflammation, perifollicular fibrosis, and increasing collagen, vascularity, circulation, oxygen etc.

Also, more people need to think quality over quantity. And we should be just as concerned about scalp health to support that growing hair. My hair is softer, thicker, more resilient, and yes darker, with a hairline of that of my late teens/early twenties. I spent the entire summer with my hair completely impervious to humidity. Everyone now asks me what's so drastically different about my appearance... to the point of redundancy. Obviously, I'm not going to tell them about needling, or my hairloss regimen in general.

I already did the straight minoxidil/finasteride thing for YEARS, to the result of a greater quantity of otherwise thin, reedy, lifeless, unkempt hair. Not to mention, I experienced finasteride side-effects up the wazoo, which GREATLY affected my quality of life.

I suggest everyone finding the needling procedure painful trying it with a wet scalp. This will greatly break surface tension and soften the blow. Otherwise, take it like a man. I needle only twice a week to give the region time to properly heal. And if you can't afford the Dermaroller, lancets are super cheap. Just make sure to keep the needle sterile as to not introduce any unwanted problems.

Here's my entire regimen:
2-3x a week skin needling
2-3x a week retin-a
5-7x a week minoxidil
3-5x a week Inflama-Rest topical conncoction (along with pure Optimsm, androgynous caffeine, vitamin C, and capsacin) Just be careful with the Inflama-rest, as too much can stain the scalp. Incidentally, too much capsacin will unduly burn like a mother.

Caffeine Anhydrous
http://www.bulknutrition.com/?products_id=748

Opti-MSM (increases cell permeability)
http://www.opti-msm.com/

Source Natural's Inflama-rest (acts as a multi-faceted Cox-2 inhibitor)
http://www.sourcenaturals.com/products/GP1724/

Blammo. Better hair, and more of it. Better appearance. Move on with your life. YMMV.

Exactly what do you f'ckers have to lose?

Thanks a lot man. I'm going to use the novaderm roller a couple of times a week and see how it goes. I already have MSM as a supp and plenty of anti-inflammatories in my regimen so I think I'm pretty good there. The only thing left to add is some retin-A, but I'm already getting some salicylic in my prewash shampoo. I'll let you guys know how it goes.

 

[joseph49853]

Those older men who might not necessarily produce DHT have inconsequential incidences of benign prostatic hyperplasia. So... obviously there could be those young males with serum DHT as something other than their primary cause of hairloss. Or why is it then that finasteride or dutasteride, even in combination with minoxidil, isn't necessarily a cure-all? Certainly high serum blood levels of DHT doesn't always relate to scalp DHT either.

As a young male, unless you suffer from a super enlarged prostate, in my opinion, I would never even consider finasteride. I also would never take finasteride orally for hairloss either. Again, this is just my opinion, and perhaps contrary to the popular one. I would rather instead see those with a follicular sensitivity to DHT try a topical finasteride (or saw palmetto, beta-sitosterol, stinging nettle etc.) solution. Just half of a proscar/fincar tablet (2.5mg) inside a 60ml bottle of minoxidil should do the trick; and even with the potential for systematic absorption, one could (theoretically) avoid many of the sides.

Most people think of the prostrate mainly inovleved in urinary function, and largely misunderstand the role it plays in sexual function. Like somehow the unnatural shrinkage of your prostate to sometimes 1/3-1/4 it's size won't reflect itself in other areas, as an equal and opposite reaction.

In respect to needling, I too believe needling is only half of a more complete process. Many super important growth factor proteins and pro-inflammatory factors come into play during this time. Yet, you would also want to immediately assist this tissue regeneration and remodeling with a topical anti-inflammatory, and other vitamins (C, E, D.) Otherwise natural contraction and healing of these mini-wounds can take as long as 3-5 days.

Over time, I would also worry about this perpetual process of wound healing causing: a loss of function, scarring, disfigurement; and therefore, I limit my needling to only 2-3x a week. I will sometimes give my scalp a week or two rest. I also worry about inhibiting the bodies' own inflammatory response, and take breaks from any anti-inflammatory during this time as well. Also, be aware, for those using a topical finasteride solution, Inflama-rest contains Bioperine which will greatly inhibit its absorption. Again, also realize bacteria is a wound's worst enemy. At best it will only impede wound healing, at worst.... So make sure to keep everything sterile AT ALL TIMES.

I just feel strongly by changing the completion and overall health of the skin, it in turn supports and greatly affects the quality of hair... for a greater period than either finasteride or minoxidil alone. What good is growing more hair, if it looks like a rat died on-top of your head?

Anyway, good luck to everyone. And make sure to report back, continue to fill the void and add to the limited reservoir of applicable knowledge in this area.

 

[mulder]

Again thanks for sharing your perspective Joe.
I take it you use needling all over the top of your head? Do you use a roller or just needles? Thanks

 

[Ray777]

I may look into trying this if it were true. Only thing that bothers me is that there are no before and afters on this miracle treatment.

 

[joseph49853]

I may look into trying this if it were true. Only thing that bothers me is that there are no before and afters on this miracle treatment.

What's the impetus for someone to hold your hand through the process? That's why this is called an 'experimental treatment' forum. Who said anything about this being a "miracle treatment"? Otherwise, you stick with traditional methods, and hope for an optimal response other than frail thin hair. I'm just imparting some of my own personal experience. Whatever you chose to follow is your own business.

There are even cheap alternatives to an expensive Dermaroller, simple lancets that are easily found at any drugstore.... for anyone wanting to give this a shot. I hope we could collectively lay out copious bits of information, and relate personal experiences. And it's certainly not that difficult to enter certain search strings into Google on "wound healing" and "skin needling" as it relates to hair growth.

There are even studies about the keratinous powder derived from hair being able to accelerate wound healing. Or how about protein synthesis, and ultimately keratin, being involved in the wound healing process, which signals hair to grow by inhibiting TNF-a (tumor necrosis factor-alpha.)

Although, what's mainly being attempted here is promoting maximal wound healing with minimal scarring, that's a given. Otherwise, you're just poking your skin without a very clear objective. In that case, one likely would be better off sticking with a blunt object, like a toothpick, which might also offer some promise. That might be my advice to you.

 

[mulder]

So I take it you don't use a roller? or do you?

Have you seen lots of new vellus hairs doing this?

 

[joseph49853]

So I take it you don't use a roller? or do you?

Have you seen lots of new vellus hairs doing this?

I've done it three ways.... a sharpened sewing needle, lancets, and finally the Dermaroller. It doesn't really matter. For lancets, you're probably best with a 30-33 gauge. You can find a box of 100 for around 2-5 dollars. I borrowed a few from a diabetic family member. And for those who are squeamish, a toothpick, or any other blunt pointy object, will replicate some of the benefits.

And not only have I SEEN vellus hairs doing this, I've FELT them. LOTS, all over my scalp, inbetween already established hair, especially at my hairline. And most of them have darkened and matured into fully realized hairs.

 

[blaze]

Joseph

Do you use any copper peptides after needling or just minoxidil?

 

[mulder]

Interesting observation. Only doing the needling about twice a week and have only done it twice so far. But each time I've done it I've had major allergic reactions. The reason why, I'm speculating, is that I have ragweed allergies and poking these holes in my skin is enough to dramatically increase exposure to the allergen temporarily. I think it gives some credence to the increased absorption idea- the response is pretty dramatic. Another thing I've notice is that applying my DNC after needling- my scalp seems to dry up more rapidly and there's less 'leftover' when I wash my hair in the morning. How do I know? DNC burns when I wash it off in the morning because of the capsaicin apparently. Less burning now and presumably more absorption.

Oh and applying copper peptides too soon after needling really stings. I've decided to wait at least 30 min and apply a small amount if I do it at all.

 

[little]

can skin needling be tested on another portion of he body to acess effectivness

will the resultant growth be permanent after cessation of treatment

were do you by the novaderm needler

thanks

 

[mulder]

you can get a novaderm roller on ebay. Will cost you about $100 though...

 

[blaze]

Interesting observations mulder.

BTW, what have you been using to needle with?

 

[tonemaster]

i found this method to be very interesting and logical. last night i took a sewing needle, steralized it and poked away at my scalp. it didnt really hurt too much. the slight pain was a good pain. my scalp definatly felt envigorated. afterward i applied rogaine foam and i could tell it was absorbing it better because of the slight sting. even now, the morning after my scalp feels refreshed. i can sense the blood flowing much better. thanks for the post joseph.

im now debating on getting or a roller or such, except theyre so damn expensive!

i hope everyone continues to post their progress with this treatment.

 

[Felk]

last night i took a sewing needle, steralized it and poked away at my scalp. it didnt really hurt too much. the slight pain was a good pain. my scalp definatly felt envigorated. afterward i applied rogaine foam and i could tell it was absorbing it better because of the slight sting.

Um... perhaps this stinging isn't to do with an increase in absorbtion, but actually to do with the minoxidil going into the holes you poked in your head?

 

[chowmein]

Um... perhaps this stinging isn't to do with an increase in absorbtion, but actually to do with the minoxidil going into the holes you poked in your head?

...hmm, perhaps you should try it Felk...?!
From experience, you can feel and hear a 'pop' in the scalp were your hair would naturally grow whilst needling, which encourages you to experiment with different parts of your scalp.. And after needling, wherever you apply your growth stimulant: i.e rogaine: the scalp literally drinks up the minoxidil.. giving the feeling of a dramatically inreased absorbsion rate, and you can definitely feel the effects of this increased rate of absorbtion which increases the heart rate..well, to be honest, you feel the effects you actually felt when initially starting minoxidil for the first time!
After two weeks of needling (ONCE per week but 'thorough'!!), my vellus hair, ain't too vellus any more. )

My regimen is to concentrate on needling, applying the foam, applying my topical caffeine & vit C - letting the increased colligen repair my scalp which increases hair growth via cell rejuvenation and also take my AVODART (4xweekly) & (2000mg) MSM to complete my personal hair restoration regimen.

The needling is a definite 'step up' in my regimen. All is going well !!!!