Smad-7 New find

Armando Jose

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the active ingredients in Revivogen are Free fatty acids, ok? Liao investigations point to the effect of FFA's in the conversion of testosterone to DHT.
then, if sebum is broken down to free? fatty acids by bacteria and fungus. It could be beneficious the impact of these organisms in male pattern baldness, regarding the metabolism of androgens?

Armando

BTW, Bryan is an expert in this issue. Can you give us an explanation?
 

michael barry

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Armando, I really doubt any free form fatty acids are in sebum....




: Br J Dermatol. 1980 Aug;103(2):131-7. Related Articles, Links


Differences in the lipid constituents of sebum from pre-pubertal and pubertal subjects.

Sansone-Bazzano G, Cummings B, Seeler AK, Reisner RM.

Significant differences have been reported in the composition of skin surface lipid in pre-pubertal subjects when compared to pubertal subjects. Analytical studies were performed to determine whether group mean changes in the fatty acid composition of the triglyceride and wax ester fractions of sebum could be detected in pre-pubertal versus pubertal subjects. Twenty males (ages 6-9), twenty females (ages 6-9) and twelve teenagers (ages 11-16) were studied. Skin surface lipid was examined by densitometry and gas chromatography. There were significant changes in the fatty acid composition of the wax fraction of sebum in the 11-16-year-old children when compared to the 6-9-year-old group. As wax is of sebaceous gland origin, this may represent a change in sebum composition probably in response to the hormonal stimulus. Changes in the fatty acid fraction of triglycerides were also noted with age, but this may be due to the change in source of triglyceride from predominantly epidermal origin to sebaceous gland origin.

PMID: 7426411 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]




Here is another paragraph describing whats found in some sebum:

Quartz capillary gas chromatography was used to analyze the wax ester fatty acids of 4 sebum samples collected at 2-week intervals from each of 10 adult human subjects. Marked differences in wax ester fatty acid composition between subjects were apparent. The greatest variation was present in the even-carbon-numbered iso-branched acids, which ranged from 1–22% of the monounsaturated acids and from 1–13% of the saturated acids. The anteiso chain structures formed 3–7.5% of the unsaturated acids and 3–13.5% of the saturated acids. Fatty acids bearing one or more methyl branches at other positions in the chain made up 12–22% of the saturated acids, but were not present in the unsaturated fatty acid fraction. This and other features of the composition of the unsaturated fatty acids indicate that the 6-desaturase that produces the monounsaturated fatty acids of human sebum requires a substrate having a straight chain of at least 12 carbon atoms extending from the carboxyl group. The differences in fatty acid composition between subjects and the constancy of composition for each of the subjects over the 2-month period indicate that the synthesis of each of the types of chain structure is under genetic control



I have read in the past that some linolenic acid was in sebum, but I dont know if its free-form linolenic acid or not.

I HAVE read that sebum INJECTED into the dermis has an inflammatory effect.



Armando,

Byran has shown that MK386 (or whatever Merk's type ONE alpha five reductase inhibitor was named) DEFINITELY reduced sebum excretions, but only had a small effect on hair sizes.

Finasteride, a type two alpha five inhibitor, has NO effect on sebum, but does positively effect hair size.


We know Nizoral shrinks the sebaceous gland by 19.4 percent according to the sudy here at GourmetStyleWellness, reduced sebum secretions, and led to larger hair shafts about equal to what two percent minoxidil usage did. Im currently testing nizoral shampooed on my left wrist every third day will do. It will be about three more months at least before Im able to render a verdict as thats about how long it takes for that to happen.

Green tea extract (or the ECGC therein) was able to reduce human sebum secretions on a forehead (Bryan posted that way back), so it may lead to much less sebum also.


All I can say about the revivogen success I had in reducing body hair was WHAT I SAW MYSELF> I wish I took a picture of that now.

HOWEVER< I have read that beta sitosterol sees an uptick in TGF-beta production and that is worrisome about that product to me.









Harm,

MSM has been used on racehorses and other animals for a long, long time and has been claimed by trainers to make their coats look beautiful. I used to have a link to a study that demonstrated that people who took MSM had better hair growth than controls, but dont know wherethefuck it is. Sulfur used to be used in anti-acne creams. Perhaps its an antimocrobial, or an anti-inflammatory. I dont know. Its been claimed by beacoup people over the years on these hairsites that it seeminlgy makes hair less oily when one takes MSM every day. There are sulfudryl receptors on some dermal tissues I think. I have no idea how it might work though. I know sulfurs are regardes as good for hair however. Abscorbyl palmitate, a form of vitamin C, is also good for hair.

Wookie posted this at HLR.........................
An interesting article on vitamin C and stem cells:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/2914589.stm



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
quote:
In an exhausting process, they mixed stem cells with a total of 880 "bioactive" substances to see if any of them nudged the embryonic cells into heart muscle cells.

Only one had any effect whatsoever - vitamin C, or ascorbic acid, which turned the embryonic stem cells into cardiac myocytes - heart muscle cells.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Vitamin C is also known as ascorbic acid. It appears to have hair growth stimulative properties:

http://www.ehrs.org/conferenceabstracts ... 37-kim.htm



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
quote:

P37 ASCORBIC ACID 2-PHOSPHATE PROMOTES HAIR GROWTH


[...]

The growth stimulation of dermal papilla cells and induction of hair follicle growth seems to be, at least in part, mediated by IGF-1 over-expression from dermal papilla cells by Asc 2-P. In addition, these data suggests that signalling pathway that leads to versican expression is activated by Asc 2-P and Asc 2-P may keep dermal papilla cells to maintain hair-inducing activity by regulating versican.




Harm, if youre not into supplements.................a couple of glasses of orange juice and some onions (sulfur) might be good for hair dietarily. Ive run across one proposed study that wanted to evaluate the differenes in human sebum of people who ate high cabohydrate diets vs. lower ones. We know sebum secretions between adults and children are a little diffferent in composition. Perhaps people with high glycemic index diest have sebum secretions that are somewhat pro-inflammatory when reabsorbed. Another reason to shampoo every day and get that off your head though.
 

Bryan

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michael barry said:
Armando, I really doubt any free form fatty acids are in sebum....

There ARE free fatty acids in sebum, but I believe they are thought to be exclusively from the bacterial (like P acnes) decomposition of the triglycerides in sebum. Bacteria produce esterases which go to work on triglycerides.

Bryan
 

Bryan

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Armando Jose said:
the active ingredients in Revivogen are Free fatty acids, ok? Liao investigations point to the effect of FFA's in the conversion of testosterone to DHT.
then, if sebum is broken down to free? fatty acids by bacteria and fungus. It could be beneficious the impact of these organisms in male pattern baldness, regarding the metabolism of androgens?

Armando

BTW, Bryan is an expert in this issue. Can you give us an explanation?

God, I don't FEEL like an expert! :)

My gut-feeling on that (there's a nice slang English expression for you, Armando!) is that the level of free fatty acids in sebum probably isn't enough to have a significant "antiandrogenic" (I use the term loosely -- you know what I really mean) type of effect. Liang & Liao got those effects only when they flooded an area of skin with much larger amounts of the fatty acid than what would be found in sebum.

Bryan
 

abcdefg

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I'm definitely lost in this technical chemistry-biology conversation as usual. So Doctor if someone is losing hair partly due to immune response, is propecia still a good idea? Im not using it but you sound as if its a good idea currently to take 5ar2 inhibitor.
 

Armando Jose

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Thank you Bryan and Michael for your response.

I am with Bryan: There are free fatty acids formed by the action of the bacterial, but the problem of the supossed "antiandrogenic" effect could be in the small concentration of them. But it is only a gut feeling....., no studies.

Have a nice day

Armando
 

RyanR

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DOCJ007

I am VERY interested in the connection/link to TGF Beta and ACCUTANE. I have lost significant hair while on ACCUTANE. It is a diffuse thinning, but concentrated in the traditional male pattern baldness areas of temples and hairline. I have lost probably 50% of hair in 3-4 months. It has not returned even though accutane is over. THIS IS THE ONLY PLACE I HAVE FOUND ANYTHING LIKE THIS THEORY.

There are a LOT of people who have graet skin and thin hair from accutane. PLEASE elaborate on as much as you can. This is the info i have been searching for.


Also, you talked briefly about IGF-1. As Personal Trainer, I know guys who use IGF-1 Lr3. Are you saying it causes hair growth, or shedding. please explain if you could. I'm not going to run out and order it, but I haven't heard anyone complain of hairloss from it. Nor have I heard/read anything at all in regards to it and hair growth in general. THANKS SO MUCH. :)
 

HARM1

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RyanR said:
DOCJ007

I am VERY interested in the connection/link to TGF Beta and ACCUTANE. I have lost significant hair while on ACCUTANE. It is a diffuse thinning, but concentrated in the traditional male pattern baldness areas of temples and hairline. I have lost probably 50% of hair in 3-4 months. It has not returned even though accutane is over. THIS IS THE ONLY PLACE I HAVE FOUND ANYTHING LIKE THIS THEORY.

There are a LOT of people who have graet skin and thin hair from accutane. PLEASE elaborate on as much as you can. This is the info i have been searching for.


Also, you talked briefly about IGF-1. As Personal Trainer, I know guys who use IGF-1 Lr3. Are you saying it causes hair growth, or shedding. please explain if you could. I'm not going to run out and order it, but I haven't heard anyone complain of hairloss from it. Nor have I heard/read anything at all in regards to it and hair growth in general. THANKS SO MUCH. :)

Have a nice read: Towards dissecting the pathogenesis of retinoid-induced hair loss: all-trans retinoic acid induces premature hair follicle regression (catagen) by upregulation of transforming growth factor-beta2 in the dermal papilla.

Foitzik K, Spexard T, Nakamura M, Halsner U, Paus R.

Department of Dermatology, University Hospital Hamburg-Eppendorf, University of Hamburg, Hamburg, Germany.

Diffuse hair loss ranks among the most frequent and psychologically most distressing adverse effects of systemic therapy with retinoids, which severely limits their therapeutic use even where clinically desired. Since the underlying mechanisms of retinoid-induced effluvium are as yet unknown, we have investigated the influence of the prototypic retinoid all-trans retinoic acid (ATRA, tretinoin) on the growth of human scalp hair follicles (HF) in culture. HF in the anagen VI stage of the hair cycle were cultured in the presence of 10(-8) or 10(-10) M ATRA. Compared with controls, hair shaft elongation declined significantly already after 2 d in the ATRA-treated group, and approximately 80% of the ATRA-treated HF had prematurely entered catagen-like stage at day 6, compared with 30% in the control group. This corresponded to an upregulation of apoptotic and a downregulation of Ki67-positive cells in ATRA-treated HF. Since transforming growth factor (TGF)-beta has been implicated as a key inducer of catagen, we next studied whether ATRA treatment had any effect on follicular expression. TGF-beta2 immunoreactivity was detected in the outer root sheath of anagen VI scalp HF. In catagen follicles, TGF-beta2 was also expressed in the regressing epithelial strand. After 4 d of ATRA treatment, TGF-beta2 was significantly upregulated in anagen HF in the dermal papilla (DP) and the dermal sheath, 7, and TGF-beta neutralizing antibody partially abrogated at RA induced hair growth inhibition. Real-time PCR confirmed a significant upregulation of TGF-beta2 transcripts in ATRA-treated hair bulbs. This study is the first to provide direct evidence that ATRA can indeed induce a catagen-like stage in human HF and suggests that this occurs, at least in part, via upregulation of TGF-beta2 in the DP. Therefore, topical TGF-beta2/TGF-beta receptor II antagonists deserve to be explored for the prevention and management of retinoid-induced hair lo
 

michael barry

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Harm,

Ive found that some researchers are finding green tea inhibits TGF-beta 1:


ELLAGIC ACID, AN ANTI-OXIDATIVE SUPPRESSOR OF TGF-&#946..."




ELLAGIC ACID, AN ANTI-OXIDATIVE SUPPRESSOR OF TGF-β1 PROLONGS ANAGEN PHASE OF MURINE HAIR FOLLICLES

Won-seok Park, Dae-seok Sung, Dae-kwon Kim, Chang-hoon Lee, Yong-chul Shim

AmorePacific R&D Center, Yongin-si, Korea

It has been recently reported that TGF-β plays a crucial role in follicular apoptosis in the catagen phase of murine and human hair follicles. At the cellular level, TGF-β inhibits proliferation of epithelial, endothelial and haematopoietic cells, regulates the differentiation of immune, neuronal, mesenchymal and epithelial cell types and modulates their apoptotic response.

We searched for an effective suppressor of TGF-β to delay catagen progression. We found that ellagic acid, known as an anti-oxidant, reduces cell death of HaCaT keratinocytes and PAI-1 proteins induced by TGF- β1. After hair depilation on 7 week-old female C57bl/6 mice, we topically applied 0.5% ellagic acid to the dorsal skin after 6 days. On the 14th day, catagen induction was measured by inner skin pigment using chromameter (L value) and by histological classification of the hair cycle. The group treated with 0.5% ellagic acid showed significantly lower L values and greater numbers of late anagen hair follicles than the vehicle group.

Ellagic acid may be effectively used to delay in vivo progression of catagen, which is a result of androgen & TGF- β signal pathways in androgenetic alopecia.



Me again........................I seem to remember reading "somewhere" that TGF beta 2 is also suppressed by green tea catechins.



Ryan,

If you see this, we know of a few inflammatory cytokines that are "bad for hair". Vitamin E in its tocopherol form and/or grape seed extract will inhibit one of them (PKC)

Curcumin (and possibly green tea extract) will inhibit 2 of them (TGF-beta and TNF-alpha)


Silica supposedly inhibits IL-1. Things that contain silica are lettuce, onions, most "in ground" veggies, etc. My multivitamin packet has some in it.


Two other foodstuffs that are "good for hair" are MSM and a form of vitamin C called abscorbyl palmitate. The B vitamin complex is generally thought of as being good for hair. Hair needs "some" zinc and copper also. Thats about it.
 

docj077

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Michael,

I found the following online in a research article a long time ago and I just haven't had time to post it on here. I thought you'd find it important as this is very current and demonstrates the current scientific understanding of the TGF/Smad pathway. Notice that Smad-7 inhibits the downstream effects of this pathway and an increase in Smad-7 is likely the result of the molecule trying to regulate any increase in TGF-beta.


TGFSMAD1.jpg



Something that you might also like to know is that TNF-alpha has recently been found to downregulate TGF-beta receptors in dermal fibroblasts. The title of the article is listed below if you want to look at it as you can find it through any search engine.

The Journal of Immunology, 2003, 171: 3855-3862.
Copyright © 2003 by The American Association of Immunologists

Antagonistic Effects of TNF- on TGF- Signaling Through Down-Regulation of TGF- Receptor Type II in Human Dermal Fibroblasts1


So, here's the problem. If a person takes a supplement that downregulates TNF-alpha, there will be nothing there to downregulate the TGF-beta receptor and stop TGF-beta signaling from occurring. So, the only means that we have of completely shutting down the TGF-beta pathway is to either block the TGF-beta receptor (some drugs in development???), bind TGF-beta (bromelain???), or block both TNF-alpha and TGF-beta (green tea or curcumin???).

We need to figure out a way to do this topically as prolonged use of TGF-beta antagonists internally is probably not a good idea due to its effects on healing and the possible development of other problems (somebody posted a link between decreased TGF-beta and the development of Alzhiemer's on this site recently...I think).
 

michael barry

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Doctor,

Pine bark extract (pine oil or cedarwood oil) for PKC...[url]http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entre ... med_docsum[/url]


I had an article from pubmed that I cant google for sh*t that described apple proantho's being able to suppress PKC, TGF beta 1 and TGF beta 2.


Barley proantho's suppress TGF-beta


Silica suppress IL-1 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/quer ... t=Abstract


You seem to be of the mind that suppressing TNF-alpha might up TGF-beta (more important). Let me ask you this.....................if a man is eating a green apple in the morning and in the night to suppress TGF beta, would it matter if he was suppressing TNF-alpha with fish oil, borage oil, or evening primrose oil?




Doctor,
I got a little nosy about the "old remedies" because of finding out about proanthocyandins a couple of years ago. Apple cider vinegar for hairloss, beer and eggs shampoo for hairloss, onion juice on the scalp for hairloss.

Each and every one of those, I NOW KNOW, should do something "good" for hair by means of inhibiting a particular growth inhibitor released by the papilla. There is alot of silcia in onions and sulfur also. Sulfur is good for hair. Beer not only has B3 proanthocyandins, but also has anti-androgenic hops (women who harvest hops have a delayed menstrual cycle, so there must be something estrogenic about them) as well as genistien and daidzien, eggs has copper, zinc, a ton of B-vitamins, sulfur, silica..................apple cider vinegar should have apple proanthocyandins.

Lavendar and tea tree oil induce gyno in boys who use it in body washes, indicating estrogenic activity. Lavendar and rosemary were used together in tons of old remedies. Lavendar can confuse the immune system in some people and get it to inflame a site, but rosemary http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/quer ... med_docsum is apparently a profoundly anti-inflammatory substance.



Doctor this stuff makes me wonder if we will find that other old remedies like chamomille, horsetail, and sage or thyme will inhibit other dermal papilla negative growth factors like FGF-5, thrombospondin, DKK-1, Il-2 and IL-5 (the last two get inhibited by roxytrhomicyn).


Of course, if we could just find a super-effective androgen receptor blocker with no side effects that could be added topically to shampoo, none of this would be necessary however.

For now, it looks like one might ditch a TNF-alpha inhibitor thought if they think it will interfere with TGF beta inhibition which is almost certainly the most important one.

Im also interested in prostaglandin analogues like evening primrose oil and GLA because of latanaprost. I imagine taken internally, these probably help hair growth to some degree.
 

abcdefg

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All I can say is hairs turning into sebaceous glands makes perfect sense to me. It totally explains why I have big chunks of white scalp or whatever thats not dandruff. Its also oily where im losing my hair, and the itch or inflammation might be caused by this process or the sebum. I think within 25 years science is going to own baldness. Propecia was a very big breakthrough towards science actually figuring something out.
 

abcdefg

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Would eating say like 4 green apples a day do anything for hairloss? in theory even green apples would right?
 

michael barry

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Doctor,
By the way............

Id love for some newbie to try topical apple cider vinegar mixed with green tea, onion juice, and beer, with perhpas some pine oil..............................after he wets his head for a shower, put in and leave on for five minutes, quickly shampoo out. Why do I think his hair might improve?

That should get TNF-alpha blocked up there, TGF beta one and two, PKC, IL-1, get sulfur to the follicle area, probably some vitamin C, and two anti-androgens (hops, alot of beta sis), and something that downregulates androgen receptor expression (genistein).

I know those substances should be in those products, but a carreir agent to get them to the papilla, and as far as how long in hours they would be effective I, of course, dont know.


Ive been putting a beer and green tea mix on a pinky finger for a few weeks to see if it will inbhibit hair growth there, will know in about three more months.


The one bad thing about beta sis is that Ive read that it ups TGF beta expression. I suppose if someone did a pine oil topical, they'd have to dilute the pine oil (you would have to do this anyway........its over 10 percent beta sis and has an overpowering pine smell, you'd smell like a pine tree) in beer or apple cider vindegar at about a one to ten or two to eight ratio. Add some green tea and onion juice to that mix, I imagine it would really help.


By the way.................I see you use honey in your shampoo. Ohter than being a strong anti-oxidant, does it supress anything or induce any of the known growth factors to overexpress themselves? Interesting. I bet its good.
 

abcdefg

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Is there anything to stop tgf beta ? I tried green tea it did nothing. I used the standard dose for like 6 months. Would curcumin do the trick?
 

abcdefg

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This research is very interesting. It kind of seems like a big piece of whats going on in my case. What is sebum exactly? Does it relate to having a very oily forehead and scalp? The hair turning into sebaceous glands due to androgens causes scalp and forehead to become more oily? This makes perfect sense to me. The white oily chunks I have on my head that never go away probably have to do with androgens? The fun thing with male pattern baldness is theres an endless list of questions and so few real answers. We are trying to put together a 5000 piece puzzle with 15 pieces.
 
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