Socks' story - (general thinning, pics included)
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socks
Experienced Member
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I'm a *FIRM* believer that if you think you're losing hair, you are. By time other people can notice it (family and friends NOT complete strangers) you already lost about 40% of your original density. By time the AVERAGE Joe on the Internet can spot ya as balding you lost even more. I always get a kick out of people telling me I dont have hairloss when I've lived with myself for 28yrs 
Yes I was thinning without a shadow of a doubt. When your own mom lets you know she can tell what room you've been in by "following the trial of your hair" and can point out a thinning spot right up the middle center of my scalp any possible doubt it was 'all in my head' went out the window. Hairloss runs VERY aggressively in my family. Every guy on my mother's dad's side is bald save one lone brother. What is even worse is 50% of the guys who lost their hair on my mom's side did so EXACTLY as I was. Thinning up front with an intact hairline which eventually progressed to a VERY diffused NW5 - NW6.
Fact is, I did something about it early. Fact is, I was willing to take what some may consider to be drastic steps to save my hair. The bottom line is, and the reason I post my updates, is to show even if you have aggressive hairloss in your family history, you always have choices. My choice was to save my hair and I did what I had to do.
I appreciate all the positive comments and even the constructive negative ones. However, some negative comments are just trite reeking of jealousy among other selfish emotions. That makes me sick :wink:
Yes I was thinning without a shadow of a doubt. When your own mom lets you know she can tell what room you've been in by "following the trial of your hair" and can point out a thinning spot right up the middle center of my scalp any possible doubt it was 'all in my head' went out the window. Hairloss runs VERY aggressively in my family. Every guy on my mother's dad's side is bald save one lone brother. What is even worse is 50% of the guys who lost their hair on my mom's side did so EXACTLY as I was. Thinning up front with an intact hairline which eventually progressed to a VERY diffused NW5 - NW6.
Fact is, I did something about it early. Fact is, I was willing to take what some may consider to be drastic steps to save my hair. The bottom line is, and the reason I post my updates, is to show even if you have aggressive hairloss in your family history, you always have choices. My choice was to save my hair and I did what I had to do.
I appreciate all the positive comments and even the constructive negative ones. However, some negative comments are just trite reeking of jealousy among other selfish emotions. That makes me sick :wink:
I agree with you socks 100%. I saw it coming back 10 years ago when rogaine was really the most noted treatment for hair loss and started then. rogaine as most noted is for regrowth but, its the only thing in my regiment (now starting to consider finasteride as I'm older now and see my front hair line and temples slowly receding).
I guarantee I would have a really bad hairline now if I hadn't started fighting it back then.
I guarantee I would have a really bad hairline now if I hadn't started fighting it back then.
cassin,
transvestites take oral spironolactone to feminize themself. At 100-200mg/day, it starts reducing testosterone production drastically. This is good for hair loss and men like holyhair, and I think socks has the same goals. It is not for most guys, but is an option for men who want to look like women. I'd advise people to research it thuroughly before using it. Doctors should know a lot about old spironolactone.
transvestites take oral spironolactone to feminize themself. At 100-200mg/day, it starts reducing testosterone production drastically. This is good for hair loss and men like holyhair, and I think socks has the same goals. It is not for most guys, but is an option for men who want to look like women. I'd advise people to research it thuroughly before using it. Doctors should know a lot about old spironolactone.
socks
Experienced Member
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I've been on 200mg for a year now. No feminizing effects or lasting sexual side-effects. It is AMAZING to me how many guys can be so ignorant in regard to certain treatments. There is VERY few studies on men taking spironolactone for hairloss yet some guys here like to pass it off as gospil that spironolactone will cause your ding-dong to fall off and breasts to sprout.
Men who are transsexuals DO NOT take spironolactone by itself as spironolactone by itself isnt going to have the desired effect. Transsexuals usually combine spironolactone & finasteride with estrogen thearapy. Eventually, some men will take it as far as castration and sexual reassignment surgery... Yet still most transgender men still look a lot like men despite all the pre-mentioned measures. Serious transgender men must turn to plastic surgery to 'complete' the transformation.
Men who are transsexuals DO NOT take spironolactone by itself as spironolactone by itself isnt going to have the desired effect. Transsexuals usually combine spironolactone & finasteride with estrogen thearapy. Eventually, some men will take it as far as castration and sexual reassignment surgery... Yet still most transgender men still look a lot like men despite all the pre-mentioned measures. Serious transgender men must turn to plastic surgery to 'complete' the transformation.
docj077
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Socks,
I'm sort of new around here, so you probably don't know me very well. Take the following to heart. It's from mdconsult.com and is basically a physicans desk reference that is updated daily as new studies come in.
Be careful with this stuff. This study was in rats, but there is now a big huge headline that accompanies this drug on mdconsult.com that basically says extended usage of medium to high doses of this drug are no longer recommended.
Doesn't mean you should stop taking it. It means you just need to be aware of what the studies are showing.
As for the mechanism of action, it's a aldosterone receptor inhibitor that binds to the sodium-potassium exchange sites in the distal convoluted tubule. Basically, more sodium out = lowered blood pressure. Wherever salt goes, water goes in the body.
Carcinogenesis, Mutagenesis, and Impairment of Fertility
Carcinogenesis, mutagenesis, impairment of fertility: Orally administered spironolactone has been shown to be a tumorigen in dietary administration studies performed in rats, with its proliferative effects manifested on endocrine organs and the liver. In an 18 month study using doses of about 50, 150 and 500 mg/kg/day, there were statistically significant increases in benign adenomas of the thyroid and testes and, in male rats, a dose-related increase in proliferative changes in the liver (including hepatocytomegaly and hyperplastic nodules). In a 24 month study in which the same strain of rat was administered doses of about 10, 30, 100 and 150 mg spironolactone/kg/day, the range of proliferative effects included significant increases in hepatocellular adenomas and testicular interstitial cell tumors in males, and significant increases in thyroid follicular cell adenomas and carcinomas in both sexes. There was also a statistically significant, but not dose-related, increase in benign uterine endometrial stromal polyps in females. A dose-related (above 20 mg/kg/day) incidence of myelocytic leukemia was observed in rats fed daily doses of potassium canrenoate (a compound chemically similar to spironolactone and whose primary metabolite, canrenone, is also a major product of spironolactone in man) for a period of 1 year. In 2 year studies in the rat, oral administration of potassium canrenoate was associated with myelocytic leukemia and hepatic, thyroid, testicular and mammary tumors.
Neither spironolactone nor potassium canrenoate produced mutagenic effects in tests using bacteria or yeast. In the absence of metabolic activation, neither spironolactone nor potassium canrenoate has been shown to be mutagenic in mammalian tests in vitro. In the presence of metabolic activation, spironolactone has been reported to be negative in some mammalian mutagenicity tests in vitro and inconclusive (but slightly positive) for mutagenicity in other mammalian tests in vitro. In the presence of metabolic activation, potassium canrenoate has been reported to test positive for mutagenicity in some mammalian tests in vitro, inconclusive in others, and negative in still others.
In a 3-litter reproduction study in which female rats received dietary doses of 15 and 50 mg spironolactone/kg/day, there were no effects on mating and fertility, but there was a small increase in incidence of stillborn pups at 50 mg/kg/day. When injected into female rats (100 mg/kg/day for 7 days, i.p.), spironolactone was found to increase the length of the estrous cycle by prolonging diestrus during treatment and inducing constant diestrus during a 2 week posttreatment observation period. These effects were associated with retarded ovarian follicle development and a reduction in circulating estrogen levels, which would be expected to impair mating, fertility and fecundity. Spironolactone (100 mg/kg/day), administered i.p. to female mice during a 2 week cohabitation period with untreated males, decreased the number of mated mice that conceived (effect shown to be caused by an inhibition of ovulation) and decreased the number of implanted embryos in those that became pregnant (effect shown to be caused by an inhibition of implantation), and at 200 mg/kg, also increased the latency period to mating.
I'm sort of new around here, so you probably don't know me very well. Take the following to heart. It's from mdconsult.com and is basically a physicans desk reference that is updated daily as new studies come in.
Be careful with this stuff. This study was in rats, but there is now a big huge headline that accompanies this drug on mdconsult.com that basically says extended usage of medium to high doses of this drug are no longer recommended.
Doesn't mean you should stop taking it. It means you just need to be aware of what the studies are showing.
As for the mechanism of action, it's a aldosterone receptor inhibitor that binds to the sodium-potassium exchange sites in the distal convoluted tubule. Basically, more sodium out = lowered blood pressure. Wherever salt goes, water goes in the body.
Carcinogenesis, Mutagenesis, and Impairment of Fertility
Carcinogenesis, mutagenesis, impairment of fertility: Orally administered spironolactone has been shown to be a tumorigen in dietary administration studies performed in rats, with its proliferative effects manifested on endocrine organs and the liver. In an 18 month study using doses of about 50, 150 and 500 mg/kg/day, there were statistically significant increases in benign adenomas of the thyroid and testes and, in male rats, a dose-related increase in proliferative changes in the liver (including hepatocytomegaly and hyperplastic nodules). In a 24 month study in which the same strain of rat was administered doses of about 10, 30, 100 and 150 mg spironolactone/kg/day, the range of proliferative effects included significant increases in hepatocellular adenomas and testicular interstitial cell tumors in males, and significant increases in thyroid follicular cell adenomas and carcinomas in both sexes. There was also a statistically significant, but not dose-related, increase in benign uterine endometrial stromal polyps in females. A dose-related (above 20 mg/kg/day) incidence of myelocytic leukemia was observed in rats fed daily doses of potassium canrenoate (a compound chemically similar to spironolactone and whose primary metabolite, canrenone, is also a major product of spironolactone in man) for a period of 1 year. In 2 year studies in the rat, oral administration of potassium canrenoate was associated with myelocytic leukemia and hepatic, thyroid, testicular and mammary tumors.
Neither spironolactone nor potassium canrenoate produced mutagenic effects in tests using bacteria or yeast. In the absence of metabolic activation, neither spironolactone nor potassium canrenoate has been shown to be mutagenic in mammalian tests in vitro. In the presence of metabolic activation, spironolactone has been reported to be negative in some mammalian mutagenicity tests in vitro and inconclusive (but slightly positive) for mutagenicity in other mammalian tests in vitro. In the presence of metabolic activation, potassium canrenoate has been reported to test positive for mutagenicity in some mammalian tests in vitro, inconclusive in others, and negative in still others.
In a 3-litter reproduction study in which female rats received dietary doses of 15 and 50 mg spironolactone/kg/day, there were no effects on mating and fertility, but there was a small increase in incidence of stillborn pups at 50 mg/kg/day. When injected into female rats (100 mg/kg/day for 7 days, i.p.), spironolactone was found to increase the length of the estrous cycle by prolonging diestrus during treatment and inducing constant diestrus during a 2 week posttreatment observation period. These effects were associated with retarded ovarian follicle development and a reduction in circulating estrogen levels, which would be expected to impair mating, fertility and fecundity. Spironolactone (100 mg/kg/day), administered i.p. to female mice during a 2 week cohabitation period with untreated males, decreased the number of mated mice that conceived (effect shown to be caused by an inhibition of ovulation) and decreased the number of implanted embryos in those that became pregnant (effect shown to be caused by an inhibition of implantation), and at 200 mg/kg, also increased the latency period to mating.
socks
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collegechemistrystudent said:
spironolactone does several things... As far as hairloss, it decreases testosterone production of the adrenal glands as well as bind to androgen receptors thereby decreasing the influence of androgens in your body's tissues.
socks
Experienced Member
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Docj077,
You are right that spironolactone has been shown to be carcinogenic in rats when used at 4x - 8x the recommended mg/kg dose. However, rats arent always the best test subjects when it comes to predicting possible human side-effects... Rats are classically prone to developing cancer.
The same test was done on mice and monkeys with no carcinogenic effects... Besides, the conversion of mg/kg of the rat study would entail a human taking between 2g - 4g of spironolactone daily... That would be like 20 - 40 100mg pills.... That is a LOT of spironolactone
You are right that spironolactone has been shown to be carcinogenic in rats when used at 4x - 8x the recommended mg/kg dose. However, rats arent always the best test subjects when it comes to predicting possible human side-effects... Rats are classically prone to developing cancer.
The same test was done on mice and monkeys with no carcinogenic effects... Besides, the conversion of mg/kg of the rat study would entail a human taking between 2g - 4g of spironolactone daily... That would be like 20 - 40 100mg pills.... That is a LOT of spironolactone
docj077
Senior Member
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socks said:Docj077,
You are right that spironolactone has been shown to be carcinogenic in rats when used at 4x - 8x the recommended mg/kg dose. However, rats arent always the best test subjects when it comes to predicting possible human side-effects... Rats are classically prone to developing cancer.
The same test was done on mice and monkeys with no carcinogenic effects... Besides, the conversion of mg/kg of the rat study would entail a human taking between 2g - 4g of spironolactone daily... That would be like 20 - 40 100mg pills.... That is a LOT of spironolactone
I was just looking out for you. I know you're using low doses. Just don't want you to get into trouble with the stuff and I figured that you'd want to know that they'd flagged it for doctors now.
G
Guest
Guest
100 mg is a low dose?
G
Guest
Guest
Aplunk1 said:
Aplunk,
Does 50 mg a day of spironolactone mean a low chance of gyno? Is it still beneficial at androgen blocking at this dosage in an oral form?
Thanks.
LookingGood!
Experienced Member
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I think this guy has OCD. He is a NW1 at best. I think he fails to realize that hair grows in cycles and there are some hairs that go thru the telogen phase but to put ur body at risk with oral spironolactone is absolutely over the top. I just worry about down and out newbies desparate for a solution to hairloss looking at this guy as a hero. Its scary!!!
yeah, he is OCD because he wants to keep from going bald, and regrew a lot of hair with his regimen.
Anyway, when spironolactone is metabolised internally, it is no longer an anti-androgen. and it has a half life of 10 minutes. The topical effects Jayman wants internally just won't happen internally. And if they do occur, they will affect the whole body. If you want to block androgen receptors with an internal, take flutamide. But like all internals, it works almost everywhere, except maybe the other side of the blood brain barrior. one of bryan's friends took 750mg once and could barely crawl out of bed out of that. almost killed him. remember that just because some guy on HLH said his uncle who is a pharmacist says 750mg is OK because he prescribes it cancer patients, those patients were in the late stages of an adrogen activated life threatening cancer and were in hospital beds and monitored carefully.
If you do take flutamide internally, consider 1mLx5% = 50mg. The study that gave that much to some test studies did not jump out with a list of side effects, though the point of the study was just to see how much was absorbed. The study did not measure hair growth, so this dose may be two small to help hair. I would think that any dose that helps hair will have severe effects on the rest of the body, though some guys get results from topical flutamide, so maybe there is an ideal amount. Again, probably at 50mg/day. or maybe 25mg since they probably wash it off before 4 hours.
Anyway, when spironolactone is metabolised internally, it is no longer an anti-androgen. and it has a half life of 10 minutes. The topical effects Jayman wants internally just won't happen internally. And if they do occur, they will affect the whole body. If you want to block androgen receptors with an internal, take flutamide. But like all internals, it works almost everywhere, except maybe the other side of the blood brain barrior. one of bryan's friends took 750mg once and could barely crawl out of bed out of that. almost killed him. remember that just because some guy on HLH said his uncle who is a pharmacist says 750mg is OK because he prescribes it cancer patients, those patients were in the late stages of an adrogen activated life threatening cancer and were in hospital beds and monitored carefully.
If you do take flutamide internally, consider 1mLx5% = 50mg. The study that gave that much to some test studies did not jump out with a list of side effects, though the point of the study was just to see how much was absorbed. The study did not measure hair growth, so this dose may be two small to help hair. I would think that any dose that helps hair will have severe effects on the rest of the body, though some guys get results from topical flutamide, so maybe there is an ideal amount. Again, probably at 50mg/day. or maybe 25mg since they probably wash it off before 4 hours.
I'm not sure if androgen receptors will addapt to it, though. scary thought. but flutamide only works systemically, not locally. spironolactone only works as an AR blocker locally, not systemically, except maybe at very high doses. I think oral spironolactone is used for lowering testosterone production, though not sure.
If you can lower your testosterone enough to affect hair loss, good luck building muscle. Women could build more muscle if they would just lift, but I doubt they are capable of building nearly as much as men can.
If you can lower your testosterone enough to affect hair loss, good luck building muscle. Women could build more muscle if they would just lift, but I doubt they are capable of building nearly as much as men can.
LookingGood!
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collegechemistrystudent said:
So then he will lower his BP and possibly stroke out????? Come on now. Hair isnt worth compromising ur cardiovascular system. Maybe no sides now but who knows what the future holds.