some evolutionary theory for hair loss topics

[Beto]

Sorry I posted this previously in Tell your story. I realize now that this forum si best suited to this message.
I have read several reports on DHT production blocking substances. It seems that many molecules, from certain aminoacids and vitamins, to oily acids such as linoleic and linolenic, etc, etc, have shown to block 5-alfa-reductase activity in vitro. From these reports, some people have marketed products with the implicit assumption that they will show the same blocking property in vivo. Thing is, this fact is very unlilekly from an evolutionary point of view. Here is my theory: DHT is essential in humans, as it has been shown to have same properties as Testosterone. In fact, it has been said that DHT is just an amplificated Testosterone. The exact regulation of T and DHT (both in time and tissues) is essential for human reproduction, as is involved in the devolopment of sex related organs and functions. A biochemical system such as this, is so critical, that it must have evolved in such a way so as to be protected from blocking by common substances find in vegetables, seed, meat, etc, in short, in common foods. The biochemical system in humans thus, must have evolved some pathways by which potentially blocking substances, are either destroyed or itself blocked by internal molecules to render them safe for the T-DHT system. Wth this in mind, it is merely a useless hope to expect that, for example, linolenic acid, would be an effective 5-alfa-r blocker in vivo, as it is found in basically any vegetable oil you may think of.

 

[So]

I hear what you are saying however in higher concentrates (extracts) than what is normally found in food for example, such molecules (as you put it) may be effective in reducing DHT.

If you stand by your theory, then why would Finasteride be any different?

 

[HARM1]

Sorry I posted this previously in Tell your story. I realize now that this forum si best suited to this message.
I have read several reports on DHT production blocking substances. It seems that many molecules, from certain aminoacids and vitamins, to oily acids such as linoleic and linolenic, etc, etc, have shown to block 5-alfa-reductase activity in vitro. From these reports, some people have marketed products with the implicit assumption that they will show the same blocking property in vivo. Thing is, this fact is very unlilekly from an evolutionary point of view. Here is my theory: DHT is essential in humans, as it has been shown to have same properties as Testosterone. In fact, it has been said that DHT is just an amplificated Testosterone. The exact regulation of T and DHT (both in time and tissues) is essential for human reproduction, as is involved in the devolopment of sex related organs and functions. A biochemical system such as this, is so critical, that it must have evolved in such a way so as to be protected from blocking by common substances find in vegetables, seed, meat, etc, in short, in common foods. The biochemical system in humans thus, must have evolved some pathways by which potentially blocking substances, are either destroyed or itself blocked by internal molecules to render them safe for the T-DHT system. Wth this in mind, it is merely a useless hope to expect that, for example, linolenic acid, would be an effective 5-alfa-r blocker in vivo, as it is found in basically any vegetable oil you may think of.

A few things: first of all, nice thinking! <:
Eating and topical use, are different. digestion is a long process that usually changes chemical structures, and so that could be your" pathways by which potentially blocking substances, are either destroyed or itself blocked by internal molecules to render them safe for the T-DHT system"

Topical ussage would skip over that obstacle.

I don't know if this is the case with the acid you wrote about, but that can easally be checked.
AND A PROOF for a bypass of the bodies so called protaction system( of DHT), if one is really present, is soy- it can put down DHT levels in the body.

My explenation in reference to your idea: accross time humens did not expose the body to enough of DHT lowering substances, or not potent enough( hey look how hard we are looking ), and so DHT was never put down to a level where the body did not get the affects it needs from DHT, so no really strong " anti - anti dht" mechanism - was formed.

 

[Bryan]

I have read several reports on DHT production blocking substances. It seems that many molecules, from certain aminoacids and vitamins, to oily acids such as linoleic and linolenic, etc, etc, have shown to block 5-alfa-reductase activity in vitro. From these reports, some people have marketed products with the implicit assumption that they will show the same blocking property in vivo. Thing is, this fact is very unlilekly from an evolutionary point of view.

I don't recall ever hearing claims that amino acids inhibit 5a-reductase. It's well-known, however, that certain fatty acids can do that, but the oral consumption of those fatty acids wouldn't work. They would have to be present in higher amounts than what you could get just through the diet. On the other hand, the topical application of the fatty acids in their free form to the skin or scalp could quite possibly be effective at inhibiting the production of DHT, by flooding the area with a sufficient quantity of the fatty acid.

Bryan

 

[Beto]

I hear what you are saying however in higher concentrates (extracts) than what is normally found in food for example, such molecules (as you put it) may be effective in reducing DHT.

If you stand by your theory, then why would Finasteride be any different?

Substances are divided into:
1. natural: any substance find in nature
2. artificial: any substance not found in nature
A natural substance can be also sinthetic: a natural substance sinthesized in a lab.
Finasteride is completely artificial. Never before existed in nature. So it is possible that the T-DHT system is not protected against such a molecule.

On the other hand, 5 alfa reductase is found in many tissues. DHT production seem to be widespread in the human body, and its effect are completely systemic: DHT would make possible the expresion of certain genes (in many tissues) that would carry, among other things, the destruction of hair follicles (not all of them: only the ones targeted). What are those molecules sinthesized by the newly expressed genes mediated by DHT?. Probably some kind of peptides. Thus, thinking in blocking 5 alfa r topically (in the scalp) is just like puting off a fire in one room, while the rest of the building is being devored by a giant fire. The action of the 5 alfa r blockers must be systemic, otherwise the battle is lost. Thus why finsteride has been the most succesful molecule so far. Obviuosly there other things that come into play. I am taking vitamins and a strong suplement of sulfur-aminoacids, which are making a whole lot of difference in may hair too.

regards, Beto

 

[mumuka]

Beto i read in your regimen that you use nettle extract lotion.Any story on why are you using this product?

 

[Beto]

Beto i read in your regimen that you use nettle extract lotion.Any story on why are you using this product?

Well, it has been said that nettle extracts have some interesting protecting properties on hair follicles. Some studies showed 5alfa reductase inhibition, and the extract may also have some unknown molecules also.
I started using it just by chance. After one month of use with no results, I dropped the treatment; just to find, three weeks later, an unbelievable improving of my whole scalp and hair condition. I started using it again, and the results are showing again. But this time, more slowly. Difficult to tell, wether it is it, minoxidil or finasteride, who knows. The product sold here in Argentina is really nice, good parfume, aconditioning properties and no side effects on the scalp.
Besides, I my self do my prescription for the minoxidil lotion. A friend (chemist and pharmacist) prepares my prescription lotion: 4 % minoxidil, 8 % pantenol, 30 % polietilenglicol and 45 % alcohol. Cost: 10 dollars for a 200 ml bottle.

 

[Beto]

[I don't recall ever hearing claims that amino acids inhibit 5a-reductase. It's well-known, however, that certain fatty acids can do that, but the oral consumption of those fatty acids wouldn't work. They would have to be present in higher amounts than what you could get just through the diet. On the other hand, the topical application of the fatty acids in their free form to the skin or scalp could quite possibly be effective at inhibiting the production of DHT, by flooding the area with a sufficient quantity of the fatty acid.

Bryan[/quote]

Yes, you are right on this, but inhibiting DHT production in the scalp, doesn´t mean DHT is not being produced somewhere else in the body. And, as with any hormone, you just need a minimum amount to have a noticeable effect far from the producing tissues. DHT mediates the expression of genes presents in many other cell of the body. The products of those genes will travel in the blood and perform the unwanted effects in the scalp:wether a direct effect, or indirect via specific formation of antibodies targeted to some molecule present in the hair follicles.

regards, beto

PS: keep saying that there must be a single element that can do a great job for the hair. Do you guys have those periods in which your scalp looks really good?

 

[Bryan]

Yes, you are right on this, but inhibiting DHT production in the scalp, doesn´t mean DHT is not being produced somewhere else in the body. And, as with any hormone, you just need a minimum amount to have a noticeable effect far from the producing tissues.

I've spent many years on hairloss forums discussing the issue of the extent to which serum DHT plays a role in hairloss, compared to "locally" produced DHT within the hair follicle. I feel there are good reasons to think that "local" DHT is considerably more important than serum DHT. One reason is that the topical application of 5a-reductase inhibitors in both humans and animals is effective at suppressing local sebaceous gland function (why wouldn't serum DHT be able to stimulate sebaceous glands, just like you think it does hair follicles? ). Another reason is that serum DHT is metabolized and eliminated from the bloodstream surprisingly quickly. It just isn't capable of having much of an endocrine role in the body, in my opinion.

DHT mediates the expression of genes presents in many other cell of the body. The products of those genes will travel in the blood and perform the unwanted effects in the scalp:wether a direct effect, or indirect via specific formation of antibodies targeted to some molecule present in the hair follicles.

I think that's an extraordinarily unlikely theory. I challenge you to find some serious scientific evidence for that!

Bryan

 

[SkipTracer]

So Bryan? are you saying.

A That liberating used cooking fat from the local chip shop is good for hairloss.

OR

B Cottaging in the local public toilet is good for hairloss.

?

 

[mumuka]

Beto,this is off topic but i asked you about the nettles because ...well ..here is why: something like 20 years ago i read a book written by Maria Treben who is some kind of herbalist who treats every disease with a plant. Hairloss is there too... She is recomending washing hair with stinging nettle lotion but the best is stinging nettle root tincture 2 times a day. She was saying that over the years a lot of people regrew their hairs with the stinging nettle root tincture ,she was really swearing by it. Keep in mind read that around 20 years ago... Thats why i was so curious about your stinging nettle story.

I will give a shot to the stinging nettle root tincture ,just for fun and just because i can make it myself,its very easy.. :wink: