Stem cell research is a beaut!! Are you voting for Kerry?

[ColtsFan]

oh and by the way regarding the Iraq warplan, its very easy to be an arm chair quarterback, not to mention hind sight is always 20/20...

Let us know how you would have dealt with it and when you are running for office.

 

[Matgallis]

wow I have to say this has been the most intelligent/civil debate I have seen on the e-net involving politics. I normally just read bashing instead of facts/intelligent opinions that are well thought out.


I appreciate that, I was actually able to pick up on things I didn't know....


Oh and I believe that our society isn't exactly as bad as we are being told by the media. just imagine if they had tv or news in 16th century... that world was sure fucked up then. It just feels as if there is no hope, I sure feel that at times.

 

[Jaygee]

Matgallis---you're right. Imagine if there had been TV during the Crusades.

 

[The Gardener]

Gardener,

Your anti-corporation drivel goes over well with the blue collar crowd, and I can understand that they need a scape goat president to vent against.

But let me ask you something, who the hell employs millions of people in this country?

That would be major corporations. So if you want to see this counrty really go into an economic tail spin then take away those corporate tax breaks and see them start laying off people and closing there doors because they have no insentive to expand.

You may hate the rich but if there werent rich people then nobody would be buying anything.

How do think the guy that builds Escalades for GM in Detroit would make a living if the corporate guy closed his doors?

People have the ability to be re-trained in other livlihoods, but they would rather b**ch and complain about rich people than get a student loan and go back to school.

Bitching about people who are successful in corporate America is no way to further your own future success. This is America and you are free to chastise the system that millions of people died for, but if you prefer a more socialist/communist form of government and society that has proven to fail everywhere, then feel free to hop on a plane to N Korea or Cuba. They would be glad to have you comrad....

Coltsfan, I'm a finance director at a large electronics company, and, I am NOT a democrat. Not a republican either, so don't broad-brush me. I'm not your typical liberal, and I'm not your typical conservative. I'm more of the John McCain type.

I did not b**ch against people who have been successful in Corporate America, I bitched about people who cheat to be successful in Corporate America. Big difference. I have been blessed by Corporate America, I have a well-compensated white-collar job because I worked hard, paid for my own post-graduate education, and earned my position. I did not cheat.

Please tell me where in my posting where I said ANYTHING about trying to change tax policy to hurt corporations. Tell me where. If you can point out any quote, any line, any word, where I say that the government is too harsh on corporations then I'll buy you a steak dinner.

What I did say, to clarify and correct your innuendo, is I am pissed off at companies that do business in the United States, enjoy the benefits of good American governance, good American infrastructure, and a good American workforce, but choose to set up their 'corporate headquarters' in places such as Bermuda so they can avoid paying their fair share of taxes. Certainly a 'patriot' as yourself would not find it fair for someone to enjoy the bounties of America without paying American taxes, no? If not, then you must also be in favor of some of the illegal immigrants, who pay no taxes yet sneak over here deliberately to have kids in our nice hospitals. Kozlowski is no better, just in a different social strata.

(To clarify my last comment, I am only mad at the immigrants who come here deliberately to take advantage of our social services, not the ones who come here with honest intentions.)

Capitalism is supposed to be about competition. Not about governments showing favoritism towards certain companies for political support. THAT is my point... I think I am more capitalist than YOU. I believe that companies should not need handouts from the government in order to artificially boost their competitiveness. Just as Adam Smith said, they have to prove their viability on the open market.

 

[ColtsFan]

gardener,

The point I was trying to make and I appolgize for broad brushing any affiliation be it dem, gop, or indi, is that a lot of people who slam America for its going corporate dont realize that or fail to accept that major corps, and there certainly are a lot of evil ones, provide a confortable living and prosperous future for their kids.

They want to go back to the days of mom and pop business's and I liked it better that way too, but the reality is corps are vital, and the public sector is vitalas well. But there is every bit as much graft and cheating going on in the public sector, if not more ( Ive seen the guy in the new Caddy pulling out his food stamps) than in the private sector.


I agree that American companies should be stationed in America, but the problem is two fold. One: these business's have to compete. If comp A is saving millions overseas, then what is company B going to do to compete with that? Its a nast domino effect and I agree w/ you. Something has to be done to give Amercan corps insentive to stay here. Secondly: they (GM, Ford whoever) and the unions in particular have priced themselves into a corner by paying janitors $20/hr to push a broom. There was a time where unions were essential, back when people were force to work 60 hr weeks and conditions were horrible. But since the days of their neccessity they have become essentialy organized mobs, looking to steer public policy and political agendas.Their demands have forced a lot of companies to seek cost savings by going overseas.


Any way thats all I got, didnt mean cause a fire storm.

 

[Guest]

The main thing that must be addressed in the next election is the whole outsourcing of jobs. Firt of all, we need to get out of NAFTA, then f*** over the WTO. Job's need to stay here. I don't understand why these companies are outsourcing all these jobs when they are making profits in the hundred millions and billions.

 

[Vampa]

Well it's nice to see this degenerate into a political battle...

Anyway, even if a Kerry administration could somehow speed up a cure for baldness, I still wouldn't vote for him. I'd love to have a perfect hairline, but that one issue isn't enough for me to vote for him considering all of my other views fall into the Republican party-line (for the most part, at least).

 

[Wezz]

lol, this terry guy is going to find cure for hairloss when he has a hair of 10 year older ? :roll:


:roll:

 

[jason566]

Actually John Kerry defended some patients in the 1970's when he as a lawyer for having bad hair transplants done it was a lawsuit kerry defedned the bad transplant vitims against the doctors etc. I read this in newsweek a few months back its all true ..so kerry does have some compassion for those balding maybe..lol

and about coporate taxes i think the point is..corporations dont really pay taxes and they in fact trasnfer that cost onto the majority..and rich are few and spare me some bs philosophy of coporations give job blah blah blah..in fact without the lowerin level employees those same companys wouldnt even be in business and have there cushy desk jobs..so maybe someone needs to reevualute there view of world structure rather than spitting the same line were taugth from kindergarten to adulthood

 

[The Gardener]

and about coporate taxes i think the point is..corporations dont really pay taxes and they in fact trasnfer that cost onto the majority..and rich are few and spare me some bs philosophy of coporations give job blah blah blah..

Corporations do pay taxes, they pay significant taxes. They pay HALF of the employee's payroll tax, and HALF of the cost of social security for all of their employees, and are required to provide employees basic insurance. Medium to large corporations are also required by law to provide health benefits. Did you know that for every dollar a corporation spends on employee salary, they pay on average an additional 30 cents on taxes and government-required benefits for employees?

And on top of that, who really GETS the money that corporations earn? Where do the profits go? Well, they go to the stockholders of the corporations. And guess what, those stockholders have to pay an ADDITIONAL tax on their dividend income, or their capital gains. In effect, corporations are taxed three ways, they pay half the taxes of their employees, then pay taxes on their profits, then the remaining profits that are realized by their stockholders are once again taxed. All in all, I think corporations are definitely pulling their weight when it comes to taxes. In fact, they are probably pulling MORE than their weight.

The thing that bothers me are those corporations, or corporate executives in particular, who try immoral manouvers to get around shouldering their financial responsibilities in exchange for doing business in the United States.


PS - to ColtsFan: You didn't cause a firestorm... this is a forum and on all topics we discuss here all opinions are respected. Maybe our jousting of ideas will open minds of people who were previously uninterested in politics. I have tenfold more respect debating you, a person with opinions who obviously pays attention to what is going on than a person who could give two shits about the future. Nothing personal, bud, this is supposed to be fun debate so let it fly, whether it be issues related to hairloss or otherwise.

 

[jason566]

Imnot sure if your in the usa or not but employers are not required to pay health benefits..Imy job doesw not offer health coverage so im not sure what u mean all emplyoers offer health benefits unless u mean injury on the job or something my workplace..and noit every eployer offers sick leave etc..but in my honest opinion if a corporation can afford to pay out its employees fair wages why not do so/..and that includes health benfits..why must mjaoprity shareholders be the primary concern and not the people helping build the company..and corporations are recgonized as indviduals in law so in truth being there extremely wealthy indviduals they should pay more taxes

 

[Bismarck]

The thing that bothers me are those corporations, or corporate executives in particular, who try immoral manouvers to get around shouldering their financial responsibilities in exchange for doing business in the United States.

Sad but true. But Gardener, what would you do against that. If some industries weren't supported they would leave the country or die out. It's a dilemma sitation of industrial countries in todays globalisation....

BISMARCK

 

[Odelay]

Since everyone has cooled off now time to tick everyone off again :lol: .

I don't agree with with republicans on many issues so labling me a concervative would insult those that are. I find many of the moral stands like gay marriage and abortion that republicans take to be harsh and unfair in a country that was founded on the freedom of choice. On the otherhand though I find it very hard to find much truth in the opinions of Democrats and feel that Independents can't even find the best of both sides and end up getting things all confused. So needless to say I am a mutt without a home in the political party system.

I feel that the fact news is so easily transmitted and available to the masses that President Bush is getting a lot of flack that is undeserved. Like someone said earlier it is simple to look a past events and decide what the best course of action would be, just like it's always easier to pick the winning lottery numbers after they have had the drawing. Even great leaders like F.D.R. made costly mistakes that caused many more deaths than decisions President Bush has made, but back then you would not have 8 different news stations analyzing every choice within an hour or two. People think that Kerry is going to be different, but they are sadly mistaken. It has been 2 1/2 years and there has not been another terrorist attack in this country due in large part to the fact we took the battle to them which forced the terrorists to go on the defensive. We all know what happens when terrorists have years of uninterrupted time to plan attacks, and by backing out now like Kerry claims he will do, we will be giving them time to once again plot more horrific attacks.

 

[Slartibartfast]

The thing that bothers me are those corporations, or corporate executives in particular, who try immoral manouvers to get around shouldering their financial responsibilities in exchange for doing business in the United States.

Sad but true. But Gardener, what would you do against that.

Well you could alter the tax law so that any revenues earned in the US are subject to American taxation irrespective of where the company's headquarters are located.

If some industries weren't supported they would leave the country or die out. It's a dilemma sitation of industrial countries in todays globalisation....

In my view if a Government is concerned about one sector of the economy, be it ship-building, steel production or manufacturing as a whole, then it should be supported through the tax system rather than with subsidies or protectionist policies. If that industry still can't compete with foreign rivals despite ultra low, or even zero, rates of taxation then it's time to accept that it's doomed and that in the long-run your country will be better off if the capital, land, labour etc that it currently uses are available for other, more profitable, sectors of the economy.

Slarti

 

[ColtsFan]

The Gardener,

hey we're cool, at least we do agree on red wine and spironolactone.....