Steroids - WIll this work

[Guest]

Docj,

does using avodart for male pattern baldness in your opinion constitute using a drug for purposes other than it was intended?

 

[docj077]

Docj,

does using avodart for male pattern baldness in your opinion constitute using a drug for purposes other than it was intended?

No. Avodart was designed to do exactly what it does (5AR inhibition) and will eventually be FDA approved for male pattern baldness or else it will be replaced by a more potent drug that does the exact same thing. Its off-label indication is for male pattern baldness and doctors prescribe it for such reasons.

Steroids, on the other hand, will never be FDA approved for bodybuilding and physicians are not even supposed to prescribe steroids for such off-label indications. It isn't illegal for physicians to prescribe them, but is a definite violation of the hippocratic oath to do so.

Steroids are designed and distributed to help people with hormonal imbalances or deficiencies. They are not designed to hurt people with an already underlying psychological disorder. That is what hard work in the gym and psychotherapy are for...to cure an already underlying mental problem.


If you've been reading this, you'll see the mindset of an addict quite well. Denial and defensive posturing are literally choking the life out of this thread and it isn't entertaining to read like somebody else said above. In fact, it's quite sad.

 

[Guest]

gotcha.

Doctor, totally off topic,

but since this thread sucks anyway,

what do you think of ADHD and docs prescribing medications for it? Do you think it's overdiagnosed in the US?

 

[odin2007]

Re: Funny thread!!!

What a comical thread!!! Docj077 your are naive and clueless (and some others out there)...I'm embarrassed for you if you actually have a PHD.

Guys, why bother to even have a reasonable discussion with him.

Here's a little video for you "Doctor"!! It sums things up pretty well.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-2754168929523377644&q=real+sports+steroids

How many times have you seen FDA approved drugs pushed by Dr.'s that get pulled because of great harm and death. Millions of people who take steriods every year are dropping like flies!!...what an epidemic!!! There's a higher risk in dying in a car accident!!! The naive american general public is ignorant and brainwashable!!

There isn't much more to say or discuss about this but educated yourself!!!!!

<sarcasm> Oh man, you're right. It is hell-arious!!! How could I have missed the Three Stooges-like adventures of my fellow forumites and myself by simply posting facts when everybody else likes posting secondhand information from their favorite bodybuilding website or google, their experiences in a medical system that they've never seen the inside of, or their own personal opinion regarding the pharmaceutical industry when they have no idea how the drug market really works? <sarcasm>

What's even better is that this thread is filled with people that are either abusing drugs or defending those that are abusing drugs. That's a shame, because those people that need to be cut, huge, or whatever aren't doing it because they want to look good. They are doing it, because they NEED to look good. That's the very essence of body dismorphic disorder...a debilitating disorder that can lead to often fatal physiological decisions.

When it comes to using drugs for anything other than what they should be used for, there are three choices:

You abuse the drug, but you're too ignorant to know that it's illegal...you're a criminal.

You abuse the drug and can't stop, because it changes your mental or physical well-being...you're chemically dependent.

You abuse the drug and know you're abusing the drug, but you're unwilling to change...you're crazy.

Which one are you all? Criminal, chemically dependent, or crazy?

I'll let you decide...

As for the underlined and bolded statement...you embody that quite well.

As for this:
"Docj077 your are naive and clueless (and some others out there)...I'm embarrassed for you if you actually have a PHD."

I seem to have forgotten. Where did you do your medical training? What is your Ph.D. in? How much did your degree cost on Ebay? Because, there are a lot of people on the "internets" that might want to know that kind of information.

Yawn...the truth hurts!! :hairy:

You can never oppose real world results...it is what it is.

Watch the video...so....where are the bodies????

 

[docj077]

gotcha.

Doctor, totally off topic,

but since this thread sucks anyway,

what do you think of ADHD and docs prescribing medications for it? Do you think it's overdiagnosed in the US?

There are some children that definitely have ADHD. However, I do really think that it's overdiagnosed. As a child, I had all the signs and symptoms of ADHD. I was reading my old grade school report cards the other day and my teachers mentioned that I didn't pay attention, did not stay in my seat, talked out of turn, failed to get my work done, and did not play well with others. How many teachers and physicians would have put me on ADHD medication if they had the opportunity? Probably, a good number of them.

However, my parents started a careful and complete program that taught discipline and they made sure that I completed my homework.

To be honest, I think that kids that end up on ADHD medication actually end up being psychologically delayed in their development. They never overcome their inattentive nature through learning and mental development. They're missing a developmental milestone. I've seen way too many adults in the clinic I'm currently at that are coming in with anxiety, poor attention span, and the like and it's like they never made it out of childhood (they took ADHD meds as kids). I don't know if the ADHD medication did that or not, but I'm certainly curious about it. Plus, a lot of adults end up asking for their medication again as adults, because they can't control their attention deficits or hyperactivity on their own.

 

[docj077]

Re: Funny thread!!!

Yawn...the truth hurts!! :hairy:

You can never oppose real world results...it is what it is.

Watch the video...so....where are the bodies????

Tell me, where are the bodies for marijuana abusers?

Do you know where they are? They are right next to the people that die from lung cancer due to tobacco smoking. Smoking causes the cancer and marijuana modulates the immune system to allow its metastasis and spread. Steroids are merely the icing on the physiological cake when it comes to cumulative damage due to drug use and abuse.

Again, steroid abusers suffer from body dysmorphic disorder. They don't need more steroids. They need a good psychotherapist.

You should stop defending these practices and if you're apart of it, then I honestly have nothing more to say to you. It's impossible to defend the use of steroids by the numbers. Why? Because, the numbers exist at all.

I really do hope that you understand the majority of side effects and poor outcomes that associated with steroid use are never reported or never diagnosed.

 

[Johnny24601]

re:

No matter what your frequency of use, steroids are terrible for you. Again, it is my opinion that the mental toll concerning steroid use is far worse then physical issues. Just because there are other things out there that are harmful yet accepted by society, does not diminish the fact that steroids are bad for the mind and body.
If you have a thin body structure, even though you work out and are in shape, then why is it some how acceptable to use steroids in order to build mass in an attempt to meet some sort of social "image" of what is sexy? Why is it that one cannot just accept their body as is and be proud that they are in shape not to mention the fact that people should be working out strictly to have a healthy mind and body and not working out to promote some image of themselves? I understand that this point of view is somewhat unrealistic if only because of pervasive vanity, but I will continue to fight the good fight.
Does that mean that we should be honest and put steroid use in their proper category and not lump it in with hard core drug use (i.e. heroin and coke) of course. People should know what they are using as all too often ignorance is bliss.
Attacking Doctor's PhD because of his stance on steroid use is so over the top. Seriously you don't even know this man so back off because regardless of his point of view on a particular issue, this man has earned the title of MD through endless nights of study and sacrifice and we should be proud of him. One has every right to confront his opinion but he earned a degree that 99% of society is incapable of reaching, it is a huge accomplishment.
Plastic surgery is a tough discussion because it is often times very hard to draw the line between what is done for medical reasons and what is done strictly for image (which I believe is unhealthy). For example, someone who has gastric bypass surgery because they are in serious risk of long term health damage (i.e. diabetes and heart problems) then I support the surgery and comparing this to steroid use is outrageous because the patient is dealing with a health issue and is not using gastric bypass for image only. Often times the surgery is done despite the fact that the patient has made little to no effort to change his or her diet and lifestyle, in this case I do not support the surgery. But how do we draw a line, how does one conclude whether the patient has made a concerted effort to lose weight via diet and exercise?. I believe that doctors, health representatives, family, friends and mental health experts should all play an active role in this decision.
Again, if one wants to use steroids then I hope they spend a lot of time researching not only what they are doing to their body but also what they are doing to their soul. If one wants to risk their health for an improved image then they can easily seek out advice on the web, however, it is irresponsible for an MD to be condoning the activity in anyway by providing safety advice on a public forum in regards to drug abuse of any kind. Private consultations with MDs are a different story IMO, but it is clear to me that MDs providing public safety advice on drug abuse leaves room for the ignorant reader to conclude that there are safe ways to abuse drugs and in the end the MD will create an atmosphere that will encourage more drug abusers as compared to the amount of current abusers that the MD protects.
Diagnosis and subsequent treatment via prescription medication for both ADHD, depression and anxiety is a HUGE HUGE problem in America. It is very sad.

 

[trapsource]

Accept your body for what it is and not be vain? Do you know what sight youre on? All these guys complaining about hair loss, coming up with drugs to fix the problem and cutting there scalps open to get a little more hair on top. And drug abusers have the problem? Do you think a guys soul is in tact when the hair transplant surgery he gets is not even guaranteed to look good, might cause irreversable scaring, and cobblestoneing? But he'll keep slicing his head open? Thats not vain? Hair loss has absolutely nothing to do with health and its 100% vanity. But that is totally cool, but would you consider that a problem with the soul?
Like I said before, Ive seen steroid guys and think they are major abusers. Total idiots who think mass and cuts are everthing. But everyone who tries to look better is not abusing their soul. Thats the dumbest thing ive ever heard. Everyone of us does something to look good everyday, male or female.
Docs stance I see his point of not advocating them. but dont sit there and portray all of them to be junkies, criminals, and abusers. I dont care if you are a doctor or the president of the usa , thats a irresponsible state ment. AGain, who the hell cares? If you guys are so concerend about it, especially the Doctor, why arent you doing seminars and going to schools to educate people on the dangers? Why dont you try to help these people instead of insuilting them from your computer?
And ill bet anything if steroids GREW hair, or a drug came out that was harmful long term but grew hair, EVERYONE on this site would be standing in line. And then you would find someway to advocate their use. Legal or not.

 

[FabioM]

Accept your body for what it is and not be vain? Do you know what sight youre on? All these guys complaining about hair loss, coming up with drugs to fix the problem and cutting there scalps open to get a little more hair on top. And drug abusers have the problem? Do you think a guys soul is in tact when the hair transplant surgery he gets is not even guaranteed to look good, might cause irreversable scaring, and cobblestoneing? But he'll keep slicing his head open? Thats not vain? Hair loss has absolutely nothing to do with health and its 100% vanity. But that is totally cool, but would you consider that a problem with the soul?
Like I said before, Ive seen steroid guys and think they are major abusers. Total idiots who think mass and cuts are everthing. But everyone who tries to look better is not abusing their soul. Thats the dumbest thing ive ever heard. Everyone of us does something to look good everyday, male or female.
Docs stance I see his point of not advocating them. but dont sit there and portray all of them to be junkies, criminals, and abusers. I dont care if you are a doctor or the president of the usa , thats a irresponsible state ment. AGain, who the hell cares? If you guys are so concerend about it, especially the Doctor, why arent you doing seminars and going to schools to educate people on the dangers? Why dont you try to help these people instead of insuilting them from your computer?
And ill bet anything if steroids GREW hair, or a drug came out that was harmful long term but grew hair, EVERYONE on this site would be standing in line. And then you would find someway to advocate their use. Legal or not.

You tooks the words off my mouth.

 

[Johnny24601]

re:

The fact that I cannot accept my balding head at a young age is something I am not proud of as I consider taking finasteride for hairloss a weakness and if I suffered sides then I would stop, I made that clear long ago. However, from a cost benefit point I see far less risk in hair transplant and finasteride use as opposed to steroids. I for one would never get a transplant, but I do not put men who have a hair transplant in anywhere near the same category as steroid users. You seem to consistently bring up analogies that are senseless.
Tell me all you want about how steroids can be used with care but I don't buy it as I played a sport at a very high level and saw what steroids do to men. This is my major basis when I say steroids destroy "you" and not just your body. So many of these men tried to rationalize that they used steroids for job performance (which is a seperate issue) and inevitably I saw so many spiral out of control as they became obsessed with their body and how they looked and most continued to use juice after their playing days were done. It was a transformation of sorts and I attributed the start of that transformation to the beginning of their steroid use. When one sacrifices his or her own personnel health for something so insignificant as "appearing" sexy, thay are devaluing themselves and this unconsciously effects other decisions. Everyday that you stick that needle in your arm or pop that pill you are telling yourself that your outward appearance is worth more then you mind and body. Many people will not accept this idea because it is too existential. However, devaluing a human being is all too common and drug abuse is one of the leading ways in which humans take away their self worth. Steroid users begin to take more risks in other aspects of their life because they have already has established the fact that instant gratification is more important then health. I will also add the fact that most of the women that were attracted to these men were um questionable in character to say the least. To me, this made sense as many of these women were smokin hot on the outside and altogether useless otherwise. They were perfect for each other. I also will add that socially many of these men became intolerable because of anger and vanity. In fact, we had a running joke in which no steroid users were allowed to play cards with us because every time they did the game would end with the table flipped over.
Look I am not saying this is the case for every steroid user and I never said they were junkies. I pity anyone who abuses drugs for any reason because I wish everyone could be happy in their own skin (including me and my hairloss).

 

[FabioM]

And what the hell that thing called body dismorphic disorder? :?

1st of all let´s put steroids off this.

Some years ago before i started working out i had alot of complex with my body, i was very skinny and had this skeleton like walk because i had narrow shoulders and skinny legs always rejected by girls...they wouldn´t even give me one second of their time, i couldn´t really get respect and being listen...i started to be a shy teenager and today i´m just a shadow of the kid i was, happy and funny. I had alot of friends and alot of femlae friends until puberty...it really sucked.

I then said to myself i would join a gym (i was 17 years old) and improve till the point i will be happy with me...i still haven´t gotten there but i feel better with me, girls speak with me more and i had a couple of girlfriends, beatifull ones that i somehow didn´t believe i was with them.

I now have goals in my life and i can´t remember the last time i was stressed...and i´m losing hair

What the hell are you up with that sh*t Body Dismorphic Disorder?

Isn´t it better to a person to look like they want? Don´t you want hair too?

For shure i will look like those guys in the trailer i posted above with steroids or without them...i prefer natural because i can´t be bothered with steroids.

And people who judge a bodybuilder just because i had loads of muscle is an idiot.

Incredible how hard work is put down on a low level.

I´ve meet lots of people who bodybuild and they aren´t like alot of people think they are.

Feck the BDD,don´t be fat and lazy, build a greek god body and enjoy walking around.

docj077 you are right in being against steroids because there are dangers to it but that steryotype you and society puts on muscular men is stupid.

 

[Johnny24601]

re:

BTW, perhaps you should consider whether your point of view is (to some varying degree) an attempt to rationalize your own life decisions.

 

[FabioM]

Re: re:

BTW, perhaps you should consider whether your point of view is (to some varying degree) an attempt to rationalize your own life decisions.

Maybe...but don´t we all do that?

 

[trapsource]

Building a great body is the greatest thing, but also a solid mind and soul can go along with it. People will always find fault with how you look if you look good. I get the riod comment from some people , even when ive never done them. I find that to be a huge compliment.
If you look handsome, your a f**. Dress nice; your a f**. Long hair; freak and a f**; muscular; f** and roid head. People will always try to drag you down because they are insecure with themselves. Or jealous, or whatever. Dont you guys wish you have a bod like Bradd Pitt in troy? You think thats not drug aided? The point is a phenomuinal body along with intelligence, integrety and a great heart will separate you from everyone else. Then you can choose you want to date, marry, whatever and be happy. Whats wrong with that?
If youve never had these options, you dont know what I mean, but some do. You know when your happy when you can live and let live. Not drag someone down because of their looks.

 

[docj077]

docj077 you are right in being against steroids because there are dangers to it but that steryotype you and society puts on muscular men is stupid.

I'm not attempting to stereotype people here and if I've come across in such a way, then I must apologize.

I do believe that many people that use steroids have gone through the same situation as you. I'm 5"1"" and 150 lbs. I have basically no fat on my body, because I eat a semi-vegetarian diet. I'm skinny, yet healthy with a blood pressure of 106/65, a pulse of 70, and a lipid profile that would make any adult crap their pants with jealousy. I did all that by simply eating well. The only exercise I do is playing golf and I can walk 36 holes in a day carrying my golf bag and never grow tired. I swing harder and hit the ball farther than any person that I've ever known that has been in the gym. I've maintained by flexibility by staying thin and toned and I have no health problems.

If you go back at look at my posting history, I pretty much post to give people new information or to help others. The majoritiy of people on this site seem to suffer from body dysmorphic disorder, anxiety, depression, or some sort of manic/depressive type of disorder. It's sort of scary to see this many people so concerned with something as simple as hair gather in one place, because they are basically unable to control their ability to completely lose it when it comes to this problem.

I've found that steroid users are the same way. Many of them grow up skinny and ostracized. They one day think that packing on muscle will someone help them establish their identity and give them a place in society. In reality, it confuses the problem for them and merely makes them the butt of jokes. From there, those people continue to aggrevate already underlying psychological issues like body dysmorphic disorder, anxiety, depression, and anger problems until they grow so uncomfortable in their skin that they simply can't stand looking at themselves any longer.

I've seen this happen too many times and the worst part is the people that do it think it's okay to put their bodies through all the strain when they will eventually either die an early death or end up basically crippled from all the wear and tear on their joints and muscles. I've seen that a lot, as well. In fact, I once dissected the cadaver of a man that had done the same thing to himself. He died a muscular man, but he also died with a crappy lipid profile, cardiomegaly, congestive heart failure, and severe arthritis.

If you care so much about how you look, then you should be willing to care just as much about everyone else. Whether they've hurt you or not.

 

[FabioM]

I care about me...i eat alot to grow muscle since it´s my objective, but my diet is pretty clean. I eat lots of vegetables,fruits, pasta,rice white meat and i feel great. Not only with my body but because i feel healthy and in shape.

I did blood work last month and they came great.


My main focus in this thread was to take away the stereotype many muscular men suffer,i see that from alot of people.
Your main focus was on steroids and you are right...there are some people out there that are doing alot of harm to themselves abusing steroids.

But one thing is for shure...from my experience it´s better to be a bodybuilder, natural and leave a healthy and active lifestyle.

I've found that steroid users are the same way. Many of them grow up skinny and ostracized. They one day think that packing on muscle will someone help them establish their identity and give them a place in society.

You are right,muscle is not a miracle to reach that but i believe if you have goals in life, live an active lifestyle and compliment it with a phenomenal body is the way to go.

 

[docj077]

I care about me...i eat alot to grow muscle since it´s my objective, but my diet is pretty clean. I eat lots of vegetables,fruits, pasta,rice white meat and i feel great. Not only with my body but because i feel healthy and in shape.

I did blood work last month and they came great.


My main focus in this thread was to take away the stereotype many muscular men suffer,i see that from alot of people.
Your main focus was on steroids and you are right...there are some people out there that are doing alot of harm to themselves abusing steroids.

But one thing is for shure...from my experience it´s better to be a bodybuilder, natural and leave a healthy and active lifestyle.

I've found that steroid users are the same way. Many of them grow up skinny and ostracized. They one day think that packing on muscle will someone help them establish their identity and give them a place in society.

You are right,muscle is not a miracle to reach that but i believe if you have goals in life, live an active lifestyle and compliment it with a phenomenal body is the way to go.

You seem to have the right attitude, so I'm not quite as worried when it comes to your ability to control what you do to your body.

To be honest, it would seem to me that if you wanted to have the body of your dreams, then you'd want to do it by eating healthy, working out constantly, and never poisoning yourself with supplements and steroids. To me, the above attitude would demonstrate discipline, a desire for self-actualization, and the need to be truly great.

 

[odin2007]

Building a great body is the greatest thing, but also a solid mind and soul can go along with it. People will always find fault with how you look if you look good. I get the riod comment from some people , even when ive never done them. I find that to be a huge compliment.
If you look handsome, your a ****. Dress nice; your a ****. Long hair; freak and a ****; muscular; **** and roid head. People will always try to drag you down because they are insecure with themselves. Or jealous, or whatever. Dont you guys wish you have a bod like Bradd Pitt in troy? You think thats not drug aided? The point is a phenomuinal body along with intelligence, integrety and a great heart will separate you from everyone else. Then you can choose you want to date, marry, whatever and be happy. Whats wrong with that?
If youve never had these options, you dont know what I mean, but some do. You know when your happy when you can live and let live. Not drag someone down because of their looks.

Well put...it all comes down to jealousy!!!

 

[s.a.f]

But then again jealousy is an entirely natural human emotion although not a commendable one.

 

[Johnny24601]

re:

It's tough to decipher people's point of view without actually having a real conversation with them, but I hope no one is confusing the argument hear by correlating people who use steroids to people who just work out and naturally attain a muscular look. These are two separate issues.
I just think steroids are bad news and I have seen that a huge majority of steroid users change for the worse. Perhaps my experience was not indicative of the general steroid user.
Though I will point out that there are some people (certainly not most) who work out religiously and "appear" healthy, but in reality they are just a bulky slow mess. Many of these men spend no time on cardio and flexibility and in my opinion they could be doing more harm then good because they are forcing their heart to support all this extra mass without the necessary cardio work. IMO any quality work out regimen includes weight training, cardio and flexibility work. I work out every other day and I do lots of aerobic and flexibility exercises and my weight training is strictly low weight high reps, but my body type is naturally athletic and bulky so this approach may not be desirable to people with differing body types. I play alot of sports and if go heavy, my muscles tighten up and I get injured easily. Now I have friends who are gym rats but are useless on the athletic field because there muscles are tight and they work out strictly to look good. Some of these guys used to be great athletes but their bulk has stripped them of their athletisism. I find that sort of pathetic.
The mental and physical benefits of working out cannot be disputed, but one has to be careful not to define themselves by the look of their body. I work out to keep my mind and body healthy, the added benefit of "looking" good is just a bonus.
If anyone is implying that any of my comments on steroid abuse is about jealousy then I have a big time problem with that point of view. It is flat out wrong.