T and not just DHT causing male pattern baldness

[mattam]

Hi,

Is it possible that Testosterone (or its other derivatives) causes male pattern baldness, instead of just the DHT (and genetic) that is commonly believed?

Would be good if anyone has seen scientific study backing this up?

Below are my observations/hypotheses:

1) If DHT and genetic alone causes male pattern baldness, then Dutasteride should completely (of say 99%) stop male pattern baldness in its track. From scanning various forums, I have come across a number or people not getting any benefits from being on dutasteride for 1+ year

2) However, we know castrated men or transgendered people have completely stopped hairloss (though not necessary regrowth). In their cases, both DHT, Testosterone, and other derivatives are completely eliminated.

3) Taking 1) and 2) together, it points to the fact that total elimination or close to it a la dutasteride cannot stop male pattern baldness. Only when Testosterone itself is also eliminated that male pattern baldness can be stop.

4) If this hypothesis holds true, it would explains a couple of other things:

4.1 Explains why hairline and temple hairloss is not halted by finasteride/dutasteride. It just means that follicles in those areas shrank as a result of T instead of DHT.

4.2 Explains why certain men don't respond to finasteride -- in some men, they are genetically predisposed lose hair because of T rather than DHT

4.3 Explains why some men report shedding when they initially start finasteride/dutasteride -- this is b/c when T jumped up avg. of some 20% when u start the treatment and it gradually decreases

4.4 It may even explains why finasteride gradually loses it effectiveness after years of use. Essentially receptors on follicles start binding to T causing hairloss despite the fact that DHT is continually suppressed....

Any thoughts....??

If this is true...it's quite a dooms-day scenario...as the only way to stop your hairloss (for some men) is to cut-off the balls!!!!

...not good for me since finasteride stopped working for me and no results whatsoever being dutasteride for 1 month...

 

[scottie311]

I suggest ending this madness by cutting your balls off.

 

[hairschmair]

Don't quote me on this, but I think I read somewhere that people who have had a natural DHT deffiency (or the enzyme that creates DHT) from birth do not go bald.

 

[Mingebreth]

You have some very valid points there my man :cry: Those ballbags seem to have alot to answer for! I reckon it can't be DHT alone that causes the loss cause as you say finasteride and dutasteride are ok but they aint exactly world beating treatments....Its got to be in the genetics. Its the temples that im worried about and I dont reckon there is a f*** you can do about it, even if you took all the dutasteride in the world.

 

[chewbaca]

Don't quote me on this, but I think I read somewhere that people who have had a natural DHT deffiency (or the enzyme that creates DHT) from birth do not go bald.

So they do not go bald, but why didnt thet go bald due to testesterone?.....so this thread is invalid.....its indeed DHT which cause hair loss and T

 

[mattam]

Don't quote me on this, but I think I read somewhere that people who have had a natural DHT deffiency (or the enzyme that creates DHT) from birth do not go bald.

So they do not go bald, but why didnt thet go bald due to testesterone?.....so this thread is invalid.....its indeed DHT which cause hair loss and T

READ -- My hypothesis is that in SOME men, male pattern baldness is caused by T or other derivatives of T, IN ADDITION to DHT. Hence, complete elimination of DHT cannot garantee stopping of male pattern baldness.

In those with 5AR deficiency, it maybe that genetically, their male pattern baldness would have been affected only by DHT and not T.

Essentially, my hypothesis is that in SOME men or in CERTAIN AREA of the head in certain men, the hair follicles can bind to DHT, T, or other deriverative of T, causing male pattern baldness.

And I suspect that men starting male pattern baldness ealier (late teens early 20's) are genetically of this type...

 

[Red Rose]

Hi,

Is it possible that Testosterone (or its other derivatives) causes male pattern baldness, instead of just the DHT (and genetic) that is commonly believed?

Would be good if anyone has seen scientific study backing this up?

http://endo.endojournals.org/cgi/content/full/138/1/356

"This in vitro study also reconfirms that the frontal hair follicle of stumptailed macaques is an androgen-dependent organ, showing direct effects of testosterone on epithelial cells cocultured with bald frontal dermal papilla cells. Other androgen-regulated factors may be isolated in further studies. To the best of our knowledge, this is the first paper demonstrating the inhibitory effect of testosterone on the proliferation of outer root sheath cells cocultured with dermal papilla cells derived from the bald frontal scalp."

By inhibiting the growth of the outer root sheath and dermal papilla cells, this paper shows in stumptailed macques that testosterone has the same effect as DHT and therefore lends support to your theory.

 

[GeminiX]

This is an interesting subject; the combination of medication that I take more or less blocks the testosterone in my body, and I've noticed a significant amount of regrowth, including my "male" hairline.

I wonder if the idea of a topical anti andreogen has legs?

 

[chewbaca]

This is an interesting subject; the combination of medication that I take more or less blocks the testosterone in my body, and I've noticed a significant amount of regrowth, including my "male" hairline.

I wonder if the idea of a topical anti andreogen has legs?

what r the the combination of medication u are curently taking?

 

[GeminiX]

Aside from the finasteride, the Ovysmen is a female hormone and the Androcur is a strong anti-androgen (T blocker).

D

 

[chewbaca]

Aside from the finasteride, the Ovysmen is a female hormone and the Androcur is a strong anti-androgen (T blocker).

D

where do u buy these and what are the costs?

i suspect i may be expereincing T- related male pattern baldness

cause look at this


http://www.gourmetstylewellness.com/discussions ... hair transplant=zealand

As testosterone (but not DHT) is responsible for sexual function after puberty, administration of PROPECIA is not theoretically expected to induce sexual dysfunction.

 

[stax]

Could this be the reason that dutasteride may increase frontal loss in some people? Does testosterone really cause hairloss? Is Vitro studies in the human body or Vivo because if it wasn't studied in the human body can we really take this seriously?

 

[Fallout Boy]

there is nothign to topically inhibit Test. and DHT in the scalp?? i would think by now they would have figured something out .. damn Scientists!!

 

[GeminiX]

I would not recommend this particular regimen, unless you are transsexual (I am, apologies if you weren't aware). They will have some dramatic effects on your body, probably more than you bargained for

It is interesting that I seem to have had better than average results to Finasteride though; I would love to know if it is a direct result of the anti androgens.

D

 

[stax]

Actually spironolactone and Fluridil is supposed to deactivate the effects of testosterone on the scalp.

 

[GeminiX]

I've been considering switching the Androcur to spironolactone myself. Is spironolactone as effective as Androcur in getting rid of body hair too?

D

 

[TourdeForce24]

Don't quote me on this, but I think I read somewhere that people who have had a natural DHT deffiency (or the enzyme that creates DHT) from birth do not go bald.

So they do not go bald, but why didnt thet go bald due to testesterone?.....so this thread is invalid.....its indeed DHT which cause hair loss and T

If they have a natural DHT deficiency this means that they have a small pecker too. DHT controls the forming of sexual organs!

 

[chewbaca]

This study is comparable with the earlier study indicating that castration before or after puberty prevents the induction or further development of baldness in the absence of exogenous testosterone and suggesting that continued exposure to androgens may be required in hair follicles to cause an alteration in gene expression (10).

anyone noticed this?..this means that someone needs to reverse engineer the same gene to cure baldness

 

[mattam]

By inhibiting the growth of the outer root sheath and dermal papilla cells, this paper shows in stumptailed macques that testosterone has the same effect as DHT and therefore lends support to your theory.

Thanks Red Rose,

Shouldn't this have been more widely published, or was I the first to have come acrossed this hypothesis (Nobel prize for me!).

This should have been studied and dicovered by scientist and/or big pharma long time ago as they know that inhibition of DHT does not stop frontal hairloss and the fact that some men don't respond to finasteride.

Because in this case, in their marketing material which says "DHT causes male pattern baldness..." is not a complete truth. And this has significant implication. It may read...."Taking finasteride or dutasteride may help stop hairloss on the crown but increase hairline/temple recession" or that "for certain men, taking finasteride may further increased hairloss"

Anyway..I am quite pissed (at my situation and the fact they this has not been more widely publicized)...But not thing I can do....urgghh..

 

[chewbaca]

I think inhibiting testes and DHT at the same time is the way to go....MErc should add a testes inhibiting fucntion to propecia.....