The destruction of Armando's sebum-back-up theory w/pictures

[michael barry]

I thought I'd just start a thread anew since Armando seems to have given up on the old one. I like dispensing with incorrect baldness theories so newbies are not distracted, and his is the silliest Ive run across....

.

Here is the growth chart over five years with finasteride, which has no effect on sebum whatsoever, but regrows hair, http://www.propecia.com/finasteride/pro ... /index.jsp


All one has to do is to click PLAY and see that finasteride grows hair, and men still have a 277 hair count increase per square inch over placebo at YEAR FIVE. No sebum affected at all.


Here is yet another hair transplant repair photo of a man whose plugs grow just fine, but the hair behind them falling out. All hair is kept short, sebum drainiage should be the same, why?
http://www.forhair.com/hairtransplant/topic1023.html


Here is a great picture that utterly disproves Armando's zany theory, http://www.forhair.com/hairtransplant/topic1106.html
The man in the picture has old hair plug transplants. He has elected to have them completely surgically removed. The kept growing even after he went completely bald behind them.



Here is another pic of a guy who elected to do the same thing,'
http://www.forhair.com/hairtransplant/topic972.html

Hair around the plugs kept falling out, but plugs kept on growing. Sebum sure wasn't effecting them was it?

 

[Armando Jose]

Dear Michael Barry;

You said about my theory words as zany, silliest, ridiculous, nosense, etc.
Please stop your flatterings comments and join to Bryan's club where sebum and sebaceous gland have no role in hair loss. Then your point of view about common baldness will be narrowing, despite the innumerable coments of afected persons.

Armando

 

[powersam]

michael barry - i have no time for armandos theory whatsoever but i do have one query.

sebum is androgen regulated yes? so if finasteride affects androgens how can it not affect sebum?

 

[Armando Jose]

Powersam;

the problem can be the type of isoenzime 1 or 2 present in pilosebaceous unit.

Armando

 

[michael barry]

Powersam,

The type 2 alpha five reductase enzyme is located in the innermost portion of the outer root sheath of hair and beard follicles. This is what finasteride inhibits.

The type 1 enzyme is located in sebaceous glands and sebocytes (as well as the chest and back skin and some of the deeper tissues in the body and in your brain to a small extent).


Finas has been found to have no effect on sebum


MK386, a type ONE inhibitor of alpha five reductase made by Merk, was tested and had a depressive effect on sebum. It lowered sebum secretion a good bit, but had a very minimal effect on hair at all, nothing like finasterides. According to Armando's theory, sebum -back up is the real reason we lose hair, and hair "can deal with androgens". IF this is so, MK386 ought to lessen sebum and be much better for hairloss.

 

[powersam]

thankye kindly sir.

 

[Armando Jose]

Good explanation with isoenzymes Michael but you say, not me:
" According to Armando's theory, sebum -back up is the real reason we lose hair, and hair "can deal with androgens"

My theory talks about hormones but not only them. The main problem appears when the sebum traveling down to the dermal papilla is hardened (problems with natural sebum flow) and interfere with the renovation of stem cells. They have to travel the same "road" from bulge area to dermal papilla. Hormones, bacterias, oxidants, fibrosis, etc. are agravating factors.

Please, Michael don't put words in my mouth. It is sufficient for me dealing with english language.

Armando

 

[michael barry]

yet transplanted hair mystically has no such problems with sebum getting hard and blocking stem cell flow as those three pictures of bad hair plugs clearly attest.

Big plugs just growing as large as they ever were decades after the surgery, while the hair around and behind them falls out, why?

 

[hair today gone tomorrow]

does anyone on this forum actually agree with what ARMANDO is saying?

 

[Armando Jose]

I am trying to say that sebum have a role in common baldness.

Anyone agree with this statement?

Armando

 

[Bryan]

I am trying to say that sebum have a role in common baldness.

Anyone agree with this statement?

**the sounds of crickets chirping**

 

[Armando Jose]

Steroids in scalp hairs before puberty?

This is a e-mail regarding the possiblity to determinate testosterone, dihydrotestosterone and epitestosterone in the roots of scalp anagen hairs. For example, 15 plucked hairs from occipital and vertex area from boys and girls before puberty (maximum five or six years old).

Dear Dr. Bong Chul Chung;

I have read your paper “Measurement of testosterone and pregnolone in nails using gas chromatography-mass spectrometryâ€￾. It is very interesting and a very well done work, but what could be the result if the samples were collected from boys and girls before puberty?. Do you know any study done with this premise?

On the other hand, in your work “GC-MS determination of steroids related to androgen biosynthesis in human hair with pentafluorophenyldimethylsilyl-trimethylsilyl derivasitationâ€￾ you used hair collected during haircutting. The hair have not the root of the hair, you used only hair shaft but, it is possible a similar determination using only extracted hair with the hair root and eliminating the hair shaft?. And the same question with dehydroepiandrosterone (DHEA) as the mandatory precursor of human androgen synthesis?.

My investigations are concerning about hair biology, where I developed a very simple theory of common baldness, and it carried me to a conundrum: the vital existence of androgen metabolism in the vicinity of scalp hair follicles. The reason is that a healthy hair needs a functional sebaceous gland, and this is totally androgen dependent. Normally, healthy childrens have a luxuriant scalp hair and then, have you any proof of the existence or non-existence of androgens in scalp hairs years before puberty? It is possible carry out such experiment?


Can you help me in this issue?

Yours sincerely

Armando J. Yáñez Soler
e-mail: [email protected]


Here is the reply:

Dear Armando;

At the moment, we analyzed the hair samples obtained from boys who were before puberty, and some androgens could be quantitatively measured from even boys before puberty. But, we didn’t analyze nails from the before-puberty and dit might be detectable based on our previous hair studies.
In some studies we have done, levels of androgens including DHEA are slightly increased if the samples containing hair root against hair shaft only.

Approaching prepubertal samples in baldness study is a great strategy I think !!
Altough I don’t have a good knowledge in hair science, it’s totally make a lot of sense.

We would be happy if we have a chance to collaborate with you to establish your aspect.

Cho Man-Ho
Senior Research Scientist,
Life Sciences Division,
Korea Institute of Science and Technology
39-1 Hawolkok-dong, Seongbuk-ku
Seoul 136-791, Korea

 

[Bryan]

So there you have it, Armando: levels of androgens in the hair roots of pre-pubertal boys are "slightly increased". Doesn't sound very impressive, does it? So how are you going to explain how sebaceous glands in the scalps of young boys (not to mention the ones in young girls) could be stimulated by androgens to a FAR greater extent than the sebaceous glands in their foreheads? :wink:

 

[Armando Jose]

Bryan;

I understand that the levels of androgens are slightly increased when the samples are taken near of the scalp. But androgens exists (quantitatively measured) even in hair fibre of prepubertals. But the question remain, what happen in the root hair?

Armando

 

[Bryan]

Please answer my question, Armando.

 

[Armando Jose]

Dear kind Bryan:

You say: So there you have it, Armando: levels of androgens in the hair roots of pre-pubertal boys are "slightly increased". Doesn't sound very impressive, does it?


Dr. Choi in his work: “ Biochemical Roles of Testosterone and Epitestosterone to 5a-Reductase as Indicators of Male-Pattern Baldness†didn’t use hair roots, human scalp hair was collected by haircutting. In material and methods: Human hair samples were obtained simply by cutting the tip portions of each subject's scalp hair.
By the way, in the same study they compared steroids levels of father and sons, and they don’t be very different. I recommend its lecture.



I don’t understand very well your question: “So how are you going to explain how sebaceous glands in the scalps of young boys (not to mention the ones in young girls) could be stimulated by androgens to a FAR greater extent than the sebaceous glands in their foreheads?â€

I have the impression that the action of androgens is confined very near where they are produced. You say a lot of times the importance of androgens generated inside follicular unit, more than androgens circulating with blood flow, regarding hair biology.
Before puberty steroids are present only inside the pilosebaceous unit, and its effects don’t reach even the neighbouring hair. I guess is necessary with asynchronous scalp hair system in humans. So, hormones created before puberty has not the possibility to travel another zones as forehead for example.



By the way, don’t you like my work trying to prove androgens in prebubertal hairs?

Armando

 

[Bryan]

Dear kind Bryan:

You say: So there you have it, Armando: levels of androgens in the hair roots of pre-pubertal boys are "slightly increased". Doesn't sound very impressive, does it?

Dr. Choi in his work: “ Biochemical Roles of Testosterone and Epitestosterone to 5a-Reductase as Indicators of Male-Pattern Baldnessâ€￾ didn’t use hair roots, human scalp hair was collected by haircutting. In material and methods: Human hair samples were obtained simply by cutting the tip portions of each subject's scalp hair.

Yes, but you are forgetting the other thing that Dr. Choi said, which is the following: "In some studies we have done, levels of androgens including DHEA are slightly increased [in] the samples containing hair root against hair shaft only." So he DID do some testing using hair roots, and found that androgen levels are only slightly increased.

I don’t understand very well your question: “So how are you going to explain how sebaceous glands in the scalps of young boys (not to mention the ones in young girls) could be stimulated by androgens to a FAR greater extent than the sebaceous glands in their foreheads?â€￾

I will try to explain my question a little better and in more detail for you:

We all know that young children produce very low (almost undetectable) levels of sebum in their foreheads. When I have asked you to explain how they can also have thick, luxuriant scalp hair in the virtual absence of sebum, you have tried to claim that pilosebaceous units in the scalp are DIFFERENT in the scalp in that they supposedly produce their own high levels of androgens, which would presumably also cause much more sebum production in the nearby sebaceous glands in the scalp, which would explain (according to your theory) why they have such thick scalp hair growth.

But Dr. Choi just CONTRADICTED your theory by saying that he found only a LITTLE MORE androgen in the hair roots of young boys. That wouldn't be a level of androgen high enough to cause the nearby sebaceous glands to produce the large amount of sebum that your theory requires to explain such good scalp hair growth.

So how do you explain all that luxuriant scalp hair growth in little girls and little boys, when they have no measurable sebum in their foreheads, and not enough androgens in their scalp pilosebaceous units to produce enough sebum at that location, either??

I have the impression that the action of androgens is confined very near where they are produced. You say a lot of times the importance of androgens generated inside follicular unit, more than androgens circulating with blood flow, regarding hair biology.

I think that's true for DHT, but not for testosterone, and probably not for the other weaker androgens, either. There is some POWERFUL evidence supporting the idea that circulating testosterone (and other weaker androgens, I suppose) plays an important role in balding, and that's the fact that castration has been shown to halt further balding (see James Hamilton's important early work on that subject). While I do believe the modern research showing that hair follicles themselves have a lot of the metabolic "machinery" needed to produce their own androgens, they evidently don't produce enough of them to override the powerful effect of castration.

Before puberty steroids are present only inside the pilosebaceous unit, and its effects don’t reach even the neighbouring hair. I guess is necessary with asynchronous scalp hair system in humans. So, hormones created before puberty has not the possibility to travel another zones as forehead for example.

Again, Dr. Choi said that in pre-pubertal hair follicle roots, levels of androgens are only a little higher.

By the way, don’t you like my work trying to prove androgens in prebubertal hairs?

I neither like it nor dislike it, Armando! I really don't see what the point of it is. You still haven't been able to prove that pre-pubertal children have significant levels of sebum production in their scalps, and you haven't even been able to provide a possible theoretical explanation for how such higher levels of scalp sebum could come about in the first place, considering the low levels of androgens in young children (both systemic and follicular).

 

[michael barry]

Finasteride haircount 277 hairs per square inch above placebo at YEAR FIVE.


THere is no way to explain that away, even by bringing children into the argument.


Dutasteride, a stronger inhibitor of type 2 alpha five has higher haircounts.


MK386, a type one DHT inhibitor, has a depressive effect on sebum, but a small effect on hair size.


If sebum back up, and interruption of stem cell flow from the arrector pilli, and oxides in sebum hurting cells and eliciting an immunological event were the case, then finas effect would not still be in force five full years after beginning it.


Its amazing how Armando just brushes the finas and the gazillion transplant repair photos (which are all over the net) breezily away to talk about minimal amounts of androgens in some kids.

All those pictures of women with short hair who keep their hair aside...................................................



And what about the proanthocyandin increase in hair growth. Those dont effect sebum at all.

 

[Armando Jose]

Dear kindy Bryan;

Thank you for your deference with me.

Here is one (*) of the few work regarding sebum in hair scalp in prepubertal persons. They obtained the sebum by pouring with ethanol through the child’s hair. They obtained results not very different from adults.

Please read it and it is possible than you change the opinion that children have no sebum.

Have a nice reading.

Armando

(*) http://www.nature.com/jid/journal/v84/n ... 4599a.html

Proportions of various straight and branched fatty acid chain types in the sebaceous wax esters of young children
Stewart, Downing
J Invest Dermatol, 84:501-503, 1985

 

[Armando Jose]

Dear Michael;

In my opinion sebum is vital for hair growth, but it is important generate sebum and at the same time eliminate it. This is the reason I talk about sebum flow.

Armando