The founding fathers were not penicals of wisdom

CCS

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They had vastly different views, especially about slavery. If you read the constitution, you will see they were very much against people having a say in government, and built a congress that controlled everything. The first draft of the constitution did not even have freedom of speech.

Yes, some of our founding fathers were more libertarian. Others were federalists. Some were libertarian because they wanted to keep slavery. It just depended on each. Fact is, they disagreed on many issues, but had to find a middle ground they could agree on so we could be the United States instead of the Divided States.

Women did not get a right to vote until 1960. Slavery was a heated topic even during the founding. There were federalists vs states rights advocates. Originally, you could not even vote unless you owned a lot of property.
I bet the 2nd amendment was worded so vaguely just so it would pass, and was probably an argued point between the founders. Many of the founders were afraid of "the mob".

So it is no surprise to me that we still live under tyranny. Our current voting system makes it so difficult for people to organize to elect the candidate they really want. And we can't change the election system at the local level. Congress has that power, and won't change it because they like the method that keeps getting them re-elected.

The fact we can even vote for senators, or get presidential electors pledged, is a major accomplishment by the populists. Now that I know the history a bit more, I don't feel like the country is sliding backwards from how the founders wanted it. Rather, I feel that the battle for freedom has never been won.
 

CCS

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I want to pass a law that changes how our senators are elected, so that instead of the candidate with the most votes getting elected, people can rank the candidates, and a simulated head to head run off of all candidates can be done with the rankings. The candidate that wins every head to head runoff should be the winner. If a triangle forms, I have a solution for that too.

Point is, the US constitution, which only congress can propose amendments too, says that only state legislatures may change how senators are elected, unless congress decides to over-ride them. If we can't choose how our representatives are elected, then they are not really our representatives.
 

ClayShaw

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Slavery was a very regrettable compromise that was required to get the southern states into the union.
 

Avery

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They were smart guys, but not prophets. Personally, I'm sick of people using them as their go-to when change is suggested. "But the founding fathers said we need to keep our guns!" So what? They couldn't see the future.

I think it's time to stop deifying these guys.
 

FlashDance

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"Our current voting system makes it so difficult for people to organize to elect the candidate they really want."

Apparently you weren't around for the 2008/2009 Presidential Election...
 

casperz

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Women did not get a right to vote until 1960.

That blows me away every time I think about how recent that really was and
how far women have come. I read recently your more likely to work for a female in a large corporation than a male. Women have invaded middle
management which is not a bad thing for the type of management skills
needed at those levels.

Regarding the original premise, the solution can be much more simple. I
think term limits of all elected officials would go a long way to solving a lot of problems.
 

Bryan

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CCS said:
Women did not get a right to vote until 1960.

SAY......WHAT???? :)
 

ali777

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casperz said:
Women did not get a right to vote until 1960.

That blows me away every time I think about how recent that really was and
how far women have come. I read recently your more likely to work for a female in a large corporation than a male. Women have invaded middle
management which is not a bad thing for the type of management skills
needed at those levels.

Regarding the original premise, the solution can be much more simple. I
think term limits of all elected officials would go a long way to solving a lot of problems.

Yeah it is a shame.... I was reading something about Switzerland yesterday, apparently one of their local governments didn't give the women the right to vote until 1991. Considering the fact that they used to be top of the table in the rich list for a very long time, that's very embarrassing (I think Scandinavians and Luxembourg have higher GDP right now).

I agree that women are very suitable for "middle management", they are just better at organisational skills than us.
 

Old Baldy

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Women got the vote in 1920.

Of course that was as big a mistake as allowing slavery to continue! :mrgreen:
 

cuebald

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Jefferson was a Norwood 1, Franklin was a Norwood 3?
See, they weren't that bad
 

Bryan

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They reached the pinochle of success... :whistle:
 
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