The Inevitable, both for Good and Bad

[pop]

Everyone says 5-10 years for FDA, but I thought Rogaine
only took like 2 years for approval.

As far as spending 36,000, that will go down at some point to closer to 10,000.
And say you spent $100 a month for 30 years on these drugs and other snake oils, that's $39,000 for crappy hair and sides.

 

[BiteMe]

Its still going to be considered surgery, and surgery is always considered last resort, and its going to cost a minimum of $36,000 per procedure.

Why are you certain that the cost will so high?

 

[Lossfer]

Reply

gourmetstylewellness.com--I appreciate what you are saying, but I don't think its entirely illogical to generalize somewhat from my experience. It would seem more illogical to believe my experience is totally unique. Let me state that at this time I am satisfied with my hair. It is thinner than it used to be, and I would like it to be thicker, but if it stayed "as is" indefinatly I could live with it. Unfortunatly, the Big 3 has not stopped cold my hairloss. If the cause of my hairloss is male pattern baldness then I can only assume that the Big 3 has slowed the loss, for which I am greatful. I would now have even less hair than I do now if I had not started the regimen more than a year ago. I say this because, like you, I do believe they have been clinically proven to be effective. I admire your dogged determination to stick to solid science. That's what makes this board and site the best around. We want and need the facts, and just the facts. Therefore, I am not being critical of finasteride, minoxidil and nizoral. To the contrary, for any man who is beginning to experience male pattern baldness I would say get on all three immediatly and I am constantly amused by the fears some have about side effects. They are rare and upon experiencing them you can always stop the treatment. I'm ok on that score, no lasting side effects. My point has been, however, that for some of us I don't think they will be enough, meaning they won't stop or slow the male pattern baldness process long enough for the next and more effective treatment to arrive. But, that treatment is coming, and we should be open to the possibility that we will lose it before we are able to gain it back again. As for Folligen, I am under the impression that it is simply a form of minoxidil, which I use anyway. I am waiting for more feedback on Innovate before possibly adding that, although I am aware of the lack of solid science behind it. Because of that, if and when I do add it, it will not be a replacement for one of the Big 3 but in addition to it.

 

[GourmetStyleWellness]

Be that as it may this guy has a perspective that others, including myself, happen to agree with. So are you saying he, or anyone, can not share the way they see things if they are in the minority?

The minority comment was in reference to the products not working for him. The perspective I have is in regards to hair cloning. The people who share my perspective are the people actually researching hair cloning. Kevin McElwee, Bosley, Christiano, Jahoda. People Ive sat next to in a room and discussed this with. The people you're sharing perspective with are average joes like you or I who know nothing about this stuff. I trust the people Ive listened to over other guys like me. Thats all. I didnt make any claims about whether your opinion was minority or majority. That was in reference to him not responding to Propecia/Rogaine.

Lol, Billions, that's quite an exaggeration there.

Not really, when we're talking "Unlimited" its impossible to exaggerate!

I totally agree that skin can only take so much at one time, but the number it would require to get a full head of hair is below that number. I am sure if you went into the office and got 80,000 new hairs put in at one time there would be some problems coming your way. Even with today's FUE transplants they can get hairs placed very close to what they are naturally, and after that heals if needed they can go back to that same area and add more. You can bet that the closer we get to hair cloning becoming a reality that so will doctor's ability to place hairs even closer together without as much damage to the scalp.

Im just a skeptic on transplants in general I guess. To this day I can pick a hair transplant out of a crowd, and the reason why, every single time, is that the density is not like real hair. I almost wonder if the hair in back is built differently because it looks more "Fuzzy" on top. Its difficult to describe, but it doesnt look like frontal hair to me at all. When Ive spoken to transplant doctors about this they've always told me, they would do more but it would cause too much trauma to the skin up front. So I don't see how having unlimited donor hair is going to fix that. Im honestly not impressed with the density provided by transplants even after multiple sessions. Guys definitely look better, no doubt, but i have yet to see an undetectable hair transplant.

I did read your previous post and you are building up a hair transplant to the equivalent of a "major procedure."

I deliberately left the word major out of my sentence for that reason. I don't consider it a major surgery. I do consider any surgery to be last resort though. Its still going to be considered cosmetic surgery. If a person has the option of losing weight by working out for a year and eating right and taking care of themselves .... or .... getting lipsoction to get the same result, any doctor would probably tell them to go the nonsurgical route first. Its a general rule in medicine that you want to avoid surgery and use alternatives first. I agree with you 100% that if hair cloning is going to be as good as we hope, lots of people will go right for it ... but ...

... take me for example. You see my hair on my story in the Tell your Story section of this forum. What would I do? Ive got major thinning goin on right up front. The first 3 inches of hair. Say hair cloning came out tomorrow, and say I did have $40,000 to blow. Or hell ... even say maybe Bazan offered it to me free of charge because I own this website, and he wanted a good spokesperson. Would I do it? No way. Why? ... its surgery. I would rather try rogaine, revivogen, topical spironolactone ... see if i can continue to maintain what I have. Id rather put a lotion on my skin than go under the knife.

Lots of other guys will definitely go right for the surgery and I think its definitely the hugest step forward. I welcome them to it and I hope that they will be free of their emotional pain ... from hair loss! Im just not sold on the density issue yet. Maybe they'll come up with a better way to make it more dense.

Either way I think you and I agree. I just get this vibe that you're angry at Propecia and Rogaine and I dont get it. They help the vast majority of people. You almost sound happy at their possible demise ... which honestly .. to me is kinda weird. They're not people. Heheh...

gourmetstylewellness.com

 

[Odelay]

The minority comment was in reference to the products not working for him. The perspective I have is in regards to hair cloning. The people who share my perspective are the people actually researching hair cloning. Kevin McElwee, Bosley, Christiano, Jahoda. People Ive sat next to in a room and discussed this with. The people you're sharing perspective with are average joes like you or I who know nothing about this stuff. I trust the people Ive listened to over other guys like me. Thats all. I didnt make any claims about whether your opinion was minority or majority. That was in reference to him not responding to Propecia/Rogaine.

Actually what we were talking about was the fact this guy put a post up, not talking about hair cloning, talking about how people should be open to the fact that they might go bald before a treatment comes out. That is when everyone jumped on his case for being honest, and you defended the people that did so. That is how I came to the conclusion that it must not be allowed to express your opinion if you have any negative comments about any of the proven treatments. I have never said any of the treatments are bogus or don't work, neither did the guy that started this post. We both have just stated that the effects do not work for everyone and eventually they do start to diminish.

Not really, when we're talking "Unlimited" its impossible to exaggerate!

Be that as it may, you were saying even with billions of hairs you could not get the density you had before, that's all.

Im just a skeptic on transplants in general I guess. To this day I can pick a hair transplant out of a crowd, and the reason why, every single time, is that the density is not like real hair. I almost wonder if the hair in back is built differently because it looks more "Fuzzy" on top. Its difficult to describe, but it doesnt look like frontal hair to me at all. When Ive spoken to transplant doctors about this they've always told me, they would do more but it would cause too much trauma to the skin up front. So I don't see how having unlimited donor hair is going to fix that. Im honestly not impressed with the density provided by transplants even after multiple sessions. Guys definitely look better, no doubt, but i have yet to see an undetectable hair transplant..

It is pretty easy to pick out some people who have had transplants, especially if they have had them done from an average doctor. I find that the hair transplant I can really pick out are those that went from a NW7 to a NW2, give or take a Norwood. The only reason I notice them is the fact their hairline is transparent when you get close to them. I feel that if they had more hair to spread around then anyone would be totally oblivious to the fact they had a transplant. I think most bad transplants stim from the fact there is only so much hair to work with, while some doctors can optimize each hair placement and others can not, thus creating a bad transplant. I believe that if more doctors had an unlimited source of hair to use then a lot more of them could recreate natural hairlines.

I deliberately left the word major out of my sentence for that reason. I don't consider it a major surgery.

Well during your first post you called it a "major surgery" so I just figured you would not have changed your view.

I do consider any surgery to be last resort though. Its still going to be considered cosmetic surgery. If a person has the option of losing weight by working out for a year and eating right and taking care of themselves .... or .... getting lipsoction to get the same result, any doctor would probably tell them to go the nonsurgical route first. Its a general rule in medicine that you want to avoid surgery and use alternatives first.

I, like a lot of people wish it was like being overweight, at least with being overweight if you stick to a diet and exercise you are going to lose weight. Unfortunate for us though even if you do stick to the treatments you are still not guarnteed any results, and results might not be what you want them to be. I am proof that even giving it all you have you still might just be out of luck. At least with weight loss you can try harder to lose you weight and you can feel as if you are making progress. I have done all the proven treatments, it's like saying no matter how hard you work out and how much you starve yourself your just sh*t out of luck.

Not "going under the knife" is everyone's individual preference. If I knew that I would have a very good shot of getting my hair back, and would never have to take another pill or apply minoxidil, I think a lot of people would jump at that chance. It's not that I have anything against the proven treatments I just look at things in the odds that they give me to get what I want, in this case a full head of hair. With Propecia you only have a small chance at a lot of regrowth, and the results are not going to last you for as long as you want them too. Minoxidil you have an even smaller chance of a lot of regrowth, and even if you do the results once again will not last you as long as you wanted them too. Even if cloned hair will end up costing me more money in the long run it would be well worth it all. Personally I hate how much losing my hair has bothered me, to never have to worry being reminded of it everyday by taking a pill or applying a liquid where results vary is well worth the cost and having minor surgery.

While I won't be one of the first people to jump on the wagon for cloned hair I will be right behind them. I feel that once people start showing results and are very happy with their the way they look I will be heading to the most respectable offices and jump on the wagon.

It's not that I dispise either of the treatments, even though neither of those bastards worked for me :lol: I have never doubted that either of them work, if that was the case I would of never started either of them. I will just be happy when people have a solutions that gives them as much hair as they want to have and they don't have to worry about not being happy with the results they may or may not receive.

 

[GourmetStyleWellness]

Actually what we were talking about was the fact this guy put a post up, not talking about hair cloning, talking about how people should be open to the fact that they might go bald before a treatment comes out. That is when everyone jumped on his case for being honest, and you defended the people that did so.

What in gods name are you talking about? Please go back and read what was said. Nobody jumped on his case 'for being honest'. They jumped on his ase for making generalizations about products, and saying they don't work. If you're going to debate me, at least use the facts.

That is how I came to the conclusion that it must not be allowed to express your opinion if you have any negative comments about any of the proven treatments.

Again what are you talking about? If someone disagrees with the guys facts, or if the guy gets his facts totally wrong, or if he makes an unfactual generalization that implies something contradictory to the scientifically established statistics on the success percentages of a treatment, that means he's "Not allowed to express his opinion"? Stop trying to paint a picture like people are out to get him and there's some evil conspiracy to squelch anyone who had an unproductive experience with clinically proven treatments. We are here to keep the facts straight. He made unfactual statements, and implied "they dont work". I care about my users education on the facts, and I will continue to correct things.

I have never said any of the treatments are bogus or don't work, neither did the guy that started this post.

Again would you go back and read the original post? I quote: "it is inevitable despite our best efforts... we are going to lose enough ... to be considered bald ... Its going to happen... there is nothing we can do about it ... even with finasteride and minoxidil ... its just not going to be enough to stop the loss" That plainly states that they don't work, and that plainly contradicts the clinically proven facts about the products. That is why I personally took issue with him. I don't speak for the others.

We both have just stated that the effects do not work for everyone and eventually they do start to diminish.

When he said "For Many people", to me that implied majority. I wouldn't consider 17 out of 100 to be "many". If you mix Propecia and minoxidil together, that 17 becomes probably about 7%. The two together enhance the percentages of responders drastically. He implied many, and then stated plainly that the products just dont work.

The second half of your post contained intelligent, constructive comments. Thank you. You sufficiently bugged in the first half though. Stop being so negative. Nobody here is out to get you, and there isnt a "Proven treatment monster" or "proven treatment mafia" that has an underground network of people working on this site to silence any naysayers. Propecia tore the hell out of my body with side effects. I cant even take it anymore. I say that over and over. If you think im paid by Merck or have some sort of bias, you're flat out wrong. Merk would fire me for all the trash talking I've done of Propecia. My goal is to make sure everyone has a "middle of the road" perspective on things. No ridiculous extremes in any direction. Dont say "they dont and wont work and why bother" and expect to *not* be corrected. He will be corrected. Facts are all that matter to me. I readily acknowledge that 17% of people wont have any results on Propecia. There is no conspiracy. Just a conspiracy against misinformation.

gourmetstylewellness.com

 

[Odelay]

What in gods name are you talking about? Please go back and read what was said. Nobody jumped on his case 'for being honest'. They jumped on his ase for making generalizations about products, and saying they don't work. If you're going to debate me, at least use the facts.

If you want to talk about facts then read all of his posts, then you will see that I am stating the facts. Any confusion about his first post was cleared up in his second post, but I though he made himself perfectly clear the first time around. All he has ever said is that these treatments we have today are not going to last people forever, and at sometime in the future some of us should accept the fact that we might be bald. He never said everyone, and he never said Propecia and Minoxidil are worthless, people just assumed that because he was talking about being bald. The point I believe he was trying to make was that the results from these drugs do start to lose their effectiveness after awhile, and some people could be considered bald before a truely effective treatment comes out.

Again what are you talking about? If someone disagrees with the guys facts, or if the guy gets his facts totally wrong, or if he makes an unfactual generalization that implies something contradictory to the scientifically established statistics on the success percentages of a treatment, that means he's "Not allowed to express his opinion"? Stop trying to paint a picture like people are out to get him and there's some evil conspiracy to squelch anyone who had an unproductive experience with clinically proven treatments. We are here to keep the facts straight. He made unfactual statements, and implied "they dont work". I care about my users education on the facts, and I will continue to correct things.

What you are not realizing is that the treatments not working are part of the facts, and that the science behind these drugs openly admit to the fact they are not 100%, nor are they even approaching 100%. I am not painting this imaginary picture you are speaking of, I am simply stating something you should be well aware of, and those are the facts. While it is great to look on the bright side when conserning Propecia and Minoxidil, it in no way should be represented as what will happen for every person. I never doubted that you didn't care for what people read on this site, I just believe people should also be aware that the products might not be everything they are hoping for.

Again would you go back and read the original post? I quote: "it is inevitable despite our best efforts... we are going to lose enough ... to be considered bald ... Its going to happen... there is nothing we can do about it ... even with finasteride and minoxidil ... its just not going to be enough to stop the loss" That plainly states that they don't work, and that plainly contradicts the clinically proven facts about the products. That is why I personally took issue with him. I don't speak for the others.

Again did you read where he cleared up any issues that some people might not of read into in his second post?

When he said "For Many people", to me that implied majority. I wouldn't consider 17 out of 100 to be "many". If you mix Propecia and minoxidil together, that 17 becomes probably about 7%. The two together enhance the percentages of responders drastically. He implied many, and then stated plainly that the products just dont work.

So are you now claiming that these products results don't dimish over time? If that is the case you would be one of the first people I have ever seen say these products will give you the same results, and never start to dimish. Even the scientific community is not bold enough to make a claim like that, because they know it is not correct.

There is not one thing wrong with making people aware these drugs are not perfect. I don't know if your intent for this site is to turn it into a wonderland were no bad ever happens, but by saying "stop being so negative" you are on your way. You went off on a tangent at the end there and made some obscure comments and a lot of banter that is pointless to say the least. I never said these products don't work, and if you read into his first post you would see that even though he said "they don't and won't work" it has been taken completely out of context. He was referring to the fact that "they don't and won't work" at keeping any results you might see from the treatments for a long span of time. Like I said before just read the second post and it would become quite clear as to what he meant.

 

[Lossfer]

Conclusion?

As the originator of this thread, might I suggest we close it now. I think we have reached the point of dimminshing returns. I tried to make a subtle point but apparently this medium is not conducive to it conveyance. I could restate my original argument but honestly I can't think of way to do so more clearly than I did in my previous posts. Let's return to discussing the ways to make the most of what we have now in terms of treatment and what might be on the horizon.

 

[Odelay]

Ditto what Lossfer said, and if I put any words into your mouth Lossfer I did not mean to do so. I just felt that I knew exactly what you were saying and what your intent was by saying what you did in your first post, even if others did not see where you were coming from. In all I think it was a good post, some people just overreacted and it spiraled down from there.

 

[Lossfer]

Odelay--You pretty much nailed what I was trying to say. Thanks for covering my back.

 

[GourmetStyleWellness]

The bottom line here, that Odelay doesn't seem to understand, is that people read *one* post saying "Propecia and Rogaine dont work, its useless, why bother" ... and they believe it. They live by it. They take that information and they walk. There is no arguing to be done on that point. It's a fact.

Everyone needs to be VERY CAREFUL about what you say here because there is a very large audience who read these posts and we are very concerned that they understand things.

We didn't create a whole website with solid scientific facts only to have one guy say "Dude this stuff sucks, dont bother with it" and ruin everything science has worked so hard to prove. So we will correct posts that say these things, or even imply these things ... or even ... ones that aren't totally clear. Its for the lurkers and newbies.

For every post with *slight* misinformation in it, there are 100 newbies who don't know any better and dont "read the follow up posts" to see the "corrections" .... Nor do they see us fixing your information. So telling me that he clarified later is all good and well but the damage was done.

Please be a lot more careful in saying what you mean. Facts are very important on this site because people's hair, self esteem, money, and hope for the future are at stake.

gourmetstylewellness.com