Theory: Cooked Fat =DHT(Dihydrotestosterone) Baldness

[Bryan]

The use of soy is scientifically proven to stop balding too. whats your point?

Wow. Do you have a scientific reference or citation for the claim that eating soy stops balding?

Bryan

 

[Bryan]

Good hair is a sign of hormonal health. Testosterone is a hormone. DHT is a hormone. If these hormones are in balance for an individual then imo there should be no baldness.

Your constant use of the term "in balance" in this context is ambiguous and misleading. Everybody knows that if androgens are reduced sufficiently, that will stop further balding or keep it from occurring in the first place, but you're not going to be able to reduce them enough for that purpose just through dietary methods alone. At least, not for the VAST MAJORITY of guys who are balding.

After all, people don't go bald before puberty.

Oh, do you really think you can put yourself back into a pre-pubertal state by altering your diet??

As for your assertion that diet has no effect on hair health, explain this:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/3607815.stm

and yes this is science. If there was any way of creating a drug out of this, drug companies would be on it in a second.

I think you're vastly over-reaching on that one. It's true that equol from soy has an effect that's ultimately rather similar to finasteride (although it works in a different fashion than finasteride), but that doesn't mean that eating reasonable amounts of soy is going to have exactly the same effectiveness for hair that finasteride (for example) has. The point of that article was simply to show that an isolated molecule found in soy has the potential to be useful for this kind of problem, if they could somehow isolate it, extract it, and use it in a drug-like fashion.

now try and tell me hormone balance has nothing to do with male pattern baldness. And yes, diet strongly influences hormonal balance.

Diet influences hormonal levels (let's avoid use of the word "balance" in this context), but doesn't alter androgen levels enough to have any significant effect on balding.

Bryan

 

[wookster]

http://www.thepaleodiet.com/articles/Hy ... 0Final.pdf

ABSTRACT

Compensatory hyperinsulinemia stemming from peripheral insulin resistance is a well recognized metabolic disturbance that is at the root cause of diseases and maladies of Syndrome X (hypertension, type 2 diabetes, dyslipidemia, coronary artery disease, obesity, abnormal glucose tolerance). Abnormalities of fibrinolysis and hyperuricaemia also appear to be members of the cluster of illnesses comprising Syndrome X. Insulin is a well established growth promoting hormone, and recent evidence indicates that hyperinsulinemia causes a shift in a number of endocrine pathways that may favor unregulated tissue growth leading to additional illnesses. Specifically, hyperinsulinemia elevates serum concentrations of free insulin like growth factor 1 (IGF-1) and androgens while simultaneously reducing insulin like growth factor binding protein 3 (IGFBP-3) and sex hormone binding globulin (SHBG). Since IGFBP-3 is a ligand for the nuclear retinoid X receptor α, insulin mediated reductions in IGFBP-3 may also influence transcription of anti-proliferative genes normally activated by the body’s endogenous retinoids. These endocrine shifts alter cellular proliferation and growth in a variety of tissues whose clinical course may promote acne, early menarche, certain epithelial cell carcinomas, increased stature, myopia, cutaneous papillomas (skin tags), acanthosis nigricans, polycystic ovary syndrome (PCOS) and male vertex balding. Consequently, these illnesses and conditions may, in part, have hyperinsulinemia at their root cause and therefore should be classified among the diseases of Syndrome X.

 

[DammitLetMeIn]

Sometimes I wonder why we bother Wookster.

They see the articles but they don't come to them with an open mind. They come to them with a negative mindframe.

They see what they want to see.

 

[DammitLetMeIn]

Poor sampling size and no external or internal validity taint every article that you posted. Simple, small studies simply demonstrate an idea. They don't prove a theory.

So what you saying Doctor...you don't believe people who are balding have lower levels of SHBG?

 

[DammitLetMeIn]

i think its funny his first reference concludes genetics and polycystic ovary syndrome..

The purpose of the article wasn't for entertainment. You were supposed to focus on this line:

'we tried to exclude other hormonal causes or to find a criterion for the apt candidates for the treatment in 15 young men with premature androgenetic alopecia. Hormonal analysis discovered a significantly lower plasma level of sexual binding globulin (SHBG) and FSH and nearly significantly higher concentration of 17 alpha-hydroxyprogesterone.

the second and third and fourth just say male equivalent of polycystic ovary syndrome.'..

again, you were supposed to focus on SHBG

Only one referenced insulin but but none showed the actual test data and was vague as hell...

It wasn't insulin i was pointing to. It was the fact that SHBG lvels are lower in balding men.

It still didn't prove anything other then saying low SHBG levels but it didn't even say there was a control or comparison to what was the "normal" levels. Or the percent differences. Because ALL that were tested were NW2 or worse from what it said.

I shall find more.

 

[DammitLetMeIn]

Your constant use of the term "in balance" in this context is ambiguous and misleading. Everybody knows that if androgens are reduced sufficiently, that will stop further balding or keep it from occurring in the first place, but you're not going to be able to reduce them enough for that purpose just through dietary methods alone. At least, not for the VAST MAJORITY of guys who are balding..

i beg to differ. people who go bald have elevated dht and low shbg. both of which can be altered and improved by diet.

Oh, do you really think you can put yourself back into a pre-pubertal state by altering your diet?? ..

Did you read what i said?

I think you're vastly over-reaching on that one. It's true that equol from soy has an effect that's ultimately rather similar to finasteride (although it works in a different fashion than finasteride), but that doesn't mean that eating reasonable amounts of soy is going to have exactly the same effectiveness for hair that finasteride (for example) has. The point of that article was simply to show that an isolated molecule found in soy has the potential to be useful for this kind of problem, if they could somehow isolate it, extract it, and use it in a drug-like fashion...

untrue. and i think japanese are a testament to that.

http://onhealth.webmd.com/script/main/a ... ekey=56857

Diet influences hormonal levels (let's avoid use of the word "balance" in this context), but doesn't alter androgen levels enough to have any significant effect on balding.

merely your opinion

 

[Bryan]

Your constant use of the term "in balance" in this context is ambiguous and misleading. Everybody knows that if androgens are reduced sufficiently, that will stop further balding or keep it from occurring in the first place, but you're not going to be able to reduce them enough for that purpose just through dietary methods alone. At least, not for the VAST MAJORITY of guys who are balding..

i beg to differ. people who go bald have elevated dht and low shbg. both of which can be altered and improved by diet.

I actually agree with you on everything you said there: despite the fact that there are somewhat conflicting results from studies that looked at androgen levels in balding and non-balding men, nevertheless I think it's probably true that there are higher average levels in balding men. Furthermore, I can even accept that androgen levels can be reduced to some extent by careful attention to diet. However (and that's a BIG "however"! ), you haven't provided so much as one iota of scientific evidence in this entire huge thread that altering your diet in such a manner has any significant effect whatsoever on the course of balding in men with androgenetic alopecia. I strongly suggest that henceforth, you focus your time and attention on that one specific detail which is so clearly missing from your overall argument. Abstract theorizing is one thing, PROOF is quite another. Until you can provide such direct physical evidence, you're just spinning your wheels and wasting your time.

Bryan

 

[DammitLetMeIn]

[
I actually agree with you on everything you said there: despite the fact that there are somewhat conflicting results from studies that looked at androgen levels in balding and non-balding men, nevertheless I think it's probably true that there are higher average levels in balding men. Furthermore, I can even accept that androgen levels can be reduced to some extent by careful attention to diet. However (and that's a BIG "however"! ), you haven't provided so much as one iota of scientific evidence in this entire huge thread that altering your diet in such a manner has any significant effect whatsoever on the course of balding in men with androgenetic alopecia. I strongly suggest that henceforth, you focus your time and attention on that one specific detail which is so clearly missing from your overall argument. Abstract theorizing is one thing, PROOF is quite another. Until you can provide such direct physical evidence, you're just spinning your wheels and wasting your time.

Bryan

well, altering your diet changes SHBG levels. How do you feel about SHBG levels and their impact in male pattern baldness?

For Skyline & Doctor:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/quer ... ds=6684473

Baldness was significantly increased in male relatives of hirsute women. ...
http://linkinghub.elsevier.com/retrieve ... 3404000926

Dietary impact upon SHBG levels:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/quer ... ds=2697481

 

[docj077]

Poor sampling size and no external or internal validity taint every article that you posted. Simple, small studies simply demonstrate an idea. They don't prove a theory.

So what you saying Doctor...you don't believe people who are balding have lower levels of SHBG?

Obviously not. Some of the studies that you yourself posted demonstrated that. Saying that a test is statistically significant in such a small population really makes no difference in the science of hair loss (especially when many of the volunteers had aggressive male pattern baldness). Many of the studies say that some or many of the research subjects demonstrated this difference. However, since I don't have access to the actual results of any of those experiments, I can't make any logical conclusions. Some of the studies even mention that although testosterone levels were increased, the difference between the controls was not statistically important. Plus, they do not establish what a "low" SHBG value is in the abstract, so once again we can't jump to conclusions. The statistical change that they're seeing might be a change that is still within the confines of the normal values for that protein.

Posting abstracts doesn't really help us and I don't have the time to go looking for the entire article.

 

[DammitLetMeIn]

Obviously not. Some of the studies that you yourself posted demonstrated that. Saying that a test is statistically significant in such a small population really makes no difference in the science of hair loss (especially when many of the volunteers had aggressive male pattern baldness). Many of the studies say that some or many of the research subjects demonstrated this difference. However, since I don't have access to the actual results of any of those experiments, I can't make any logical conclusions. Some of the studies even mention that although testosterone levels were increased, the difference between the controls was not statistically important. Plus, they do not establish what a "low" SHBG value is in the abstract, so once again we can't jump to conclusions. The statistical change that they're seeing might be a change that is still within the confines of the normal values for that protein.

Posting abstracts doesn't really help us and I don't have the time to go looking for the entire article.

Well, I can't access the full articles. but i am 110% sure that SHBG levels are lower in balding men.

Its all over the web. http://www.blackwell-synergy.com/doi/ab ... .tb03538.x

Some of you folks need to address whats staring you in the face and free yourselves from old minsets and dogma.

 

[Bertie]

Some of you folks need to address whats staring you in the face and free yourselves from old minsets and dogma.

There is someone on this thread who needs to look at what is staring you in the face. But it isn't us.

Consider this -- I can say, beyond all doubt, that the number of serious medical authorities working in the area of hair loss who believe that hair loss in an already balding man can be controlled with diet alone is vanishingly close to zero. I'm not talking alternative medicine quacks pushing books here; I'm talking real researchers. You believe that the establishment is mistaken on this point, but here is no doubt whatsoever as to what the consensus opinion is.

Furthermore, consider this -- there is, in the search archives of this and other hair loss forums like alt.baldspot or HLH or hairsite, a vast wealth of accumulated information. Posters come and go, and some of them stay around a while and attract followings, and many of these people are just as hostile to drugs and doctors and as pro-natural as you are. But as you scan those archives, I do not believe you will find a single important poster (not some fly by night quack such as yourself) who believes that hair loss in an already balding man can be controlled by diet alone. You really are totally isolated on this issue.

Now ask yourself -- are you so brilliant that you, in the 2 weeks or whatever you have been searching pubmed abstracts, have discovered a secret of hair loss that literally everyone else on the planet worth listening to has missed?

 

[DammitLetMeIn]

There is someone on this thread who needs to look at what is staring you in the face. But it isn't us.?

Wrong. You should try reading the material I have presented rather than churning out the tired old 'diet doesn't affect hairloss' when it blantanty does.

Consider this -- I can say, beyond all doubt, that the number of serious medical authorities working in the area of hair loss who believe that hair loss in an already balding man can be controlled with diet alone is vanishingly close to zero.

'medical authorities' don't believe in nutrition to treat 'disease' (as they see it). they chase drug development. Where hormones are concerned, this is a grave mistake.

I'm not talking alternative medicine quacks pushing books here; I'm talking real researchers.

Herein lies your problem. Your mind is closed. You are being very disrespectful calling alternative medicine practitioners 'quacks'. What they write is backed up by science. You telling me medical doctors don't write books?

You believe that the establishment is mistaken on this point, but here is no doubt whatsoever as to what the consensus opinion is..

consensus from who? western medicine authorities who treat symptoms of disease rather than addressing there cause?

But as you scan those archives, I do not believe you will find a single important poster (not some fly by night quack such as yourself) who believes that hair loss in an already balding man can be controlled by diet alone. ..

So you get to say who is an 'important' poster? gtfoh

You really are totally isolated on this issue...

Far from it my friend. There are many who believe the things I do. Even medical science has backed up a LOT of what I say.

Now ask yourself -- are you so brilliant that you

Therein lies your problem. You've come to this thread with a closed mind and have taken someone who brings an alternative viewpoint personally. Why are you so intimidated?

in the 2 weeks or whatever you have been searching pubmed abstracts, have discovered a secret of hair loss that literally everyone else on the planet worth listening to has missed?

Is that so unbelievable? Besides, I don't think people have 'missed' anything. Everything I say has been written about before on the web either by doctors, alternative practitioners or bloggers. I am just pulling it together.

The world isn't flat you know.

 

[DammitLetMeIn]

Men go bald as they get older because their insulin increases and their tissues become insulin resistant. This leads to estrogen dominance. Estrogen dominance corresponds with an increase in SHBG. This prompts a release of DHT and higher levels of DHT. Higher levels of DHT cause the baldness.

Thats my opinion atm.

So imo keep your insulin as low as possible through eating low glycemic foods which don't cause insulin spikes.

 

[docj077]

Men go bald as they get older because their insulin increases and their tissues become insulin resistant. This leads to estrogen dominance. Estrogen dominance corresponds with an increase in SHBG. This prompts a release of DHT and higher levels of DHT. Higher levels of DHT cause the baldness.

Thats my opinion atm.

So imo keep your insulin as low as possible through eating low glycemic foods which don't cause insulin spikes.

Not every man exhibits an increase in insulin resistance. Nor does insulin resistance lead to estrogen dominance. In men, there is no such thing as estrogen dominance. It's a misnomer. Estrogen never dominates any androgens in men at any time...ever. Increased estrogens can be found in men with and without male pattern baldness.

 

[Pondle]

Dammit, you've pointed to evidence that certain foodstuffs mayhave an effect on some of the processes underlying male pattern hair loss.

However, these various studies - as Doctor says many of them rather small scale and/or with doubts about their robustness - are a far cry from demonstrating tangible results(in terms of increased hair count, or reduced loss) attributable to a specific diet.

 

[I_Hate_DHT]

Bryan and docj077:

Why are you not taking Propecia???

Is there any danger we are not aware of??

I know you two have a lot of knowledge about hairloss, and it's a bit scary to think that two guys who have a lot of knowledge don't take Propecia. Sounds like there is something we don't know.

 

[Bryan]

Men go bald as they get older because their insulin increases and their tissues become insulin resistant. This leads to estrogen dominance.

Where did you get THAT idea?? Reference or citation, please.

Estrogen dominance corresponds with an increase in SHBG. This prompts a release of DHT and higher levels of DHT.

LOL!! Where did you get THAT idea?? Reference or citation, please.

Do you have any idea how DHT is actually formed?

Bryan

 

[docj077]

Bryan and docj077:

Why are you not taking Propecia???

Is there any danger we are not aware of??

I know you two have a lot of knowledge about hairloss, and it's a bit scary to think that two guys who have a lot of knowledge don't take Propecia. Sounds like there is something we don't know.

I don't take it, because it actually caused me to develop hyperthyroidism.

Why you ask? I have no idea. The most likely cause is that the possible increase in progesterone associated with 5AR inhibition caused an increase in thyroid hormone production (which was found through labs by my family physician). There are progesterone receptors in the thyroid and that's the only explanation I have for now.

Since I stopped taking propecia, all the symptoms of hyperthyroidism I had such as tremors, palpitations, increased sweating, and agitation have all gone away.

Plus, propecia caused me to have a significant "brain fog" and that simply won't do as I need to function at a fairly high level constantly.

 

[DammitLetMeIn]

Not every man exhibits an increase in insulin resistance. Nor does insulin resistance lead to estrogen dominance. In men, there is no such thing as estrogen dominance. It's a misnomer. Estrogen never dominates any androgens in men at any time...ever. Increased estrogens can be found in men with and without male pattern baldness.

Maybe estrogen dominance is the wrong turn of phrase. But, from what I have read, a 60 year old man can have more estrogen than a 60 year old woman if the conditions in the body are right.

Men go bald as they get older because their insulin increases and their tissues become insulin resistant. This leads to estrogen dominance.

Where did you get THAT idea?? Reference or citation, please..

Well, as men grow older their insulin increases through years of consuming high carbohydrate foods and the insulin loses the ability to communicate with some cells. This constitutes insulin resistance. These men (like obese men) have lower testosterone levels and higher estrogen levels. Correspondingly, these men always have high DHT levels. Almost as if DHT has been created/released to ensure they stay a man. I have references citations but they are disparate.

Estrogen dominance corresponds with an increase in SHBG. This prompts a release of DHT and higher levels of DHT.

LOL!! Where did you get THAT idea?? Reference or citation, please.

Do you have any idea how DHT is actually formed?

Bryan[/quote]

Normal women have higher levels of SHBG. As to the precise mechanism of how DHT is formed, no I have not read about it, enlighten me, in laymans' terms.

I do know medical science is self-admittingly very sketchy about this whole thing.

I believe fasting insulin test to be a very impt. test for baldness, have any of you had this measured?

when insulin is low, SHBG is high.