Theory: Cooked Fat =DHT(Dihydrotestosterone) Baldness

[DammitLetMeIn]

Just to be clear to Bryan.

Its not so much that DHT levels increase in men with age (although they invariably do), its more to do with the fact their body composition and insulin levels/resistance are making an impact as they age.

E.g. Obese men produce more DHT. Older people have a tendency to be fat.

 

[Bryan]

and you still haven't acknowledged that you don't have even a whit of evidence to indicate that it would provide any significant benefit in the Real World.

The Japanese 2nd gen in the West?
The consistent linking of male pattern baldness with insulin resistance?
PCOS and male pattern baldness and insulin?

That's not what we've asked you for! Those things you listed above are just CIRCUMSTANTIAL EVIDENCE showing that there _may_ be some type of ASSOCIATION between dietary factors and balding (however tiny it may be). What we want from you is some type of DIRECT EVIDENCE that you can get a significant benefit by simply adopting a dietary program like the one you recommend. So far, you've provided nothing. Absolutely NOTHING.

Bryan

 

[DammitLetMeIn]

That's not what we've asked you for! Those things you listed above are just CIRCUMSTANTIAL EVIDENCE showing that there _may_ be some type of ASSOCIATION between dietary factors and balding (however tiny it may be). What we want from you is some type of DIRECT EVIDENCE that you can get a significant benefit by simply adopting a dietary program like the one you recommend. So far, you've provided nothing. Absolutely NOTHING.

Bryan

Both Wookster and I have provided studies linking high insulin to premature Androgenetic Alopecia. Insulin levels are dictated by diet. What more do you want?

 

[Bryan]

Both Wookster and I have provided studies linking high insulin to premature Androgenetic Alopecia. Insulin levels are dictated by diet. What more do you want?

I want an experiment in which balding men who adopt a diet like the one you recommend are shown to have a noticeable and significant improvement in their condition, using the same scientific protocol as is used in any other hairloss trial (measured haircounts, hairweights, global photographic assessment, etc.).

Bryan

 

[DammitLetMeIn]

I want an experiment in which balding men who adopt a diet like the one you recommend are shown to have a noticeable and significant improvement in their condition, using the same scientific protocol as is used in any other hairloss trial (measured haircounts, hairweights, global photographic assessment, etc.).

Bryan

Its very difficult to get a load of people to do that and have their diet dictated to them like that. Plus sponsors aren't interested in diet. So we either follow what they say or draw our own conclusions from data.

But i will say that Eskimos/native americans and many other isolated peoples all had low insulin levels and baldness was almost unheard of.

I will also say that male pattern baldness in women with PCOS has been ameliorated by diet.

Likewise, hirutism (a symptom of male pattern baldness) can also be reversed by diet in women.

 

[Bryan]

I guess we're at an impasse, then. A Mexican standoff!

It's perfectly alright with me if you're going to continue to argue in favor of your very questionable dietary theory, as long as you acknowledge (as you've now appeared to do) that there is no direct scientific evidence for it of the type I've requested above. Lacking such direct evidence, I doubt that you're going to get many followers...

Bryan

 

[DammitLetMeIn]

I guess we're at an impasse, then. A Mexican standoff!

I wouldn't like to think there was any animosity. There certainly isn't on my part. Imo you have been one of the more open-minded people in this thread.

It's perfectly alright with me if you're going to continue to argue in favor of your very questionable dietary theory, as long as you acknowledge (as you've now appeared to so) that there is no direct scientific evidence for it of the type I've requested above.

Of the type you've requested above, perhaps not as of yet. However, there has been plenty said about insulin levels/resistance, baldness and diet.

I doubt that you'll get many followers...

lol, I don't need or want followers as such. I would simply like people to approach the issue with an open mind and be willing to perhaps bring forth studies which link dietary factors to male pattern baldness and to share their experiences.

In my mind there is no doubt there is a strong link.

Also, Michael Barry talked about a experiment where rats were given a low caloric diet and they ended up with shiny hair whereas high insulin ones didn't. (i think thats what he alluded to anyway).


Edit: Oh, one other thing Bryan, are you a fan of breadstuffs etc cos I read on an old thread that you love good bowl of pasta Watch those insulin levels :freaked2: :lol:

 

[docj077]

Here is a big enough cohort to make an adequate conclusion.

1: Cent Eur J Public Health. 2006 Jun;14(2):78-81. Links
Association of insulin resistance linked diseases and hair loss in elderly men. Finnish population-based study.Hirsso P, Laakso M, Matilainen V, Hiltunen L, Rajala U, Jokelainen J, Keinanen-Kiukaanniemi S.
University of Oulu, Department of Public Health Science and General Practice, Finland. [email protected]

Previous investigations have shown an association of androgenetic alopecia (Androgenetic Alopecia) with insulin resistance related disorders such as ischemic heart disease. An association between Androgenetic Alopecia and anthropometric abnormalities linked with insulin resistance and heredity in women aged 63 years has also been shown. We therefore compared 63-year-old men with Androgenetic Alopecia and ones with normal hair status for insulin resistance linked parameters. A population of 245 men aged 63 years, who were participants in a population-based cross-sectional study in the City of Oulu, underwent a medical check-up including assessment of hair status on the Hamilton-Norwood scale and determination of anthropometric measures, blood pressure, fasting glucose and serum lipids. Fifty eight per cent of the men reported extensive hair loss (grade III-VII). Hypertension and the use of antihypertensive drugs were common among men with Androgenetic Alopecia (61% vs. 45% and 50% vs. 26%, respectively). The rates of diabetes and hyperinsulinemia (21% vs. 12% and 61% vs. 49%) were higher among men with Androgenetic Alopecia compared to those with normal hair status but no difference was seen in other factors. Our findings show that Androgenetic Alopecia is common among Finnish men aged 63 years but that it is also associated with insulin linked disturbances, such as hypertension and diabetes. Such men developing Androgenetic Alopecia might benefit from attention in medical check-up.




So, as you can see not all men with Androgenetic Alopecia suffer from hyperinsulinemia and not all men with Androgenetic Alopecia suffer from other pathologies. The rates are higher, but not higher in every male.

There is a link, but not every man in this study has the problems that you say that EVERY SINGLE man with male pattern baldness seems to have. In fact, it's more like half. That's not good enough. There's a link, but it's not the cause of the disease. Not even close.

 

[Bryan]

I guess we're at an impasse, then. A Mexican standoff!

I wouldn't like to think there was any animosity. There certainly isn't on my part. Imo you have been one of the more open-minded people in this thread.

Thanks, I appreciate that. I certainly have no animosity, either.

Edit: Oh, one other thing Bryan, are you a fan of breadstuffs etc cos I read on an old thread that you love good bowl of pasta Watch those insulin levels :freaked2: :lol:

Heheh. Just to show that there are no hard feelings, here's a scan of a short study from the journal Diabetes showing the insulin-regulating effects of vinegar! All you need to do is take a small amount prior to each meal (dilute it in water, of course), and it appears to have a Metformin-like effect on blood sugar and insulin. I've been using it myself, when I can remember:

http://www.geocities.com/bryan50001/vinegar_insulin.htm

Bryan

 

[DammitLetMeIn]

So, as you can see not all men with Androgenetic Alopecia suffer from hyperinsulinemia and not all men with Androgenetic Alopecia suffer from other pathologies. The rates are higher, but not higher in every male.

But don't you see that what is high for one male may not be high for another. A man may not need to 'hyperinsulemic' before he begins to bald. All that may be required is that his insulin levels are higher than his biochemistry would desire.

There is a link, but not every man in this study has the problems that you say that EVERY SINGLE man with male pattern baldness seems to have. In fact, it's more like half. That's not good enough. There's a link, but it's not the cause of the disease. Not even close.

I disagree. Like I said, some people do not have to be hyperinsulemic but merely have insulin spikes/levels higher than their body is prepared to accept.

Don't forget our genes evolved through an awful lot of lean periods of starvation where insulin was undoubtedly low.

Its perfectly plausible that some people have less tolerance to comparably minor increase in insulin levels.

 

[bubka]

E.g. Obese men produce more DHT. Older people have a tendency to be fat.

right there you are wrong, weight CAN increase with age, especially this the typical American diet; however, weight then goes back down, you don't see elderly fat people, they are dead, and 66% of those men or more, are BALD.

YET another fact that blows your theory apart

by this, most men reach max weight at 45 - 55, LONG after they start balding, and guess what, when you lose weight, you do not regrow hair

 

[docj077]

So, as you can see not all men with Androgenetic Alopecia suffer from hyperinsulinemia and not all men with Androgenetic Alopecia suffer from other pathologies. The rates are higher, but not higher in every male.

But don't you see that what is high for one male may not be high for another. A man may not need to 'hyperinsulemic' before he begins to bald. All that may be required is that his insulin levels are higher than his biochemistry would desire.

There is a link, but not every man in this study has the problems that you say that EVERY SINGLE man with male pattern baldness seems to have. In fact, it's more like half. That's not good enough. There's a link, but it's not the cause of the disease. Not even close.

I disagree. Like I said, some people do not have to be hyperinsulemic but merely have insulin spikes/levels higher than their body is prepared to accept.

Don't forget our genes evolved through an awful lot of lean periods of starvation where insulin was undoubtedly low.

Its perfectly plausible that some people have less tolerance to comparably minor increase in insulin levels.

You disagree with a study that had over 200 participants and yet you accept your studies that had only 10-30 or more participants?

You have problems and you're still wrong.

 

[wookster]

Baldness goes way back in the family tree... :hairy: :freaked: :hairy:

 

[DammitLetMeIn]

right there you are wrong,

smh, no I'm not.

weight CAN increase with age,

Lets be real. Weight generally DOES increase with age. If not weight, then at least the % of fat in terms of total body composition. Your chart, big as it is, does not account for body composition.

especially this the typical American diet;

Indeed, I place a lot of the ills of baldness at the SAD's door.

however, weight then goes back down, you don't see elderly fat people, they are dead, and 66% of those men or more, are BALD.;

Whats your point? when hair is lost especially over a period of years the follicles are going to be damaged.

YET another fact that blows your theory apart

You're not capable of blowing my theory apart because you never read anything I have posted closely enough. You come across dismissive and close-minded.

by this, most men reach max weight at 45 - 55, LONG after they start balding, and guess what, when you lose weight, you do not regrow hair

Once you reach a certain age it is difficult to get insulin sensitivity back to what it once was. Like I said, it is not weight that matters so much as the overall bodyfat % as this is a marker of insulin resistance.

I feel there is much to be gained regarding hair loss by never spiking your insulin and keeping your insulin low.

Imo one should not eat bread (glycemic index in the high 80s and similar products) unless it is combined with a slow release food which would affect its overall glycemic index.

There have been a number of studies posted in this thread linking insulin to hair loss and it is a topic which repeatedly comes up in different hair loss forum and is implicated in PCOS male pattern baldness. It is entirely up to you whether you want to ignore this information. But don't say it is invalid, because theres obviously some connection.

 

[The Gardener]

Obviously, our primate friend must have eaten too many simple carbs.

Or maybe he just whacks off too much?

 

[bubka]

again, you refute the genetic evidence which blows your theory apart, did pre human, ape like creatures start balding because of diet, or was it a mutation, which was selectively increased because of female mating desire???

that is the theory of how male pattern baldness was started, and why we have it today, yet you seem to think that the American diet causes baldness, and cooking fat...

 

[DammitLetMeIn]

You disagree with a study that had over 200 participants and yet you accept your studies that had only 10-30 or more participants?.

Ordinarily, I wouldn't disagree with such a study, however,I have done alot of reading about insulin over the years and it is clear to me that some people are more sensitive to its effects than others.

You have problems and you're still wrong.

On the contrary, I don't have any problems. And, no I'm not wrong.

Listen: YOU DON'T HAVE TO BE HYPERINSULEMIC TO SUFFER ADVERSE CONSEQUENCES FROM INCREASED INSULIN

Its like people can suffer from adverse effects of low iron without being anemic.

 

[bubka]

you still have no clue as the cause of male pattern baldness, no fing clue, we told you about the androgen receptors, and their predisposition androgen sensitivity, but whatever, we just like arguing with you because everything you say it either proven untrue, and the you have to change your theory yet again, like when we told you about male pattern baldness in apes

tell me again how you are not an ape too :roll:

 

[DammitLetMeIn]

again, you refute the genetic evidence which blows your theory apart,

It doesn't.

did pre human, ape like creatures start balding because of diet, or was it a mutation, which was selectively increased because of female mating desire???

If you read up on it you'll finding that species of balding monkeys have evolved through exactly this mechanism. I provided evidence of that which obviously you didn't read. (no surprise there)

The pictures are very nice and all that but one really can't compare apes who are sooo far back in our evolution.

Balding is a sign of aging and insulin regulates the aging process. Go figure.

that is the theory of how male pattern baldness was started, and why we have it today, yet you seem to think that the American diet causes baldness, and cooking fat...

The American Indians didn't have it. The Eskimos didn't have it. I was even reading studies on this earlier. Didn't they evolve from apes?

High insulin invoking diet does have a major hand to play in baldness yes, because it lowers SHBG amongst other things.

Cooked ANIMAL fats do also have a hand to play as they RAISE DHT. Look at prostate cancer.

 

[docj077]

You disagree with a study that had over 200 participants and yet you accept your studies that had only 10-30 or more participants?.

Ordinarily, I wouldn't disagree with such a study, however,I have done alot of reading about insulin over the years and it is clear to me that some people are more sensitive to its effects than others.

You have problems and you're still wrong.

On the contrary, I don't have any problems. And, no I'm not wrong.

Listen: YOU DON'T HAVE TO BE HYPERINSULEMIC TO SUFFER ADVERSE CONSEQUENCES FROM INCREASED INSULIN

Its like people can suffer from adverse effects of low iron without being anemic.

Still wrong.