Theory: Cooked Fat =DHT(Dihydrotestosterone) Baldness

[DammitLetMeIn]

You just proved my point. Thank you. Increased IGF-1 is associated with hair growth and regrowth.

Not 'increased'. But some. Of course some is needed.

The only reason theres an increase with finasteride is because the follicle wasn't growing before.

'Increased' IGF-1 is NOT associated with hair growth, in fact its associated with vertex baldness and increased 5ar activity.

 

[docj077]

Only peer reviewed journals are accepted on these forums.

Thats a pretty lame way to evade the fact that increased IGF-1 is associated with increased 5ar activity and vertex baldness.

Why won't you accept whats there and recognise that high IGF-1 levels means more 5ar activity and more DHT and more baldness?

Nope, actually it's the means by which the scientific community establishes its own set of check and balances.

What you can't seem to get through your thick head is that the articles you posted looked at 5AR in scrotal skin fibroblasts and not the scalp, which has numerous areas of 5AR activity. That's a completely different area of the body. Why can't you understand that the simplistic way you see things is not how they actually work?

IGF-1 IS A PRO-GROWTH MOLECULE. LOWER LEVELS OF DHT ENCOURAGE AN INCREASE IN IGF-1 PRODUCTION CAUSING HAIR GROWTH AND REGROWTH.

In case you still fail to understand this fact, here it is again in bigger font:

IGF-1 IS A PRO-GROWTH MOLECULE. LOWER LEVELS OF DHT ENCOURAGE AN INCREASE IN IGF-1 PRODUCTION CAUSING HAIR GROWTH AND REGROWTH.

 

[docj077]

You just proved my point. Thank you. Increased IGF-1 is associated with hair growth and regrowth.

Not 'increased'. But some. Of course some is needed.

The only reason theres an increase with finasteride is because the follicle wasn't growing before.

'Increased' IGF-1 is NOT associated with hair growth, in fact its associated with vertex baldness and increased 5ar activity.

I'll just post a small study like you do to make my point.

J Am Acad Dermatol. 2003 Aug;49(2):229-33. Links
The expression of insulin-like growth factor 1 in follicular dermal papillae correlates with therapeutic efficacy of finasteride in androgenetic alopecia.Tang L, Bernardo O, Bolduc C, Lui H, Madani S, Shapiro J.
Division of Dermatology, The University of British Columbia, Vancouver Hospital, Canada.

BACKGROUND: It is generally believed that dihydrotestosterone is one of the pivotal mediators of hair loss in androgenetic alopecia (Androgenetic Alopecia). Finasteride, which blocks the conversion of testosterone to dihydrotestosterone, has now become an integral part of the current treatment approaches for male Androgenetic Alopecia. Several lines of evidence support the notion that dermal papilla (DP) cells represent the androgen target within the hair follicle. The specific molecular regulators modulated by androgens within hair follicles in the balding scalp are unknown. OBJECTIVE: The purpose of this study was to identify and quantify changes in expression of specific molecular hair growth regulators in DP of men with Androgenetic Alopecia treated with finasteride and correlate these findings to clinical efficacy. METHODS: Biopsy specimens were collected from 9 male patients from both the balding area and nonbalding occipital area before and after 4 months of finasteride therapy. DP were microdissected and total RNA was extracted from an equal number of DP from each biopsy specimen. The expression of various cytokines, including insulin-like growth factor (IGF)-1, was determined by reverse transcription polymerase chain reaction. The signals were detected by autoradiography. All 9 patients were given finasteride for 1 year and evaluated for efficacy at month 12. Efficacy was graded on a 7-point scale on the basis of comparison with initial baseline photography. RESULTS: IGF-1 was up-regulated by finasteride treatment in 4 of 9 patients. Among the patients with increased IGF-1 expression, 3 of them showed moderate clinical improvement after 12 months of treatment and another patient remained unchanged. In contrast, 3 patients with decreased IGF-1 expression in the balding scalp showed clinical worsening after 12 months. The other 2 patients without noticeable change in IGF-1 expression showed either slight improvement or no change in their hair condition. CONCLUSION: In a small uncontrolled study of 9 patients with Androgenetic Alopecia, an increased expression of IGF-1 messenger RNA levels in the DP was associated with patient response to finasteride.

 

[DammitLetMeIn]

Let be real clear for you:

'The action of added insulin-like growth factor-I (IGF-I) and dihydrotestosterone (DHT) on steroid 5 alpha-reductase (5 alpha R) activity was studied using primary cultures of rat or human scrotal skin fibroblasts.'

'Since the effect of IGF-I was about 100 times that of androgen, we studied the possibility that androgen induction of the enzyme activity could be via IGF-I production.'

Conclusion:

These studies indicate that IGF-I may be an important regulator of skin 5 alpha R activity and, thus, may influence DHT formation.

^^^^

If they can draw such a conclusion, then why can't you? Skin is skin. 5ar/DHT causes hair growth all over the body.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

IGF-1 IS A PRO-GROWTH MOLECULE. LOWER LEVELS OF DHT ENCOURAGE AN INCREASE IN IGF-1 PRODUCTION CAUSING HAIR GROWTH AND REGROWTH

If you read up, no one disputed this. However, in this experiment DHT production was BLOCKED by finasteride. How about upregulating IGF-1 prudction without a 5ar inhibitor?

I think you'll find the outcome might be something like this:

Study 1:

'We evaluated the relations of plasma concentrations of IGF-1 and IGFBP-3 with vertex balding in middle-aged and elderly men.'

'Compared with men who were not balding, for a 1 standard deviation increase in plasma IGF-1 level (72.4 ng/mL), the OR for vertex balding was 1. 31 (95% CI, 0.95-1.81).'

CONCLUSION: Older men with vertex balding have lower circulating levels of IGFBP-3 and higher levels of IGF-1

Study 2:

'We assessed the relationship between circulating hormone measurements and both head and chest hair patterning in a sample of elderly men.'

'Fifty-one apparently healthy men older than 65 years of age were studied cross-sectionally. Head and chest hair patterning was assessed by a trained interviewer. Morning blood samples from all subjects were used for measurements of testosterone, estradiol, dehydroepiandrosterone sulfate, SHBG, and IGF-1.'

RESULTS: Results were obtained from logistic regression models, adjusting simultaneously for all the measured hormones and age. Men with higher levels of testosterone were more likely to have vertex baldness (odds ratio [OR] = 2.5, 95% confidence interval [CI: 0.9 to 7.8] per 194 ng/dL increment of testosterone). In addition, for each 59 ng/mL increase in IGF-1, the odds of having vertex baldness doubled (95% CI [1.0 to 4.6]). Those who were found to have higher circulating levels of SHBG were less likely to have dense hair on their chest (OR = 0.4, 95% CI [0.1 to 0.9] per 24 nmol/L increment in SHBG]).

 

[docj077]

Let be real clear for you:

'The action of added insulin-like growth factor-I (IGF-I) and dihydrotestosterone (DHT) on steroid 5 alpha-reductase (5 alpha R) activity was studied using primary cultures of rat or human scrotal skin fibroblasts.'

'Since the effect of IGF-I was about 100 times that of androgen, we studied the possibility that androgen induction of the enzyme activity could be via IGF-I production.'

Conclusion:

These studies indicate that IGF-I may be an important regulator of skin 5 alpha R activity and, thus, may influence DHT formation.

^^^^

If they can draw such a conclusion, then why can't you? Skin is skin. 5ar/DHT causes hair growth all over the body.-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

After seeing you write that, I know that you're clueless. Skin IS NOT skin. Skin is different in different parts of the body and exposed to differing environmental and endogenous factors at different times.

And, no, DHT DOES NOT cause hair growth all over the body. Only in areas that are sensitive to its action.


I've decided that I'm done with this thread. You lack the needed education to continue this conversation and I'm too busy with more important studies in neuropathology.

 

[DammitLetMeIn]

And, no, DHT DOES NOT cause hair growth all over the body. Only in areas that are sensitive to its action. .

OF WHICH THE SCALP IS ONE aND SCROTAL SKIN IS ANOTHER - THATS THE WHOLE POINT.

The experiments clearly show that the scalps of balding men had higher IGF-1 so I am clearly right on that score.

 

[docj077]

IGF-1 IS A PRO-GROWTH MOLECULE. LOWER LEVELS OF DHT ENCOURAGE AN INCREASE IN IGF-1 PRODUCTION CAUSING HAIR GROWTH AND REGROWTH.

If you read up, no one disputed this. However, in this experiment DHT production was BLOCKED by finasteride.

If you read up, you'll also notice that facial hair growth is mediated by IGF-1, as well.

Also, IGF-1 is anti-apoptotic in the hair follicle. You posted this very article, I believe:

http://dermatology.cdlib.org/DOJvol5num ... ws/su.html

 

[DammitLetMeIn]

You seem to want to ignore whats been recorded by researchers:

Look:

'In addition, for each 59 ng/mL increase in IGF-1, the odds of having vertex baldness doubled (95% CI [1.0 to 4.6]).'

I don't know how much clearer you want it.

The more IGF-1 is increased the more likely you aer to get vertex baldness. If what you're sayig is true, these guys should've been growing chest and scalp hair like crazy - but thats not what happened.

Forget the finisteride study, the body is under the influence of a drug in that study.

 

[docj077]

And, no, DHT DOES NOT cause hair growth all over the body. Only in areas that are sensitive to its action. .

OF WHICH THE SCALP IS ONE aND SCROTAL SKIN IS ANOTHER - THATS THE WHOLE POINT.

The experiments clearly show that the scalps of balding men had higher IGF-1 so I am clearly right on that score.

No, the whole point is that every study that you posted demonstrated higher levels of PLASMA IGF-1. You never posted a single study that demonstrated increased levels of IGF-1 in the scalp of men with male pattern baldness and you merely made the connection between high IGF-1 and increased 5AR activity by looking at a study that was done in-vitro.

Sorry, still no proof from you, because you're once again jumping to conclusion.

 

[docj077]

You seem to want to ignore whats been recorded by researchers:

Look:

'In addition, for each 59 ng/mL increase in IGF-1, the odds of having vertex baldness doubled (95% CI [1.0 to 4.6]).'

I don't know how much clearer you want it.

The more IGF-1 is increased the more likely you aer to get vertex baldness. If what you're sayig is true, these guys should've been growing chest and scalp hair like crazy - but thats not what happened.

Forget the finisteride study, the body is under the influence of a drug in that study.

Again, proving my point.

 

[DammitLetMeIn]

Again, proving my point.

What proved your point - the odds of HAVING vertex doubled with every increase in IGF-1. Have I missed something?

 

[DammitLetMeIn]

And again:

'In summary, regulation of human hair growth by androgen is probably mediated by IGF-1 in the dermal papilla. In male scalp, high levels of IGF-1 may increase the androgen receptor activity and dihydrotestosterone levels and these result in an increased propensity for baldness.'

http://dermatology.cdlib.org/DOJvol5num ... ws/su.html

 

[docj077]

Again, proving my point.

What proved your point - the odds of HAVING vertex doubled with every increase in IGF-1.

No, the fact that you're basing plasma levels of IGF-1 as the foundation of your argument regarding scalp IGF-1 levels. We're talking about two completely different physiological compartments here.


The other thing that you really, really, really don't understand is the difference between INSULIN and INSULIN-like GROWTH FACTOR 1. They are two molecules that made in completely different tissues that provide two completely different functions.

 

[docj077]

And again:

'In summary, regulation of human hair growth by androgen is probably mediated by IGF-1 in the dermal papilla. In male scalp, high levels of IGF-1 may increase the androgen receptor activity and dihydrotestosterone levels and these result in an increased propensity for baldness.'

http://dermatology.cdlib.org/DOJvol5num ... ws/su.html

Speculation on the part of both you and the researcher.

Prove that high IGF-1 levels in the scalp causes male pattern baldness.

 

[DammitLetMeIn]

No, the fact that you're basing plasma levels of IGF-1 as the foundation of your argument regarding scalp IGF-1 levels. We're talking about two completely different physiological compartments here. .

Theres more than one study. Moreover, these are REAL people they studied and the increase in plasma levels led to a huge increase in vertex balding.

The other thing that you really, really, really don't understand is the difference between INSULIN and INSULIN-like GROWTH FACTOR 1. They are two molecules that made in completely different tissues that provide two completely different functions.

Of course I know they're different. But both are influenced by diet.

 

[DammitLetMeIn]

Speculation on the part of both you and the researcher.

Prove that high IGF-1 levels in the scalp causes male pattern baldness.

Read the researchers paper. He's an EXPERT on IGF-1. I think he;d have a pretty good idea.

Moreover, I provided two studies SHOWING that male pattern baldness is increased with IGF-1 levels.

Study 1 involved 431 participants, and study 2 involved 51 participants.

Its clear as day that IGF-1 causes male pattern baldness.

 

[docj077]

No, the fact that you're basing plasma levels of IGF-1 as the foundation of your argument regarding scalp IGF-1 levels. We're talking about two completely different physiological compartments here. .

Theres more than one study.

The other thing that you really, really, really don't understand is the difference between INSULIN and INSULIN-like GROWTH FACTOR 1. They are two molecules that made in completely different tissues that provide two completely different functions.

Of course I know they're different. But both are influenced by diet.

All the studies you posted regarding IGF-1 say the exact same thing. Did you not read them yourself?

Also, you must not understand how they are different, because insulin encourages storage of glycogen and fats and increases amino acid utilization by cells. IGF-1 is produced due to the release of growth hormone form the pituitary. It's function is to accelerate body growth and development and its decrease as we age is associated with all the effects of the aging including increased body fat.

 

[DammitLetMeIn]

All the studies you posted regarding IGF-1 say the exact same thing. Did you not read them yourself?.

Yes, both said increasedIGF-1 led to vertex baldness.

It's function is to accelerate body growth and development and its decrease as we age is associated with all the effects of the aging including increased body fat.

And I've already told you, I know the difference. ITs still related to diet and the studies still show it leads to male pattern baldness.

Moreover, you mention age, but these were more often than not older men who had the incerase of IGF-1.

Tbh, I don't think theres much you can question, the studies show clearly.

btw, inceased bodyfat is not a sign of aging if insulin is kpt low.

 

[docj077]

Speculation on the part of both you and the researcher.

Prove that high IGF-1 levels in the scalp causes male pattern baldness.

Read the researchers paper. He's an EXPERT on IGF-1. I think he;d have a pretty good idea.

Moreover, I provided two studies SHOWING that male pattern baldness is increased with IGF-1 levels.

Study 1 involved 431 participants, and study 2 involved 51 participants.

Its clear as day that IGF-1 causes male pattern baldness.

Increased levels in plasma. Not the scalp. Big difference. Again, you fail to understand this simple concept.

As for your expert, you're not even reading what he's saying. He's saying that IGF-1 is pro-growth and anti-apoptotic. He then jumps to the conclusion that increased levels upregulate androgen receptor production and 5AR production.

He has to pick one, because his opinion switches from one to the other by the end of his article. He contradicts himself.

 

[docj077]

All the studies you posted regarding IGF-1 say the exact same thing. Did you not read them yourself?.

Yes, both said increasedIGF-1 led to vertex baldness.

It's function is to accelerate body growth and development and its decrease as we age is associated with all the effects of the aging including increased body fat.

And I've already told you, I know the difference. ITs still related to diet and the studies still show it leads to male pattern baldness.

Moreover, you mention age, but these were more often than not older men who had the incerase of IGF-1.

Tbh, I don't think theres much you can question, the studies show clearly.

btw, inceased bodyfat is not a sign of aging if insulin is kpt low.

Yes, it is. Increased body fat is associated with a decrease in IGF-1 with aging.