Theory: Cooked Fat =DHT(Dihydrotestosterone) Baldness

[SkylineGTR]

However, prolonged elevation of IGF-1 leads to physical signs and symptoms. This is well documented. Especially, in people that take IGF-1 as a supplement or people that suddenly have their level of IGF-1 altered.

I don't think he grasps the full effects of IGF-1 on the body. Because if this were the magic cause we would all show "other" symptoms related to the elevated levels of this.

Gigantism, prostate cancer, increased muscle mass, sexual function, organ function, the list goes on .....

(from wikipedia)
Almost every cell in the human body is affected by IGF-1, especially cells in muscle, cartilage, bone, liver, kidney, nerves, skin, and lungs. In addition to the insulin-like effects, IGF-1 can also regulate cell growth and development, especially in nerve cells, as well as cellular DNA synthesis.

 

[Guest]

Not to mention that the two type of five alpha reductase are also not equally distributed throughout the scalp. In fact, different regions of the scalp are almost entirely physiologically different with regards to their response to hormones due to the differing concentrations of the type I and type II 5AR isoenzymes in the front vs. the vertex of the scalp.

Doctor, could you possibly elaborate on this? I have never heard this before. Are you saying that like 5ar1 may affect vertex balding more than 5ar2? How do drugs like Avodart stop the balding process for the entire scalp while blocking only half of 5ar1?

 

[DammitLetMeIn]

Nope, frontal recession and vertex balding are not linked processes other than their similar link to dihydrotestosterone

This is the only link they need. Especially when IGF-1 is proven to stimulate 5ar activity.

However, prolonged elevation of IGF-1 leads to physical signs and symptoms. This is well documented. Especially, in people that take IGF-1 as a supplement or people that suddenly have their level of IGF-1 altered.

Indeed, and one of those physical signs and symptoms is prostate cancer which again is linke to male pattern baldness (I have found even more studies since the last time you chose to dispute this).

There is no such thing as a "freebie" in modern medicine. Everyone pays and everyone is held accountable for the actions of everyone else in the hospital. It's a sign of a well-trained moral barometer within the system.
.

Thats strange because i was fairly certain doctors got plenty of freebies from drug companies when attending conferences and the like.

IGF-1 stimulates 5AR activity, but only in particular tissues..

You have no viable proof that it does not do so in the scalp. In fact, odds are, it DOES do so in the scalp.

Unfortunately, an increase in IGF-1 is associated with vertex balding, but it's also associated with a good response to all of our current hair loss drugs approved by the FDA for use...

I can see how this would be so, given that it is pro-growth. Finisteride takes away the deleterious effects of DHT so you're left with only growth.

This however would not be the case in natural circumstances - indeed, DHT would rise alongside plasma levels of IGF-1.

You must remember IgF-1 is the one of the most ANABOLIC of hormones.

Minoxidil, finasteride, and even dutasteride all increase IGF-1 levels.
...

Are you aware of the mechanism by which they do this?

However, I only found the increase in IGF-1 associated with vertex balding in the studies you posted and those levels only give plasma and not scalp IGF-1 levels....

You're missing the point. 95% of IGF-1 is distributed to tissues via plasma. This includes the scalp.

No other study gives the plasma values.....

Which studies do you speak of?

Instead, they only demonstrate a clear increase in IGF-1 RNA and protein production, which is what the studies you posted should have done. Doing an experiment that shows and increase in 5AR RNA associated with incremental challenges of IGF-1 would be the perfect experiment. However, the samples would have to be taken from different parts of the scalp......

I think the studies I posted were adequate. I believe they could be improved upon however, and as far as I'm aware the Chinese begun just such a study last year.

If the scalp levels are the same whether you have vertex balding or you are medicated, then we know that the increase is actually due to the hair follicle trying to upregulate 5AR in response to a decrease in downstream signals and DHT binding due to drug/enzyme and drug/downstream mediator interactions. ......

Don't get too far ahead of yourself...this is mere theory you speak of.

Then, why are you here? Are you trying to sell something or are you just bored?

I was shedding hair. Mercifully, it appears to have stopped. I am not trying to sell anything. And yes, I have some free time so I guess I am bored and I find this stuff interesting.

 

[DammitLetMeIn]

So higher igf-1 is found in the scalp vertex?

No, higher IGF-1 is found in blood where there is balding of scalp vertex. By implication I and others have deduced that it is also higher in scalp tissue.

 

[DammitLetMeIn]

However, prolonged elevation of IGF-1 leads to physical signs and symptoms. This is well documented. Especially, in people that take IGF-1 as a supplement or people that suddenly have their level of IGF-1 altered.

I don't think he grasps the full effects of IGF-1 on the body. Because if this were the magic cause we would all show "other" symptoms related to the elevated levels of this.

Gigantism, prostate cancer, increased muscle mass, sexual function, organ function, the list goes on .....

Some of those signs and symptoms which you mention ARE associated with vertex balding.

 

[SkylineGTR]

they are associated with alot of other things also ... for it to be concrete it has to be every person every time which isn't true.

Like your all type 1 diabetics shouldn't have male pattern baldness theory. If it isn't every person every time it isn't plausible.

We ALL can't be exceptions to the rule.

 

[Guest]

my dad has type I. he is NW5.

 

[SkylineGTR]

if IGF-1 was the problem they would of already known as they extensive cancer tests with it and something would of linked it.

IGF-1 plays a much larger role in the body as a whole. Any fluctuation in it to where it would have any effect on your body would have noticeable results.

If it were concentrated in one area's tissues we would also have tumors all over that area as it promotes that kind of growth.

http://www.mindfully.org/Health/IGF-1-C ... 7oct01.htm

http://www.cancerindex.org/geneweb/IGF1.htm

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/20 ... 080308.htm

 

[SkylineGTR]

man i should be a body builder then if i have elevated levels of IGF-1

http://blogcritics.org/archives/2006/05/25/161255.php

 

[SkylineGTR]

http://jcem.endojournals.org/cgi/conten ... type=HWCIT

Heres a study that can say hormones regulate it.

 

[DammitLetMeIn]

they are associated with alot of other things also ... for it to be concrete it has to be every person every time which isn't true.

I don't think it has to be concrete for every person every time. A vast majority of cases would suffice.

Like your all type 1 diabetics shouldn't have male pattern baldness theory. If it isn't every person every time it isn't plausible.

That wasn't my theory. It was something Doctor suggested about shbg. I now believe it to be a false theory as there are too many other co-factors involved.

We ALL can't be exceptions to the rule.

I agree. there has to be a significant correlation.

if IGF-1 was the problem they would of already known as they extensive cancer tests with it and something would of linked it.

Not necessarily given that only 40% of men suffer from male pattern baldness . Most medics dont even pay attention to baldness, believing it to be genetic. (ask Doctor)

IGF-1 plays a much larger role in the body as a whole. Any fluctuation in it to where it would have any effect on your body would have noticeable results..

And it does have noticeable results, i.e. hair loss amongst others.

If it were concentrated in one area's tissues we would also have tumors all over that area as it promotes that kind of growth.

This is completely false.

IGF-1 stimulates 5 alpha reductase to cause growth of a beard
IGF-1 stimulates 5 alpha reductase to cause grow of hair in human scrotal skin.
IGF-1 stimulates 5 alpha resuctase to cause acne.
IGF-1 enlarges sebaceous glands.
An IGF-1 expert says it is highly likely that it causes baldness.

You telling me IGF-1 doesn't do the exact same thing in the scalp?

 

[MacAttack]

DLM...simple then...its either put up or shut up...take a look @ http://www.johnstonefitness.com... make a site similar to that...but ur goal will be regrowing hair rather then building muscle...make a full diet that we can follow...and take weekly pics...if you do this and I see regrowth I WILL PERSONALLY GIVE YOU $5000 IN CASH if i see significant regrowth. Once again, put up or shut up.

 

[docj077]

my dad has type I. he is NW5.

I like how JayMan's little addition was ignored by the thread creator. JayMan's father is a doctor and it is very likely that his insulin and blood sugar levels are kept under control. And yet, he's a NW5.

 

[docj077]

Also, it's not the increase in IGF-1 that causes prostate cancer. It's gene polymorphisms in IGF-1 and CYP19 that are associated with worse prostate cancer outcomes. Specifically, gene repeats. Over 18 CA repeats in IGF-1 and over seven TTTA repeats in CYP19.

The severity of metastatic prostate cancer is based upon intrinsic genetic factors within the individual. An increase in IGF-1 has nothing to do with it. It's the response due to a genetically defective IGF-1 and CYP19 molecules that determines the prognosis. Especially, in metastatic prostate cancer.

Also, the chance of developing prostate cancer is not necessarily increased by an increase in IGF-1 (the chance is actually pretty low according to the very study that the thread creator posted with many researchers claiming no significant correlation). Once again genetics trump anything else here as the increased risk is associated with the individual not carrying two copies of the IGF-1R (AGG) 7 allele.



For those that are curious, here is a recent study demonstrating how to raise or lower IGF-1 levels.


: Public Health Nutr. 2007 Jan;10(1):97-105. Links
Impact of nutrients on insulin-like growth factor-I, insulin-like growth factor binding protein-3 and their ratio in African American and white males.McGreevy KM, Hoel BD, Lipsitz SR, Hoel DG.
Department of Biostatistics, Bioinformatics, and Epidemiology, Medical University of South Carolina, Charleston, SC, USA. katemcgreevy@comcast.net

OBJECTIVE: Higher levels of insulin-like growth factor-I (IGF-I) and lower levels of IGF binding protein-3 (IGFBP-3) have been associated with an increased risk of prostate cancer. Nutrition is known to partially regulate IGF levels and it is possible that nutritional factors mediate the impact of IGF levels on prostate cancer risk. Design: A cross-sectional analysis of the impact of nutritional factors measured by a dietary questionnaire on plasma levels of IGF-I, IGFBP-3 and their molar ratio. Multiple linear regression analysis was used to test for effects of nutrients on IGF levels. SETTING: Prostate cancer screening at the Hollings Cancer Center in Charleston, South Carolina. SUBJECTS: Ninety-five African American and 138 white males aged 33-83 years attending the screening. RESULTS: In whites, intakes of total, saturated and monounsaturated fats were positively associated with an increase in the molar ratio, while there was no association in African Americans. In African Americans, we found that increasing intake of calcium and dairy servings was positively associated with IGF-I levels. Increased vegetable intake was positively associated with IGFBP-3 in African Americans, while there was no effect in whites. A higher percentage of alcohol in the total diet was significantly associated with a decrease in the molar ratio and an increase in IGFBP-3 in both groups. CONCLUSIONS: Our results confirm previous findings of nutritional determinants of IGF levels. Additionally, we found the impact of several nutrients on IGF levels to be different in whites and African Americans, which warrants further investigation.


So, IGF-1 can be decreased in particular ways in certain populations through diet. However, it may lower risk somewhat, but the underlying cause is a genetic defect, so the cause and the prognosis is still based upon inherited abnormalities. This holds true for male pattern baldness as well as the underlying defect is a triplet repeat mutation in the androgen receptor gene on the x chromosome.

So, once again, you can try to influence the outcome through diet, but it will be a lifelong battle.

Medications FTW on this one as they will lower the endogenous levels of DHT to make a difference. Also, high IGF-1 levels in a human being bring obvious physical signs and symptoms. Research these signs and symptoms if you have vertex baldness and perhaps see a doctor if you're concerned.

 

[DammitLetMeIn]

DLM...simple then...its either put up or shut up...take a look @ http://www.johnstonefitness.com... make a site similar to that...but ur goal will be regrowing hair rather then building muscle...make a full diet that we can follow...and take weekly pics...if you do this and I see regrowth I WILL PERSONALLY GIVE YOU $5000 IN CASH if i see significant regrowth. Once again, put up or shut up.

Dude, I don't want your money. I'm discussing the idea that hair loss is down to an increase in plasma IGF-1.

If you want to understand it, don't take my word for it, do a little research online. You might be surprized at what you find...

I like how JayMan's little addition was ignored by the thread creator. JayMan's father is a doctor and it is very likely that his insulin and blood sugar levels are kept under control. And yet, he's a NW5.

I know not of Jayman's father's health. However, I made the assertion regarding the relevance of SHBG (altho I still believe its somewhat relevant) prior to learning about the intricacies of IGF-1.

 

[DammitLetMeIn]

Also, it's not the increase in IGF-1 that causes prostate cancer. .

Disagree.

It's gene polymorphisms in IGF-1 and CYP19 that are associated with worse prostate cancer outcomes..

Yes, they may be associated with worse prostate cancer outcomes. However, it is entirely possible that with a good anti-prostate cancer diet such as that suggested by Dr. Michael Colgan (look it up) that prostate cancer will never eventuate.

Moreover, most specialists say EVERY man will contract prostate cancer should he live long enough.

The severity of metastatic prostate cancer is based upon intrinsic genetic factors within the individual.

Obviously someone strongly predisposed who actually has prostate cancer is more likely to have metastasis. So?

An increase in IGF-1 has nothing to do with it. .

False. Look online.

It's the response due to a genetically defective IGF-1 and CYP19 molecules that determines the prognosis. Especially, in metastatic prostate cancer..

It may well determine the medical prognosis once a patient HAS prostate cancer, however, prior to acquiring prostate cancer both IGF-1 and diet have been shown as major determinants

Also, the chance of developing prostate cancer is not necessarily increased by an increase in IGF-1..

Untrue. It is a specified risk factor second only to 'age'.

Once again genetics trump anything else here as the increased risk is associated with the individual not carrying two copies of the IGF-1R (AGG) 7 allele. ..

Increased risk, yes. Absolute determinant, no.

For those that are curious, here is a recent study demonstrating how to raise or lower IGF-1 levels. ..

You provide 1 study that actually agrees with what I said. You know how many studies I can provide on this issue?

So, IGF-1 can be decreased in particular ways in certain populations through diet. However, it may lower risk somewhat, but the underlying cause is a genetic defect,..

Translated to a hair loss situation: 'you may keep your hair until you're 50 but eventually you'll succumb to the gene'

I think most people would be happy enough to keep their hair for a long time.

So, once again, you can try to influence the outcome through diet, but it will be a lifelong battle.,..

Not if you're keeping your free IGF-1 at the right levels.

Medications FTW on this one as they will lower the endogenous levels of DHT to make a difference..,..

I've never said medications didn't work - not once. Of course lowering DHT is the way to go but medications don't address the underlying cause of DHT, that is, what is elevating IGF-1. Until you address that you're going to be stuck on medications, moreover, you'll be dealing with side-effects and be potentially damaging your body.

Also, high IGF-1 levels in a human being bring obvious physical signs and symptoms.

There are MANY MANY signs and symptoms of increased IGF-1, a lot of which may simply be passed off as living, e.g. being fat.

Research these signs and symptoms if you have vertex baldness and perhaps see a doctor if you're concerned.

Lol @ you trying to isolate 'vertex baldness' as if it is an isolated symptom or caused by something else.

Listen, if a dude is balding its because he has high DHT and if its vertex its male pattern baldness.

As I've said before:

IGF-1 stimulates 5 alpha reductase to cause growth of a beard
IGF-1 stimulates 5 alpha reductase to cause grow of hair in human scrotal skin.
IGF-1 stimulates 5 alpha resuctase to cause acne.
IGF-1 enlarges sebaceous glands.
An IGF-1 expert says it is highly likely that it causes baldness.

You telling me IGF-1 doesn't do the exact same thing in the scalp?

 

[Pondle]

As I've said before:

IGF-1 stimulates 5 alpha reductase to cause growth of a beard
IGF-1 stimulates 5 alpha reductase to cause grow of hair in human scrotal skin.
IGF-1 stimulates 5 alpha resuctase to cause acne.
IGF-1 enlarges sebaceous glands.
An IGF-1 expert says it is highly likely that it causes baldness.

So if I could sum up your argument succinctly, you think that an appropriate diet could downregulate IGF-1 sufficiently to compensate for a genetic propensity towards baldness (more 5AR, more androgen receptors)?

But wouldn't that downregulation have all kinds of other negative consequences for the body? And how could diet alone achieve this given the other influences on IGF-1 levels?

Apologies to all if this has been covered in the numerous arguments before. Haven't been watching the thread religiously.

 

[docj077]

Also, it's not the increase in IGF-1 that causes prostate cancer. .

Disagree.

I don't. You must genetically predisposed to prostate cancer in order to develop the disease. Whether it be through an inherited mutation or a spontaneous mutation.

It's gene polymorphisms in IGF-1 and CYP19 that are associated with worse prostate cancer outcomes..

Yes, they may be associated with worse prostate cancer outcomes. However, it is entirely possible that with a good anti-prostate cancer diet such as that suggested by Dr. Michael Colgan (look it up) that prostate cancer will never eventuate.

Moreover, most specialists say EVERY man will contract prostate cancer should he live long enough.

No, not every specialist says that. Every specialist that does pedigrees and examines genetic diseases acknowledges that prostate cancer (like all cancer) has an increased chance of developing if you have a first degree relative with the disease.

The severity of metastatic prostate cancer is based upon intrinsic genetic factors within the individual.

Obviously someone strongly predisposed who actually has prostate cancer is more likely to have metastasis. So?

Intrinsic genetic abnormalities are the cornerstone of modern cancer research. Don't belittle the work of thousands with your asshat theories.

An increase in IGF-1 has nothing to do with it. .

False. Look online.

True. Look online. An increase in prostate cancer risk is associated with increased IGF-1, but only in susceptible individuals.

It's the response due to a genetically defective IGF-1 and CYP19 molecules that determines the prognosis. Especially, in metastatic prostate cancer..

It may well determine the medical prognosis once a patient HAS prostate cancer, however, prior to acquiring prostate cancer both IGF-1 and diet have been shown as major determinants

No, the major determinants are age, family history, and race. It's the same way for all cancers.

Also, the chance of developing prostate cancer is not necessarily increased by an increase in IGF-1..

Untrue. It is a specified risk factor second only to 'age'.

No, IGF-1 is not a main factor. Genetic predisposition through family history is the number two determinant.

Once again genetics trump anything else here as the increased risk is associated with the individual not carrying two copies of the IGF-1R (AGG) 7 allele. ..

Increased risk, yes. Absolute determinant, no.

So, now you turn the increased risk argument against me. You have two papers that you posted that say there is no clinical or scientific significance between elevated IGF-1 and prostate cancer. I even pointed them out to you and their results even justify their conclusions. Yet, somehow you think you're above the interpretations of the individuals that performed the studies. You need to accept the fact that you are in over your head on this one.

For those that are curious, here is a recent study demonstrating how to raise or lower IGF-1 levels. ..

You provide 1 study that actually agrees with what I said. You know how many studies I can provide on this issue?

Raising or lowering IGF-1 through diet through studies I post doesn't mean that I agree with you at all. You make things too simple with your posts when the human body is far more complicated that your simple mind can comprehend. You say "cut the fats." Yet, that will have no impact on IGF-1 levels in an African American. They have to cut the dairy. You make yourself look stupid and your opinion look foolish when you attempt to take the complexities of modern medicine and turn them into your own personal scientific circus. I don't trust you and I don't trust your conclusions, because every study that you post either has a study that completely contradicts it or your conclusions contradict the conclusions of the researchers performing the study.

So, IGF-1 can be decreased in particular ways in certain populations through diet. However, it may lower risk somewhat, but the underlying cause is a genetic defect,..

Translated to a hair loss situation: 'you may keep your hair until you're 50 but eventually you'll succumb to the gene'

I think most people would be happy enough to keep their hair for a long time.

No. That's oversimplification (something you're good at) and completely incorrect.

So, once again, you can try to influence the outcome through diet, but it will be a lifelong battle.,..

Not if you're keeping your free IGF-1 at the right levels.

You have no proof of what the correct levels are for a male with male pattern baldness, nor do you have proof that lowering these levels will prevent or reverse male pattern baldness. You also have no proof that shows that men with a defective androgen receptor and low IGF-1 levels have no hair loss. You MUST prove all of these. It's your theory and I'm challenging it.

Medications FTW on this one as they will lower the endogenous levels of DHT to make a difference..,..

I've never said medications didn't work - not once. Of course lowering DHT is the way to go but medications don't address the underlying cause of DHT, that is, what is elevating IGF-1. Until you address that you're going to be stuck on medications, moreover, you'll be dealing with side-effects and be potentially damaging your body.

It doesn't matter what you do with IGF-1. High IGF-1 gives a person signs and symptoms of a disease process. They are very evident. Stopping DHT at the level of the enzyme or the receptor prevents all downstream effects regardless of any effect IGF-1 has in tissue. You still don't have proof that lowering IGF-1 is beneficial in male pattern baldness, nor do you have proof that it's even safe.

Also, high IGF-1 levels in a human being bring obvious physical signs and symptoms.

There are MANY MANY signs and symptoms of increased IGF-1, a lot of which may simply be passed off as living, e.g. being fat.

Oversimplification. Non-sequitur.

Research these signs and symptoms if you have vertex baldness and perhaps see a doctor if you're concerned.

Lol @ you trying to isolate 'vertex baldness' as if it is an isolated symptom or caused by something else.

Listen, if a dude is balding its because he has high DHT and if its vertex its male pattern baldness.

As I've said before:

IGF-1 stimulates 5 alpha reductase to cause growth of a beard
IGF-1 stimulates 5 alpha reductase to cause grow of hair in human scrotal skin.
IGF-1 stimulates 5 alpha resuctase to cause acne.
IGF-1 enlarges sebaceous glands.
An IGF-1 expert says it is highly likely that it causes baldness.

You telling me IGF-1 doesn't do the exact same thing in the scalp?

This is something that you have no proof of. Testosterone and estrogen directly upregulate 5AR function and increase IGF-1 concentrations. You have no proof that IGF-1 increases 5AR function in any way as you don't have the peer-reviewed proof that increased IGF-1 concentrations cause an increase in intracellular signalling and 5AR gene transcription. Your studies don't demonstrate what the hormone levels are with the increase in IGF-1. For all we know, what's actually happening is hormonal upregulation of 5AR function with the IGF-1 increase simply being an extra finding due to hormonally mediated influences. You have no proof otherwise.

 

[SkylineGTR]

yeah i don't think he reads any of the linked studies anyone else posts that aren't abstracts.

IGF-1 as it relates to evolution
http://jcem.endojournals.org/cgi/conten ... type=HWCIT

Prostate cancer and IGF-1
http://jcem.endojournals.org/cgi/conten ... type=HWCIT

IGF-1 declines with age
http://jcem.endojournals.org/cgi/conten ... type=HWCIT

Unlike just the abstracts this shows the full studies.. please read carefully. This isn't pubmed its the journal of clinical endocrinology. And only recent studies I.E. 2000+ not ages in the past.

 

[DammitLetMeIn]

[
I don't. You must genetically predisposed to prostate cancer in order to develop the disease. Whether it be through an inherited mutation or a spontaneous mutation...

Kind of makes a mockery of what you intended to convey by 'genetically predisposed'....

No, not every specialist says that.

Look, I know of some of THE top specialists. and this is their contention.

Every specialist that does pedigrees and examines genetic diseases acknowledges that prostate cancer (like all cancer) has an increased chance of developing if you have a first degree relative with the disease.

Well, whoop de doo, we have a genius on our hands...smh

Intrinsic genetic abnormalities are the cornerstone of modern cancer research..

Modern Western Medicine research. Its all focused on a singular narrow minded and thereby limited outlook. Don't even TRY and talk to me about Western Medicine and cancer when we're BLATANTLY losing the war on cancer.

Don't belittle the work of thousands with your asshat theories.
..

How about you don't be so condescending as to label anyone with an alternative viewpoint as 'asshat'. You immediately take an 'L' when you express yourself like that. Not to say I'm surprized tho.

True. Look online. An increase in prostate cancer risk is associated with increased IGF-1, but only in susceptible individuals.

Like I said already, EVERY man will get prostate cancer if they live long enough - that means everyone is a susceptible individual. Thereby, increased IGF-1 is a risk for every male for acquriing prostate cancer or at very least some malady of the prostate.

No, the major determinants are age, family history, and race. It's the same way for all cancers...

I was referring to outside of those determinants.

No, IGF-1 is not a main factor. Genetic predisposition through family history is the number two determinant. ..

It is a MAIN risk factor, I even produced a paper earlier in the thread to show this. Stop skirting around the facts by trying to twist them in an attempt wot in an argument. As someone with male pattern baldness I'd have thought you would be interested in truth, not petty squabbles.

So, now you turn the increased risk argument against me. ..

I was merely pointing out facts. In my view this is not an 'argument' - at least not on my behalf.

You have two papers that you posted that say there is no clinical or scientific significance between elevated IGF-1 and prostate cancer. ..

You read what you wanted to read out of them. Their 'discussions' and 'conclusions' did not echo your sentiments. They beleive there is a correlation.

Besides I can produce many more studies.

I even pointed them out to you and their results even justify their conclusions...

They SAID there IS a correlation. All you did was take out a specific piece of the studies which agreed with you. Besides there are many more studies which show a correlation.

Yet, somehow you think you're above the interpretations of the individuals that performed the studies.

IT was THEIR interpretations I repeated. You took their statistics and drew your own conclusions.

You need to accept the fact that you are in over your head on this one.
.

Who are you to tell me I'm in over my head? Do you have a cure for male pattern baldness? I didn't think so. From your other posts I'm aware that you're not even a Doctor yet you have 'Doctor' in your screen name. You're just a medical student yet you seem to think you have more knowledge than two M.D. who believe that IGF-1 plays a significant role in male pattern baldness.

You think I'm in over my head? At least I'm not downtalking two people more advanced in my own profession.

Raising or lowering IGF-1 through diet through studies I post doesn't mean that I agree with you at all.

I wouldn't expect any less from you based on your previous posts.

You make things too simple with your posts when the human body is far more complicated

You individualise things and over-complicate things even where facts are staring you in the face. I simply repeat what I've read in studies and from experts and MD's. You think you're above their interpretations.

that your simple mind can comprehend.

Again, an insult from you. I cannot say I'm surprised as this appears to be your level.

You say "cut the fats.".

YOu'd have to go back 57pages and many days of research before you'd hear me say that. My reasoning and knowledge of male pattern baldness has prgressed from that point.

Your ability to have an educated conversation apparently hasn't.

Yet, that will have no impact on IGF-1 levels in an African American. They have to cut the dairy..".

You have already heard me speak of IGF-1 in dairy in this thread, and btw for the record, dairy is full of fat.

You make yourself look stupid and your opinion look foolish when you attempt to take the complexities of modern medicine and turn them into your own personal scientific circus.

In fact it is you who looks foolish for being unable to see whats in front of you preferring to pick minor flaws than to listen to reason. Even when a doctor points it out you refuse to take heed.

You speak of modern medicine, yet if you look at their record on male pattern baldness, its pretty horrendous. You can keep banging your head against a brick wall if you like.

I don't trust you and I don't trust your conclusions.

And I don't trust you to be a free thinker and separate yourself from your completely indoctrinated outlook. Nor, do I trust your character in light on your insistence at throwing insults.

, because every study that you post either has a study that completely contradicts it.

This is false. Completely false.

or your conclusions contradict the conclusions of the researchers performing the study..

Again, this offering is completely false.

No. That's oversimplification (something you're good at) and completely incorrect.

Its not incorrect.

You have no proof of what the correct levels are for a male with male pattern baldness

My contention is that a male wouldn't HAVE male pattern baldness if his levels were correct. As we've already seen IGF-1 levels are ELEVATED in males with male pattern baldness, and acne and prostate cancer.

nor do you have proof that lowering these levels will prevent or reverse male pattern baldness.

And you have no proof that it won't. Moreover, I am prepared to explore the idea by looking at ALL the information and looking at corresponding afflictions such as PCOS, acne, prostate cancer etc

You seem to want to throw the idea out of the window before its even considered even where there is evidence to support it. YOu'll get nowhere being so dismissive.

You also have no proof that shows that men with a defective androgen receptor and low IGF-1 levels have no hair loss.

Well if they have 'LOW' IGF-1 levels then they are likely to have hairloss. I would advocate NORMAL levels.

You MUST prove all of these. .

All I need to prove is a correlation between elevated IGF-1 and hair loss on a consistent basis. Enough so that downregulating IGF-1 is a good idea for men with male pattern baldness.

It's your theory and I'm challenging it. .

Once again, its NOT my theory. Many people including M.D.'s have already advanced the theory with even greater science than I have provided.

It doesn't matter what you do with IGF-1. .

This is presumptious and in my view inaccurate.

High IGF-1 gives a person signs and symptoms of a disease process. They are very evident. .

Elevated IGF-1 ocurs in bodybuilders. They have symptoms of disease?

Stopping DHT at the level of the enzyme or the receptor prevents all downstream effects regardless of any effect IGF-1 has in tissue. .

I never disputed this.

You still don't have proof that lowering IGF-1 is beneficial in male pattern baldness, nor do you have proof that it's even safe..

I have proof that elevated IGF-1 is associated with male pattern baldness. As for lowering IGF-1 levels, it is something I have raised for discussion and something suggested to be explored. I'm not saying for everyone to go out and lower their IGF-1 levels, I'm simply discussin the link with male pattern baldness.

Oversimplification. Non-sequitur. .

How about i rephrase it for you. 'Oversimplification, in my opinon.' You are not the ultimate arbiter of the human body, so don't act like it.

This is something that you have no proof of..

All the evidence is mounting up. All it lacks is one specific study. I didn't say it was 110% true, again its something I put out for discussion with an open mind - not to be dismissed by a closed one such as yours.

You have no proof that IGF-1 increases 5AR function in any way as you don't have the peer-reviewed.

I have studies which show that it does in areas DHT sensitive area apart from the scalp

Your studies don't demonstrate what the hormone levels are with the increase in IGF-1. For all we know, what's actually happening is hormonal upregulation of 5AR function with the IGF-1 increase simply being an extra finding due to hormonally mediated influences. You have no proof otherwise.

I welcome such points, but that still doesn't dismiss my overall contention entirely.

But you know, everything is always so negative with you. The glass is always half-empty even when it is 3/4 full. You can't seem to look past current medical consenus. You're mentally trapped.