Topical finasteride microdosing as additional treatment?

[Desmond_84]

Here's what went down with me

https://www.b a l dtruthtalk.com/threads/12698-My-Finasteride-Story-so-far...

just get rid of the spaces. Hope it helps

 

[hilbert]

Here's what went down with me

https://www.b a l dtruthtalk.com/threads/12698-My-Finasteride-Story-so-far...

just get rid of the spaces. Hope it helps

thanks a lot for pointing; interesting story.
and the proof of my long-term admiration for Mazzarella's microdoses.
Indeed, I'm still going on with CB to see how far I can go, and how well. But I've a microdose finasteride lotion (0,02%, to be used in max 0,5ml, i.e. 0,1 mg of finasteride on my head). Sitting there, just in case

btw, there was an interesting question (by "Microdoser") there: why 0,25 3 times per week, instead of a lower dose (e.g. 0,05mg) ED?

 

[deniak]

Small update here:
https://www.gourmetstylewellness.com/intera...k-non-aggresive-male-pattern-baldness.106633/

 

[MrV88]

Has anyone ever tried topical dutasteride + minoxidil mix instead of minoxidil+finasteride?

Would it be worse or better?

 

[Badbald]

Why arnt more people talking about Alfatradiol?

It seems like an extremely plausible way of doing a less potent version of finasteride without the side, im super confused why its hasnt be bought up more.

 

[hairfertilizer]

Why arnt more people talking about Alfatradiol?

Because it's basically estrogen cream, and I can't find any reputable seller who sells the stuff and it's $80 for 200ml on ebay.

 

[couldntthinkofaname]

-

 

[couldntthinkofaname]

Yes there are studies on topical. The research indicates that only 25% goes systemic compared to 70%. I was just reading one here.
The most important parts.

Go to minoxidilmax website, I think they have some links

Abbreviation: J Eur Acad Dermatol Venereol
Imprint Name(s):
Publication: Oxford : Wiley-Blackwell
Original Publication: Amsterdam ; New York : Elsevier Science Publishers, c1992-
Abstract:
Background: The synergism of combined use between oral finasteride and topical minoxidil has been established in treating androgenetic alopecia among men. However, the concern regarding adverse effects of finasteride use has been rising.
Objective: To compare the efficacy and safety of topical solution of 0.25% finasteride admixed with 3% minoxidil versus 3% minoxidil solution in men with androgenetic alopecia.
Methods: Forty men aged 18 to 60 years with androgenetic alopecia were randomized to 24 weeks of treatment with a finasteride/minoxidil or minoxidil solution twice daily. Primary efficacy endpoint was the change from baseline in hair density and hair diameter at week 24. Secondary endpoints included global photographic assessment by treatment-blinded investigators and subjects. Changes in plasma dihydrotestosterone levels and adverse events were recorded.
Results: At week 24, the combined solution of finasteride and minoxidil was significantly superior to minoxidil alone in improvements of hair density, hair diameter and global photographic assessment (all P < 0.05). About 90% of patients treated with the combined solution experienced moderate to marked improvement. The combined solution also had minimal effect on plasma dihydrotestosterone levels, approximately 5% reduction. There were also no systemic adverse events reported by patients in both groups.
Conclusion: Treatment with topical solution of 0.25% finasteride admixed with 3% minoxidil was significantly superior to 3% minoxidil solution for promoting hair growth in male androgenetic alopecia, and well tolerated. This article is protected by copyright. All rights reserved.
(This article is protected by copyright. All rights reserved.)
Contributed Indexing:
Keywords: androgenetic alopecia; finasteride; male pattern hair loss; topical finasteride; topical minoxidil
Entry Date(s):
Date Created: 20180705 Latest Revision: 20180704
Update Code:
20180705
DOI:
10.1111/jdv.15171

Materials and Methods

Initial dosing studies were designed to establish the most effective topical concentration of finasteride with respect to serum DHT 5mg Proscar tablets were crushed to prepare the appropriate concentration suitable for topical dosing studies.

Males with genetic hair loss were selected on a named patient basis, and all gave their informed consent. Following a baseline blood test and medical examination, hair variables were assessed with the Unit Area Trichogram (a method with proven reproducibility) basely and, from the same sites, 12 months later. All blood tests were performed before 11 am following a 12 hr fast, with follow-up blood tests and medical examinations after 1, 4, and 12 months of therapy.

Results
Hormonal changes during dosing studies

The dosing study data are presented in Table 1 and Table 2. The results show that a twice daily application of 0.05% finasteride solution (2 x 2 ml) significantly lowers the serum DHT concentration, with only a marginal increase in DHT suppression being observed when the concentration was increased from 0.05% to 0.075% (data not presented).

Table 1.
Dosing data (mean, n=2) for topical 0.01% finasteride (2 x 2 ml daily) over a four week duration.

........................................ Week 0 ...... Week 1 ............. Week 4 ..... % Change
Testosterone (nmol/L) ..... 25.0 ........... 31.0 .................. 25.0 ............. 0%
DHT (nmol/L) ..................... 2.9 ............. 1.7 .................... 1.7 ............. -31%

Table 2.
Dosing data (mean +/- sd, n=9) for topical 0.05% finasteride (2 x 2 ml daily) over a 4 week duration

........................................ Week 0 ...... Week 4 ....... % Change ........ (paired t-test)
Testosterone (nmol/L) ...... 20.2 ......... 19.4 ............... -4% ................ NS
DHT (nmol/L) ..................... 1.8 ........... 1.1 ................ -39% ............... p<0.003

Hormonal and hair changes during topical 0.05% finasteride therapy
(Table 3)

During the treatment period significant suppression of the serum DHT was achieved in all individuals, with each remaining below the lower limit of normal (1.3 to 2.5 nmol/L) throughout treatment. In addition, no significant reduction in circulating serum testosterone or oestradiol concentration was found. The mean values obtained for total hair density (hair per cm^2) and non-vellus hair density are also presented. A vellus hair was defined as a hair less than or equal to 40 um in diameter, less than or equal to 30 mm in length.

Table 3.
Mean hair densities and hormonal values from 5 subjects treated with topical 0.05% finasteride for 12 months

Time (months) ........................ 0 ................. 12 ....... Significance ...... Normal Range
Total hair per cm^2 .............. 256 ............. 248 ............ NS ................ (256 - 359)
Non-vellus hair per cm^2 ..... 174 ............. 158 ............ NS ................ (232 - 325)
Testosterone (nmol/L) .......... 15.0 ............ 14.0 ........... NS ............... (10.0 - 35.0)
DHT (nmol/L) ......................... 1.42 ............ 0.85 ......... p<0.01 ........... (1.3 - 2.5)

[Objective: The effects on scalp and serum dihydrotestosterone (DHT) of different doses of a novel topical solution of 0.25% finasteride (P-3074), a type 2 5α-reductase, were investigated in men with androgenetic alopecia. Methods: Two randomized, parallel-group studies were conducted. Study I: 18 men received 1 mL (2.275 mg) P-3074, applied to the scalp once a day (o.d.) or twice a day (b.i.d), or 1 mg oral tablet o.d. for 1 week. Study II: 32 men received P-3074 at the dose of 100 (0.2275 mg), 200 (0.455 mg), 300 (0.6285 mg), or 400 (0.91 mg) μL or the vehicle o.d. for 1 week. Scalp and serum DHT and serum testosterone were evaluated at baseline and treatment end. Results: Change from baseline in scalp DHT was -70% for P-3074 o.d. and approx. -50% for P-3074 b.i.d. and the tablet. Serum DHT decreased by 60 - 70%. The doses of 100 and 200 μL P-3074 resulted in a -47/-52% scalp DHT reduction, similar to the 300 and 400 μL doses (i.e., -37/-54%). A -5.6% inhibition was observed for the vehicle. Serum DHT was reduced by only -24/-26% with 100 and 200 μL P-3074 and by -44/-48% with 300 and 400 μL P-3074. No relevant changes occurred for serum testosterone. Conclusions: The novel finasteride 0.25% solution applied o.d. at the doses of 100 and 200 μL results in an appropriate inhibition of scalp DHT potentially minimizing the untoward sexual side-effects linked to a systemic DHT reduction.



https://www.researchgate.net/public...one_in_healthy_men_with_androgenetic_alopecia/QUOTE]

 

[Willis 84]

Hi guys!


Lately I digged into topic of topical finasteride. My stance about finasteride is straightforward – I dont want to wipe out one of most potent male hormones from my body; beside common sense, there is growing evidence than finasteride is not as safe as advertised. However Im not hypocrite and I know that finasteride and dutasteride are most effective things that we have today, and probably we wont see anything better in our lifteime (and almost certain in lifetime of our remaining hair follicles).
For people who use finasteride or dutasteride with success, this thread will be simply boring, so you can skip it. My english is poor, so I post only basics without to much speculations. Im also not scientist so I might be wrong, feel free to chime in and correct / add some insights


The question I asked myself is: can I use finasteride as powerful part of hairloss therapy without unwanted side effects?


Few facts:


1) Oral microdosing:


Thanks to Drake study we know few important things:


Dose as small as 0,01 mg is comparable to placebo both in DHT inhibition and hair count.


Dose as small as 0,05 mg blocks DHT in scalp almost like 1 mg dose, but reduce little less DHT in body (~50%).


Dose as smal as 0,2 mg have therapeutic effect, unfortunately after enough applications reduce systemic DHT just like 1 mg and 5 mg dose (60-70%).


View attachment 56523


Conclusion – unfortunately I havent found information about hair count with dosages ranging from 0.02 mg-0.04 mg. But I assume that if you want to avoid side effects (loss of serum DHT) and same time save your hairs, oral microdosing is useless. With microdosing >0.05 mg soon or later serum DHT will be inhibited to "max" point (50-70% = possible sides)


2) Topical microdosing:


We got recent weak studies made by Polichem.


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25074865


Dose as huge as 2,2 mg finasteride in 1 ml of P-3074 vehicle reduced DHT in body 20% after 1 day, while 7 days later reduction was identical to 1mg pill.


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26636418


To avoid systemic effects, they tried microdosing with ED application for 7 days:


- 0,1 ml (0,22 mg finasteride) and 0,2 ml (0,45 mg) reduced skin DHT -47/-52% (almost same values as 0,2 mg oral which was proved as effective treatment), serum reduction was "only" -24/-26%
- 0,3 ml (0,62 mg) 0,4 ml (0,91 mg) reduced skin DHT -37/-54%, serum -44/-48%


0,1 ml and 0,2 ml looks quite good, but studies was short term and unfortunately... it matters a lot.


I encourage everybody to read log of user joestes from HLH. Years before Polichem he tried similiar treatment. Basically he tried to copy Mazzarella study (supposedly no systemic effects) by using 0,066 mg finasteride on scalp dailly (2 mg finasteride solved in 60ml of minoxidil, used 2 ml ED). After 21 days he checked his DHT levels and found that serum levels was reduced just like with pill. He was shocked and frustrated.


But if we look at chart from Gormley study its becoming obvious what happened:


View attachment 56524


White circle is dose of 0,04 mg administered orally. After one dosage DHT changed slightly, after 8 days of constant use we have 50% serum reduction and after 14 days we have DHT almost wiped out from body just like with "normal" oral dose.


I may be wrong, but this is my broscientist understanding: no matter if we swallow pill or put topical, we have point of saturation in different organs. For example: after few topical dosages finasteride is blocking reductase in scalp to some extent (about 60-70% inhibition, look at Drake graph or other studies). Less work with DHT in scalp means that applied finasteride is wandering through blood looking for other organs, like testicles or liver to act there. DHT rebuilds slowly (few days / weeks depending on dose and body type) so with enough small dosages we will achieve cumulated effect of one huge dose. Joestes used super small dose, but if we assume 10% of systemic absorption we have cumulation of 0,13 mg finasteride traveling through his body during 21 days of his experiment.


Conclusion – looks like topical microdosing WONT prevent systemic absorption IF we use finasteride continously for long enough time.


Knowing that, what we can do?


Last posts of Joestes thread are written by guy named defenderofcrown (love his name BTW. He came with idea of microdosing but only once every few days. He wanted to achieve max DHT suppresion in scalp, while leaving internal organs untouched.


For example, lets look at 0,2mg dose applied topically once every 5 days. Assuming 10% absorption we have 0,02mg finasteride circulating in bloodstream.


View attachment 56525


Based on graph we see above, after single oral dose of 0,04 mg serum DHT was supressed about 10-20% and backs to "status quo" after 4 days.


I havent found any research on intermittent therapy like this, but I can assume that it wont work effectively as standalone treatment, bacuse a)DHT is slowly rebuilding in scalp and b) DHT from other organs attack follicle. BUT on paper it SHOULD have some efficiancy and it may be potent addition to any reputable androgen blocker. Most of guys here are using some blocker – from light weight like keto to heavywieght like RU. Moreover, topical route might be wortha a shot, heres link to old post of bryan (kudos to dench for link) where he writes about purpose of attacking DHT not inside body but directly at follicle zone.


One of unknown is dose and interval between dosages to get max saturation in scalp, while leaving serum levels in safe zone. It might be 0,2 mg every 5 days or 0,05mg every 3 days, or 0,01mg EOD etc... Its open topic. The higher frequency the bigger risk of serum inhibition. The higher dose, the bigger risk of unwanted absorption. Im currently searching for more info, there is lot of data, not only controlled research but also single cases.


Also, knowing cumulative effect of finasteride, its obvious why topical finasteride threads are mostly fail (sides etc):


- some guys use huge doses like in Polichem first trial, so after few dosages blood serum is reduced just like with single small oral dose
- there are guys using more or less "correct" microdoses, but EVERY day. DHT rebuilds long time, so with every subsequent dosage more and more finasteride is circulating in bloodstream reducing DHT in other organs (joestes case), up to full "saturation" point.


What you guys think?


PS. For those interested, heres additional link to old but gold thread: http://www.gourmetstylewellness.com/interac...benifits-of-propecia-without-the-side-effects

I'm on finasteride 1mg a day, with 1mg a day minoxidil topical application, I have a shaved head so i use half the dosage as its plenty. It's been 4 months and I'm getting good results and still horny as f*** like always.. I think change it up if your sex drive drops off, but apart from that... chase those results

 

[couldntthinkofaname]

I'm on finasteride 1mg a day, with 1mg a day minoxidil topical application, I have a shaved head so i use half the dosage as its plenty. It's been 4 months and I'm getting good results and still horny as f*** like always.. I think change it up if your sex drive drops off, but apart from that... chase those results

can you also use 2%minoxidil instead 5%minoxidil as carrier?

 

[couldntthinkofaname]

To avoid systemic effects, they tried microdosing with ED application for 7 days:


- 0,1 ml (0,22 mg finasteride) and 0,2 ml (0,45 mg) reduced skin DHT -47/-52% (almost same values as 0,2 mg oral which was proved as effective treatment), serum reduction was "only" -24/-26%
- 0,3 ml (0,62 mg) 0,4 ml (0,91 mg) reduced skin DHT -37/-54%, serum -44/-48%

0,1 ml and 0,2 ml looks quite good, but studies was short term and unfortunately... it matters a lot.


I encourage everybody to read log of userjoestes from HLH. Years before Polichem he tried similiar treatment. Basically he tried to copy Mazzarella study (supposedly no systemic effects) by using 0,066 mgfinasteride on scalp dailly (2 mg finasteride solved in 60ml of minoxidil, used 2 ml ED). After 21 days he checked his DHT levels and found that serum levels was reduced just like with pill. He was shocked and frustrated.

anyone went the 0.1ml/0.22mg path longer than 7 days?

 

[Solidsnake]

Hi. I'm new in the forum. I wanted to tell you my case. I am 30 years old, I am a doctor and for 6 months I used finasteride 1 mg / day. Although my frontal area improved, my libido also decreased and I started with generalized anguish, so I decided to abandon the treatment. When I read the prospect, I was surprised by the fact that sexual effects are almost non-existent, as is depression. But reading post I realize that the cases are many. This must be reported throughout the world. Currently I have been without finasteride for more than a year and I regained my libido but not 100%. There are times that I have to take tadalafil. Due to the effects of this poison, I decided that in 3 weeks I will undergo a hair implant. Then I will use a 5% topical minoxidil to maintain. What is the experience we have with alfatradiol and what dose of finasteride is effective to minimize the reduction of 5-alpha reductase systemically? (How should the topical finasteride solution be prepared? In Argentina I have not found it). Thank you

 

[tomJ]

Hi. I'm new in the forum. I wanted to tell you my case. I am 30 years old, I am a doctor and for 6 months I used finasteride 1 mg / day. Although my frontal area improved, my libido also decreased and I started with generalized anguish, so I decided to abandon the treatment. When I read the prospect, I was surprised by the fact that sexual effects are almost non-existent, as is depression. But reading post I realize that the cases are many. This must be reported throughout the world. Currently I have been without finasteride for more than a year and I regained my libido but not 100%. There are times that I have to take tadalafil. Due to the effects of this poison, I decided that in 3 weeks I will undergo a capillary implant. Then I will use a 5% topical minoxidil to maintain. What is the experience we have with alfatradiol and what dose of finasteride is effective to minimize the reduction of 5-alpha reductase systemically? (How should the topical finasteride solution be prepared? In Argentina I have not found it). Thank you

Capillary implant? Please do explain what this is?

 

[coolio]

Hi. I'm new in the forum. I wanted to tell you my case. I am 30 years old, I am a doctor and for 6 months I used finasteride 1 mg / day. Although my frontal area improved, my libido also decreased and I started with generalized anguish, so I decided to abandon the treatment. When I read the prospect, I was surprised by the fact that sexual effects are almost non-existent, as is depression. But reading post I realize that the cases are many. This must be reported throughout the world. Currently I have been without finasteride for more than a year and I regained my libido but not 100%. There are times that I have to take tadalafil. Due to the effects of this poison, I decided that in 3 weeks I will undergo a capillary implant. Then I will use a 5% topical minoxidil to maintain. What is the experience we have with alfatradiol and what dose of finasteride is effective to minimize the reduction of 5-alpha reductase systemically? (How should the topical finasteride solution be prepared? In Argentina I have not found it). Thank you

Merck didn't find a sexual side effect problem for Finasteride during the R&D & trials because they weren't looking for it.

They only asked the usual cursory questionnaire about side effects (read: it's all self-reported). They only followed up the patients after quitting for 2 weeks - just long enough for a hormonal rebound. Not long enough to see how things really turned out for the affected patients after their endo system regained some equilibrium. The number of trialists who dropped out of the studies for 'undisclosed' reasons was above average and that was never pursued. Etc.

It was the 1980s. "Sexual sides in drug trials? Don't ask, don't tell, don't worry. The patients are never gonna talk to each other anyway. It's not like there is some worldwide communications web."

Some people use the 5ar drugs and claim no sides. A few people claim it seriously fucked them up with effects lingering for years after they quit. Many people claim something in the middle, with definite side effects but nothing too catastrophic or irreversible. The whole picture is about par for any drug that alters the balance of sex hormones.


BTW, to anyone thinking about quitting Finasteride - do it very gradually. Taper down the doses for weeks (if not months). Don't drop it cold turkey. Your hormone system will thank you.

When your dose is down to something very small, start spacing out the days between doses to spread out the quitting process farther. Don't neglect this last step. Finasteride's low dose-dependency makes this final step more important than with most drugs.

 

[Solidsnake]

[QUOTE = "tomJ, post: 1766909, miembro: 128454"] ¿Implante capilar? Por favor, explique de qué se trata? [/ CITA]
Is hair implant, bad traslation

 

[SuperDPAsteve]

Currently micro dosing topical finasteride at 0.1% Monday wednesday Friday. I got pre-medication hormone panels and will get another at 1 month. Hopefully will post a thread if I get the results by end of February. So far no sides, and I got hella sides on 0.25mg ED finasteride oral

 

[Solidsnake]

[QUOTE = "SuperDPAsteve, post: 1766962, miembro: 139984"] Actualmente la micro dosis de finasterida tópica está en 0.1% el lunes miércoles viernes. Obtuve los paneles de hormona de medicación previa y obtendré otro al mes. Espero que publiquemos un hilo si obtengo los resultados para fines de febrero. Hasta ahora no tengo bandos, y obtuve Hella en 0.25mg ED finasteride oral [/ QUOTE]


Hi. How did you do with the topical dose you mentioned? Do you have experience in oral 0.25 mg finasteride?

 

[Arne Reyns]

What do all of you guys use as vehicle alongside the finasteride? Is there a possibility with very little alcohol (as it makes me dizzy)?

 

[hailbrotzu]

Currently micro dosing topical finasteride at 0.1% Monday wednesday Friday. I got pre-medication hormone panels and will get another at 1 month. Hopefully will post a thread if I get the results by end of February. So far no sides, and I got hella sides on 0.25mg ED finasteride oral

Any update on this regimen?

 

[SomeoneHasToSayIt]

I mean it's not rocket science. Some percentage of what's placed on the scalp will go systemic, so the rate at which you're applying the stuff will be directly proportional to systemic inhibition.

All you can do is select the maximum rate that has tolerable systemic sides, which you modulate through application frequency and application dose. There's nothing magical about intermittent application... it's just one way to lower this rate (and probably the worse one).