Topical Finasteride VS Topical Dutasteride (Side effects)

[20YearsOnFin]

amybody who does have sides on 70% dht suppression must have them at half that then?

I don't think comparing your case to others is going to help much at this point, like I have already said you are not just anybody, you are somebody who has already shown a sensitivity even to topical.

Have you tried applying topical just once a week to see how you tolerate that?

 

[20YearsOnFin]

I am using 1mg topically, mozarella study used 1/10th of that and still apparently got some maintenance results over plqcebo so i can reduce the dose order of magnitude.

Otherwise like you have already mentioned If you have faith in the results of that study you posted, just try replicating the dose and formula exactly as they have done rather than keep trying to compare it to your own customized dose.

(Take at least a few weeks off your current regimen prior to starting)

A 0.005% solution of finasteride (vehicle consisting of 50% ethyl alcohol, 25%
propylene glycol, and 25% distilled water)

applied twice a day.

(would be preferable to make it at a compounding pharmacy or out of pure finasteride.)

You already know the main variables you have to play with are, the dose, the frequency of dose and the vehicle, so if you are side free on this kind of micro-dose, perhaps it has the potential to give you a starting point you can increase from.

 

[kiwi666]

He has already experienced ED from topical finasteride though.

My question is this: Has anyone who has developed ED from topical finasteride use, gone on to find a dose that was both side free and able to maintain their hair and if they did, what was their dose?

We don’t know that. He was likely still experiencing oral sides when he started topical.

 

[20YearsOnFin]

We don’t know that. He was likely still experiencing oral sides when he started topical.

You know that, I know that and everyone else who has replied to his posts telling him to take a break first before swapping to topical also knows that.

I'm only replying to him because he keeps calling everyone else on this forum 'stupid' and it was annoying me, In reality the guy comes across as misinformed, he thinks he is the smartest guy on the board and that he knows more about these topics then everyone else, but then posts the following and wonders why he still has sides.

i am coming from oral directly to topical, i never took a break since i wantes to make sure that dht is already maximally suppresses so that buildup of topical can not logically impact the resukts(it can only get less accumukated if the lqst oral dose was 5mg)

Why would you swap directly from oral to topical and expect it to provide an accurate set of results to work from?

He's way over thinking everything, and making it more complicated than it needs to be, and at the same time is choosing to ignore the basic information and practices that have already been common knowledge from over 2 decades of finasteride use.

 

[whymedamn]

Ok ok, lets stop the bickering gents.

Here is some good news.

Scratch that, great news:

Essentially they are very very close. Just have to find a way to not get the topical fina/duta in the body.

This will just need A LOT more testing with different ways of application.

I really do believe the starting point of a working compound (like fina/duta) to a place where you have something that works without sides is 1000X easier than to now find a new solution that right away works without sides (e.g. kintor).

And a different perspective.

peace

 

[Mr. Slap Head]

If a "smart" carrier could be developed to limit E2 to just the scalp we basically would have the cure, or the closest thing to it for a non tranie. Or a synthetic estradiol that degrades into harmless metabolites.

 

[badnewsbearer]

yes i think this is more realistic and that the cure lies in delivery ans not rhe compound. sure you can cook up soke fancy iRNA tech and it might work but it is just as advanced as just making a good vehicle for 1999 finasterise

 

[20YearsOnFin]

making a good vehicle for 1999 finasterise

What is "1999 finasterise" ? or are you just trying to refer to 1mg finasteride that was FDA approved for hair loss in 1997?

 

[kiwi666]

yes i think this is more realistic and that the cure lies in delivery ans not rhe compound. sure you can cook up soke fancy iRNA tech and it might work but it is just as advanced as just making a good vehicle for 1999 finasterise

The difference in delivery is side effects or not side effects. If we who experience side effects on oral and topical don’t get sides l’ll be stoked.

The science in 1999, even if it existed, was not known in the context of finasteride and your dick not working.

 

[kiwi666]

Interesting videos, especially guy from H and W talking about topical fina or duta becoming the new gold standard.

Reminds me of Iderlivery that our good friend @FollicleGuardian is cooking up

They are both really interesting. Topical dutasteride sounds boss.

 

[20YearsOnFin]

Not sure they can be classed as particularly new treatments though?

They have both been studied or used off label for over a decade, for the transplant industry I take it they can be a god send as the rate of patients who are averse to the idea of oral medication is often high.

The problem comes down to nobody seems to want to develop them into a commonly available commercial product, whether that's due to patents, a costly approval process, fear of lawsuits from side effects or the fact that after spending all the money developing them they will be instantly be cloned, I'm not sure.

Are the H and W topicals still going to be for off label use like all the ones currently available or are they going to seek some kind of approval?

 

[20YearsOnFin]

The science in 1999, even if it existed, was not known in the context of finasteride and your dick not working

Sorry am I misreading this?

Why would Merck not know and understand that finasteride could cause impotence at that time?

They had already been researching it since the 70's and would have know its sexual side effects before proscar was approved in 1992.

The only difference I can see, is they would have had no long term data to determine how common the side effects were, or if any of them were permanent until all the follow up safety studies were completed during 1992-98.

 

[kiwi666]

Sorry, I’m saying they would not have been researching it’s topical application back then.

As an example iDelivery came out last year. The Indians came up with micro needling pads. And others e.g. listen to the Hasan and Wong talk above.

 

[20YearsOnFin]

Sorry, I’m saying they would not have been researching it’s topical application back then.

Ok, no worries, was thinking you might have meant that.

What we have to remember though, is that 16 month topical finasteride study that has resurfaced again by ''Mazzarella et al'' , says it was published in 1997, so I'm assuming it started maybe in 1995 ? (2 years prior to Propecia being approved).

So I find it almost inconceivable that Merck wouldn't have done some inhouse research on the feasibility of releasing Propecia as a topical product instead of oral.

This is purely speculation on my part, and obviously the fact that Proscar was already oral was the major factor, but perhaps there was also a desire for Merck to completely distinguish its product from its only competitor on the market at the time which just so happened to be a topical (Rogaine)

Who knows had Loniten been approved for hairloss in the 1980's instead of topical minoxidil, we may well have seen a reversed hair loss treatment landscape.

Where minoxidil was only approved as an oral and Propecia was always a topical product.

 

[20YearsOnFin]

Sorry, I’m saying they would not have been researching it’s topical application back then.

Update:

''In 1985, Merck & Co. itself had filed a patent disclosing the use of finasteride as a compound to treat hyperandrogenic conditions by oral or topical administration; and in 1988 it had filed another patent disclosing the use of finasteride by topical administration for treating androgenic alopecia''

 

[pegasus2]

Interesting videos, especially guy from H and W talking about topical fina or duta becoming the new gold standard.

Reminds me of Iderlivery that our good friend @FollicleGuardian is cooking up

H&W don't happen to sell these topical formulations, do they?

 

[badnewsbearer]

i do bot believe H&W one second

 

[20YearsOnFin]

One of Merck's Patents from 1988 discussing the topical application of finasteride is here if anyone is bored.

https://patentimages.storage.googleapis.com/3b/e7/9a/617f8aaed4dfc7/EP0285382B1.pdf

Has a few mock examples of old skool topical formulas.

Skin Gel:
17/3-(N-tertbutylcarbamoyl)-4-aza-5a-androst-1-en-3-one 2.00% by weight
PPG2 Myristyl Ether Propionate 45.00
PPG10 Cetyl Ether 5.00 C18-C36 Triglyceride 4.00
Myristyl Myristate 3.00
Glyceryl Tribebenate 2.00
Cyclomethicone 34.00
Polyethylene 5.00

Cream Shampoo:

17^-(N-tertbutylcarbamoyl)-4-aza-5a-androst-1-en-3-one 0.1% by weight
Sodium Laureth Sulfate 65.0
Glyceryl Tribebenate 2.0
Hydrolysed Collagen 1 .0
Laurie Diethanolamide 5.0
Water 26.9

 

[20YearsOnFin]

We should count ourselves lucky their extra strong finasteride toothpaste never made it to market.

 

[badnewsbearer]

i dont even know whether a topical with reduced sytsemic absorption but high local activity is actually possible even if soneone invested in it. it might not be possible physically after all. for me personally i think an equivalent dose of topicak finasteride causes jist as much side effects, i thibk a big reason for this is that 40% of finasteride gets metabolized in the liver into a weaker metabolity, in the skin this barely happens so the finasteride that hits the blood is extra potent. i have not noticed a difference, i did not expect to be side free but i did expect a 100 fold!! reducrion in serum finasteride levels to have some effect. i am using so little but my libido is completely destroyed and my dick feels like sh*t. i dont know what to do at this point. however i cannot wfford to go bald and i am not gojng to order the sh*t RU either or some bs fomppund from china. so i will have to take it and live with the sides. to me losing my hair and knowing what i would look like without finasteride at mid 20 is just barely less worse than having these side effects which i really really hate too but its picking your poison basically. i will get my blood results next week, they may be a bit sh*t bc i sid not sleep well the night before snd that affects testosterone levels of course but i never sleep well so thats just like last time. if my estrogen is still twice of what it shoukd be then i dont know what the f*** im doing here anymore, i nees to shave and live with looking absolutely disgusting and having an awful day everytime i get up and look in the mirror. what a sad existence this is. i did mock ups to see what id look like buzzed or bald and its so mindblowingly disgusting, its better to have ED than to lose your sense of identitiy and yourwelf tbh, both are sh*t but one gives me more depression snd for now that is not taking finasteride tbh..