(UPDATE) Unforeseen Dutasteride Sideeffects

[drinkrum]

UPDATE ON THIS ONE (March 7th 2005)

I stopped taking Avodart the day after I listed this post, because I felt suspicious that the physical symptoms could be related to Avodart. I must admit that my suspicion seems to have been confirmed since I do no longer experience any of the mentioned side effects!! Im really happy, of course - but also a little surprised that Avodart could have such an impact on my body. My skin is no longer drying out, my sleep seems to be normalizing, my knees are less sore and perhaps most noticeable I am once again able to build up muscle like I was before I started taking Avodart. Some of this may be in my mind (placebo), but I as far as the objektive measure of musle mass there is no doubt. The only changed parameter has been the exclusion of Avodart.

I think this should be a word of caution if you consider taking Avodart. I should also mention that before starting on Avodart I was taking finasteride without any troubeling side effects except from a decrease in ejaculaton volume which went away the first week. Im taking finasteride (1mg) again every day and have just added Proxiphen to my regimen. Btw - took Avodart for 3 monts but only experienced shedding - which, of course, could be an indication that is was working in the scalp.

Other posters and I have answered many of the questions posed on this thread. So look up my old posts and ye shall find. But here is a snapshot:

5-AR I (the extra isozyme that dutasteride inhibits) is found in skeletal muscle tissue. DHT, however, is rapidly deactivated in muscle tissue by the enzyme 3 alpha-hydroxysteroid dehydrogenase, which metabolizes it. Thus, DHT is not considered anabolic, but rather purely androgenic. On the other hand, testosterone is thought to be the main protagonist of muscle growth (anabolic) and less androgenic relative to DHT. 5-AR II (the one isozyme that finasteride inhibits) is found mostly in genital tissue. People that have a congenital lack of 5-AR II have normal musculature after puberty, again indicating that T, not DHT, is mainly responsible for muscle growth. I have posted some medical research on this topic as well -- you may find my thread here: http://www.gourmetstylewellness.com/discussions ... hp?t=14507

While the effects of finasteride are more-or-less documented, dutasteride remains largely an enigma. As Bismarck and I will be quick to point out, the 5-AR I isozyme is found in the myelin sheath of neural cells. Thus, there might be scary long-term side effects of dutasteride. Who knows. With finasteride, we have more science and history behind us. But still, hormones work in peculiar ways.

D.

 

[Bismarck]

Well, the ALLO synthesis seems to be supressed by Finasteride as well. But psychological or mental effects of finasteride are very rarely in contrast to dutasteride.

So the question is: Has the ALLO synthesis in situ (i.e. in the brain) a much greater impact than the synthesis from type II ?


You are right that there is more data related to finasteride, but no long-term data as it would be important for telling for example about an increased risk to develop Alzheimer,

 

[Bismarck]

Here are some symptoms. Guess what they resulted from:

• Mood-related ("affective") symptoms: depression, sadness, anxiety, anger, irritability, frequent and severe mood swings[/*:m:8a96c]
• Mental process ("cognitive") symptoms: decreased concentration, indecision[/*:m:8a96c]
• Pain: headache, breast tenderness, joint and muscle pain[/*:m:8a96c]
• Nervous system symptoms: insomnia (sleeplessness), hypersomnia (sleeping for abnormally long periods of time), anorexia, food cravings, fatigue, lethargy, agitation, a change in sex drive, clumsiness, dizziness or vertigo, paresthesia (prickling or tingling sensation)[/*:m:8a96c]
• Gastrointestinal symptoms: nausea, diarrhea, palpitations (rapid fluttering of the heart), sweating[/*:m:8a96c]
• Fluid and electrolyte symptoms: bloating, weight gain, oliguria (reduced urination)[/*:m:8a96c]
• Skin symptoms: acne, oily skin, greasy or dry hair[/*:m:8a96c]

 

[Bismarck]

And consider these symptoms

• Headaches[/*:m:936bd]
• Libido changes[/*:m:936bd]
• Trouble sleeping[/*:m:936bd]
• Mood swings (aggression, crankiness, bad mood swings, being more alert)[/*:m:936bd]
• Dry face, scalp and beard[/*:m:936bd]
• Stomach cramps, gastric disorders[/*:m:936bd]

 

[Mindfull]

my guess would be PMS !

Here are some symptoms. Guess what they resulted from:

• Mood-related ("affective") symptoms: depression, sadness, anxiety, anger, irritability, frequent and severe mood swings[/*:m:00480]
• Mental process ("cognitive") symptoms: decreased concentration, indecision[/*:m:00480]
• Pain: headache, breast tenderness, joint and muscle pain[/*:m:00480]
• Nervous system symptoms: insomnia (sleeplessness), hypersomnia (sleeping for abnormally long periods of time), anorexia, food cravings, fatigue, lethargy, agitation, a change in sex drive, clumsiness, dizziness or vertigo, paresthesia (prickling or tingling sensation)[/*:m:00480]
• Gastrointestinal symptoms: nausea, diarrhea, palpitations (rapid fluttering of the heart), sweating[/*:m:00480]
• Fluid and electrolyte symptoms: bloating, weight gain, oliguria (reduced urination)[/*:m:00480]
• Skin symptoms: acne, oily skin, greasy or dry hair[/*:m:00480]

 

[Bismarck]

my guess would be PMS !

Here are some symptoms. Guess what they resulted from:

• Mood-related ("affective") symptoms: depression, sadness, anxiety, anger, irritability, frequent and severe mood swings[/*:m:5c7d1]
• Mental process ("cognitive") symptoms: decreased concentration, indecision[/*:m:5c7d1]
• Pain: headache, breast tenderness, joint and muscle pain[/*:m:5c7d1]
• Nervous system symptoms: insomnia (sleeplessness), hypersomnia (sleeping for abnormally long periods of time), anorexia, food cravings, fatigue, lethargy, agitation, a change in sex drive, clumsiness, dizziness or vertigo, paresthesia (prickling or tingling sensation)[/*:m:5c7d1]
• Gastrointestinal symptoms: nausea, diarrhea, palpitations (rapid fluttering of the heart), sweating[/*:m:5c7d1]
• Fluid and electrolyte symptoms: bloating, weight gain, oliguria (reduced urination)[/*:m:5c7d1]
• Skin symptoms: acne, oily skin, greasy or dry hair[/*:m:5c7d1]

Well done, (google?) !

And they are very similar the the other symptoms I posted !

 

[Mindfull]

my guess would be Avodart...

Im not sure if Im getting this right. Is 5AR II also present in the brain? Why would there be an increased risk of developing alzheimers from taking finasteride?
And why would I have trouble gaining muscle when a lot more dht was beeing supressed, possibly leaving more testosterone circulationg in my body (which should theoretically help build up muscle)

And consider these symptoms

• Headaches[/*:m:b83d5]
• Libido changes[/*:m:b83d5]
• Trouble sleeping[/*:m:b83d5]
• Mood swings (aggression, crankiness, bad mood swings, being more alert)[/*:m:b83d5]
• Dry face, scalp and beard[/*:m:b83d5]
• Stomach cramps, gastric disorders[/*:m:b83d5]

 

[drinkrum]

Well, the ALLO synthesis seems to be supressed by Finasteride as well. But psychological or mental effects of finasteride are very rarely in contrast to dutasteride.

So the question is: Has the ALLO synthesis in situ (i.e. in the brain) a much greater impact than the synthesis from type II ?


You are right that there is more data related to finasteride, but no long-term data as it would be important for telling for example about an increased risk to develop Alzheimer,

Bismarck,

Talked to my reproductive endocrinologist at Harvard/Boston Mass. Gen. who is a leading researcher in the field. This is what she had to say, "I have never seen any central nervous system problems on this dose of
finasteride."

By the way, I just threw out Alzheimer's disease as a discussion topic, but later edited my post and removed that to avoid scarying the sh*t out of people.

D.

 

[drinkrum]

By the way, finasteride at 1 mg/day increases T for the first couple of weeks, but usually this increase is negated afterwards as T levels return to baseline. I don't know about dutasteride in this respect.

D.

 

[Bismarck]

Talked to my reproductive endocrinologist at Harvard/Boston Mass. Gen. who is a leading researcher in the field. This is what she had to say, "I have never seen any central nervous system problems on this dose of
finasteride."

I think it is clear that these effects (if they exist) appear immediately. If at all , the effects are visible in the long term (30+ years) I think. You get no lung tomorrow if you smoke a cigarette today.

 

[Mindfull]

Talked to my reproductive endocrinologist at Harvard/Boston Mass. Gen. who is a leading researcher in the field. This is what she had to say, "I have never seen any central nervous system problems on this dose of
finasteride."

I think it is clear that these effects (if they exist) appear immediately. If at all , the effects are visible in the long term (30+ years) I think. You get no lung tomorrow if you smoke a cigarette today.

But shouldt the biological model for 5AR II deficiency be some sort of guarantee that there are no such unforeseen long term side effects?!

 

[Mindfull]

By the way, I just threw out Alzheimer's disease as a discussion topic, but later edited my post and removed that to avoid scarying the sh*t out of people.

D.

Yeah well, you sort of got me going there for a second!!:::

 

[Bismarck]

Talked to my reproductive endocrinologist at Harvard/Boston Mass. Gen. who is a leading researcher in the field. This is what she had to say, "I have never seen any central nervous system problems on this dose of
finasteride."

I think it is clear that these effects (if they exist) appear immediately. If at all , the effects are visible in the long term (30+ years) I think. You get no lung tomorrow if you smoke a cigarette today.

But shouldt the biological model for 5AR II deficiency be some sort of guarantee that there are no such unforeseen long term side effects?!

Actually a good question. Do you know whether this deficiency affects only type II ? Do a search on Niemann-Pick - disease.

bis

 

[drinkrum]

Talked to my reproductive endocrinologist at Harvard/Boston Mass. Gen. who is a leading researcher in the field. This is what she had to say, "I have never seen any central nervous system problems on this dose of
finasteride."

I think it is clear that these effects (if they exist) appear immediately. If at all , the effects are visible in the long term (30+ years) I think. You get no lung tomorrow if you smoke a cigarette today.

But shouldt the biological model for 5AR II deficiency be some sort of guarantee that there are no such unforeseen long term side effects?!

Actually a good question. Do you know whether this deficiency affects only type II ? Do a search on Niemann-Pick - disease.

bis

What is the relevance of Niemann-Pick disease?

Are you guys talking about the congenital 5-alpha reductase deficiency? If so, yes it only affects type II 5-AR.

D.

 

[Mindfull]

Talked to my reproductive endocrinologist at Harvard/Boston Mass. Gen. who is a leading researcher in the field. This is what she had to say, "I have never seen any central nervous system problems on this dose of
finasteride."

I think it is clear that these effects (if they exist) appear immediately. If at all , the effects are visible in the long term (30+ years) I think. You get no lung tomorrow if you smoke a cigarette today.

But shouldt the biological model for 5AR II deficiency be some sort of guarantee that there are no such unforeseen long term side effects?!

Actually a good question. Do you know whether this deficiency affects only type II ? Do a search on Niemann-Pick - disease.

bis

What is the relevance of Niemann-Pick disease?

Are you guys talking about the congenital 5-alpha reductase deficiency? If so, yes it only affects type II 5-AR.

D.

Then I would expect the congenital 5-alpha reductase deficiency to be ones guarantee that you should not expect any unforeseen neural interaction or degeneration from taking finasteride. dutasteride is a different story since there are no such cases of congenital 5-alpha reductase deficiency for the type I 5-AR. And that is whats is scary about taking dutasteride - no one knows the long term side effects

 

[Bismarck]

[quote="drinkrum":b5cbc]

Talked to my reproductive endocrinologist at Harvard/Boston Mass. Gen. who is a leading researcher in the field. This is what she had to say, "I have never seen any central nervous system problems on this dose of
finasteride."

I think it is clear that these effects (if they exist) appear immediately. If at all , the effects are visible in the long term (30+ years) I think. You get no lung tomorrow if you smoke a cigarette today.

But shouldt the biological model for 5AR II deficiency be some sort of guarantee that there are no such unforeseen long term side effects?!

Actually a good question. Do you know whether this deficiency affects only type II ? Do a search on Niemann-Pick - disease.

bis

What is the relevance of Niemann-Pick disease?

Are you guys talking about the congenital 5-alpha reductase deficiency? If so, yes it only affects type II 5-AR.

D.

Then I would expect the congenital 5-alpha reductase deficiency to be ones guarantee that you should not expect any unforeseen neural interaction or degeneration from taking finasteride. dutasteride is a different story since there are no such cases of congenital 5-alpha reductase deficiency for the type I 5-AR. And that is whats is scary about taking dutasteride - no one knows the long term side effects[/quote:b5cbc]

Exactly. But there could be some kind of adaption effect if you are born with such a deficiency.

 

[Armando Jose]

Hi guys;

Is there persons with complete androgen insensitivity sindrome (CAIS)?

What happen in this cases?

What kind of adaption effect exist if you are born with such a deficiency?

TIA

Armando

 

[Mindfull]

somebody should compile some of the major questions that arise in a devoloping thread - and then ask an expert and post the answer in the end of the thread. That would be awesome. Some of the topics get a little complicated and too speculative to leave people with anything than a reason or perhaps no reason for anxiety about different drugs.

 

[drinkrum]

I have been asking an expert on the field. She is the top researcher in the field and a doctor at Harvard. As I mentioned, she told me she's never seen any central nervous problems on 1 mg/day finasteride. Another e-mail she sent me mentioned that musculature should not be affected by finasteride. I have posed a couple more questions; let's see what she says.

D.

 

[drinkrum]

Exactly. But there could be some kind of adaption effect if you are born with such a deficiency.

Explain this "adaptation effect"? People born with congenital 5-AR II deficiency have low DHT their entire lives. During puberty, they go from being a pseudohermaphrodite to a male in the sense that their phallus grows, testes descend, voice deepens, body becomes more muscular, body hair and facial hair grow, etc. However, they are never fully masculine -- they continue to have scant facial and body hair, and they never grow bald.

D.