Very Impressive Dermarolling And Minxodil Results - From Tressless

[kiwipilu]

Just did my 2nd treatment (1.5mm Dr. Roller Derma Roller, every 2 weeks, medium+ pressure).
Feel my scalp pulsing again like the first time.
Didn't apply anything (Soon I'll get the peppermint and rosemary oils and next time will apply them about 12 hours after rolling and the following few days).
Disturbing pic is attached (and might also answer the question why this is not recommended to the general public).
It was painful but bearable for me. Not fun though, to say the least. It's not something a normal human should go through.

this is how my scalp looks like after sessions. but in my case it's even more bloody because I insist quite a bit along my hairline . watch out for the pitures. I know they are not that graphic and like I said I have more blood but admins keep a close eye on such threads.
that said Im not a big fan of applying topicals couple of days following the procedure. unless it's known stuff that could help (wnt). We have no idea how topicals could interfere with the "wounding process".

How damn hard are you pushing? I also use a 1,5mm dermaroller, but I hardly get a red scalp. And its not like Im lightly rolling it over my scalp.

I had the same. I was using 1.5roller and I had only reddish scalp but it was painfull to say the least... I switched to dermastamp.you can insist vertically, and it's way less painfull. Actually to me it's not painfull at all. I advice you to switch to a dermstamp or electric device if you have money. if you have a big area to cover a 80-100needles is needed . if you want to regrow limited area such as temples small dermstamp(10>30needles) is fine and more precise. that's my pov...

 

[MinervaCGI]

By the by what the hell is going on with sandalore?

 

[MinervaCGI]

Just did my 2nd treatment (1.5mm Dr. Roller Derma Roller, every 2 weeks, medium+ pressure).
Feel my scalp pulsing again like the first time.
Didn't apply anything (Soon I'll get the peppermint and rosemary oils and next time will apply them about 12 hours after rolling and the following few days).
Disturbing pic is attached (and might also answer the question why this is not recommended to the general public).
It was painful but bearable for me. Not fun though, to say the least. It's not something a normal human should go through.

Bro you should try to get dermapen. If you can't afford it go for the cheap one.

 

[Headdy]

You guys are probably right...
I do, however, use 1.5mm and not 2mm, and I give it enough time to heal (last time I rolled was 2.5 weeks ago).
I didn't push that hard actually but that's subjective and next time I will roll fewer times / less pressure.

 

[kiwipilu]

You're overdoing it mate. No need to draw blood, look at the reddit guy he said he hardly bled at all. Any maybe buy a dermapen.

we can't really know the right balance.both ways showed results. Some have results by wounding quite hard(deep) and some have results with light erythema. people use a wide range of needles length (0,5 >2,..... maybe it's depends on the pattern itself ,hairloss history. ..
in the chinese study dont forget this line "local hemorrhaging". but hey that does not mean you want tomato sauce on your scalp.

 

[Headdy]

that said Im not a big fan of applying topicals couple of days following the procedure. unless it's known stuff that could help (wnt). We have no idea how topicals could interfere with the "wounding process".

What does "wnt" mean?

 

[MinervaCGI]

You guys are probably right...
I do, however, use 1.5mm and not 2mm, and I give it enough time to heal (last time I rolled was 2.5 weeks ago).
I didn't push that hard actually but that's subjective and next time I will roll fewer times / less pressure.

I guess that's fine because the Chinese used length 1.5mm to 2.5mm so there is nothing to worry about. But do use 192 number of needles because the 520 one is literally a spiked tire.

 

[MinervaCGI]

Seriously guys what the f*** is this?

Sandalore should be on the list for those who are worried about min side effects.

 

[kiwipilu]

What does "wnt" mean?

that's what follica is working on.wounding + applying a topical(drug) to boost the effect. But dermarolling on its own already release wnt proteins (according to papers). so if you see results there is no need to apply experimental drugs.

 

[MinervaCGI]

What does "wnt" mean?

It's some growth factor that is directly responsible for creating brand new hair follicles on the head. I'm talking about hair neogenesis similar to the development of hair follicles during the embryonic stage of the pregnancy.

 

[Headdy]

that's what follica is working on.wounding + applying a topical(drug) to boost the effect. But dermarolling on its own already release wnt proteins (according to papers). so if you see results there is no need to apply experimental drugs.

What are your thoughts about peppermint oil and rosemary oil?

 

[Headdy]

I guess that's fine because the Chinese used length 1.5mm to 2.5mm so there is nothing to worry about. But do use 192 number of needles because the 520 one is literally a spiked tire.

Cool. Yeah I think it's fine.
And I am using a 192 needles. This one:

 

[MinervaCGI]

Cool. Yeah I think it's fine.
And I am using a 192 needles. This one:
View attachment 106597

I also used the 192 needle 1.5mm and i didn't bleed. I think you fine. One of the effects of dermarolling is fast cell proliferation.

This lady had very bad post inflammatory hyperpigmentation and the study claimed that faster cell proliferation happens immediately after wounding. It will peak at 2 months. I feel your skin will thicken up a bit and in the future it will hurt or bleed less. I'm not sure of this because it's a claim that like retin a dermarolling increases skin thickness. But I don't think you should worry about this. Different people have different type of skin. You should continue this, especially if you start getting results. Please use a hand sanitizer before and after dermarolling because we human unknowingly touch wounds a lot.

 

[Headdy]

I also used the 192 needle 1.5mm and i didn't bleed. I think you fine. One of the effects of dermarolling is fast cell proliferation.

This lady had very bad post inflammatory hyperpigmentation and the study claimed that faster cell proliferation happens immediately after wounding. It will peak at 2 months. I feel your skin will thicken up a bit and in the future it will hurt or bleed less. I'm not sure of this because it's a claim that like retin a dermarolling increases skin thickness. But I don't think you should worry about this. Different people have different type of skin. You should continue this, especially if you start getting results. Please use a hand sanitizer before and after dermarolling because we human unknowingly touch wounds a lot.

View attachment 106598

Skin will most likely get thicker because there is a continuous collagen buildup that lasts about 3 months. I started rolling on some stretch marks that I have before even knowing that needling the scalp could possibly help regrow hair.

I soak the roller for 15 mins before and after each roll.
I also try to disinfect my scalp using a pad with alcohol, although it's kinda hard with all the hair, but I do what I can

 

[MinervaCGI]

Figuratively speaking, an ordinary hypodermic needle merely “pushes” cells aside. In a classical wound usually bleeding occurs from punctured or cut vessels. In contrast during microneedling there is minimal to no bleeding since only capillaries are punctured. Never-the-less, the mild trauma to the skin results in a mild inflammatory response, likely due to bradykinins and histamine release from mast cells.

Skin will most likely get thicker because there is a continuous collagen buildup that lasts about 3 months. I started rolling on some stretch marks that I have before even knowing that needling the scalp could possibly help regrow hair.

I soak the roller for 15 mins before and after each roll.
I also try to disinfect my scalp using a pad with alcohol, although it's kinda hard with all the hair, but I do what I can

Yeah I have diffuse thinning and it's hard everything;

1. Applying minoxidil
2. Disinfecting the scalp
3. Dermarolling with a roller(some hair get stuck).

I just read this a long time ago that we unconsciously touch the wound especially if it gets even a little itchy and I think it would be a great idea to sanitize the hand. What are your pads with alcohol called? I've been just using hand sanitizer LOL. Could you post the brand name?

 

[ToLGuy]

I agree but you are also not totally correct because two studies in two different countries using two different mechanisms produced great results. It is unlikely that both study assigned good responders using random sorting. The probability of this happening is too low. It has been proven that this works and at the very least considerably improves the response of the de facto big 3, which in my opinion should be min+finasteride+dermarolling.

I agree that this isn't the cure but it merits it's position in the de facto 3 treatments we are using currently. I mean Nizoral has weak results backing it up when you compare it with research in wounding.

I'm saying that you odds improve when you add wounding.

The Chinese study was twice the length of the Indian study, so either their methodology was more effective and powerful or it was just more dermarolling on a longer time frame that increased the percentage of responders to this therapy. I don't see why dermarolling should not be considered a permanent addition to the de facto trio of treatment when there are three different blind studies that show that it is significantly better than minoxidil alone. These studies has no corporate backing or conflict of interest. In fact, the head of the Indian study became an advisory after she did the study.

http://www.follicabio.com/biocoming-soon

I have posted this pictures to show evidence outside of the study because four things are surely true-

1. Hair follicles do not die. This is a myth.

"The follicles that make hair don't go away completely, but they become miniaturized, to the point where the hair they normally make to replace hair when it naturally falls out becomes microscopic and therefore invisible," Cotsarelis said.

2. Wounding releases growth factors and forces random hair neogenesis.

3. There has been no study in the long term benefits of wounding apart from experiences from people who have tried it long term and almost all of them are on their way to at least NW2. So, we don't know if bad responders will just take much longer or if it won't work for them considering there is a study on 4 participants that got worse on min+finasteride and even they started responding to min+derma(finasteride was dropped) after dermarolling was incorporated into their regimen.

4. The body does not run out of growth factors.

I have no desire to say this is the holy grail and we have solved it. Not at all. Because the holy grail is figuring out how to push random neogenesis toward predictable neogenesis which in my opinion is the true cure.

I posted these results to inspire people in a way that shows them that they have nothing to lose and only better odds of recovery to gain. I posted them for myself who has given up in spite of results because it hurts like hell, and I didn't respond to min and finasteride either. finasteride caused a shed and devastated my hairline. It is now maintaining it just above baseline. So many of us give up early because it's a f*****g chore to do this stuff and I just want people to try this long term because we don't know if this keeps working the more we do it. This is what the participants in the thread should focus on. This is what I should focus on. We need to figure out if the more we do it and the longer we do, do we keep getting benefits? Because Somebody, MyThinningConfidence and the guy on whom this thread is based on have had continued benefit from dermarolling. We also need to figure out if applying minoxidil right after dermarolling is better than dermarolling alone and I did my first session and applied right after on my worst hit area, a circular area 1.5 inch in diameter on my crown. Apart from the initial sting for a few seconds(similar to what I felt when I used Somebody's method), it didn't cause any side effects. It was just 0.5ml and that is enough for such a small area.

I posted these results because I too am a pessimist and too scientific. I don't believe things easily either. But that studies have me intrigued and I have to try now and make a commitment that I will do it over a long period of time, say 1.5 years or even 2 years, and do so once every two weeks to either prove or disprove this theory. There is no other way of knowing if it works.

Oh absolutely, I mostly agree with what you said as well.
Yes, given the studies we've ve got to date, the probability of being a non-responder should be extremely low assuming their ramdom sampling. I understand that. What puzzles me regarding that is that this does not match the proportion of non responders we have seen empirically in the community trials of a few years ago:
Both here and in in the baldtruth forums, especially In the latter, lots of people were complaining about not getting results. Actually, there were more complainers than successful subjects in terms of regrowth. Even right now, we have a guy who has been needlinhg for 8 months and he hasn't seen results, actually he claims he is getting worse. Now, why is there such an incongruence between anecdotal evidence and published studies? I have 2 hypothesis to explain this:

1) anecdotal accounts are less reliable. Yeah, this will always be inferior to published, controlled experiments. In the latter, every single subject is getting exactly the same regime consistently, while in anecdotal accounts, inconsistency is everywhere and there is a lot of noise that can be affecting the differential outcomes between subjects. So, basically, there is always the chance that non-responders are just doing something wrong and aren't replicating the studies with enough fidelity.

2) Racial bias: Yeah, both studies have conducted random sampling... But they did so within their local population: India and China, respectively. It occurs to me that there might be differential responses to treatments between "races", or ethnic groups. What if Indian and Chinese people... Or eastern Asians in general, has a higher propability of response? Sounds weird, but it is a possibility. If so, then probably western ethnic groups have a somewhat lower probability of response, and that's why we are seeing a broader spectrum of outcomes: a noticeable fraction of non-responders, as well as mild to incredible cases of hyper responders. It would be interesting if someone conducts a controlled experiment in a western country, including a high diversity of ethnic groups.

I really hope it's the first hypothesis. I wouldn't like to face the fact that there is a probability of being a non-responder... I don't want to fall into that category. But the wisest thing is to be prepared for such an outcome. That is why having a pinch of skepticism is always psychologically healthy

 

[ToLGuy]

Oh absolutely, I mostly agree with what you said as well.
Yes, given the studies we've ve got to date, the probability of being a non-responder should be extremely low assuming their ramdom sampling. I understand that. What puzzles me regarding that is that this does not match the proportion of non responders we have seen empirically in the community trials of a few years ago:
Both here and in in the baldtruth forums, especially In the latter, lots of people were complaining about not getting results. Actually, there were more complainers than successful subjects in terms of regrowth. Even right now, we have a guy who has been needlinhg for 8 months and he hasn't seen results, actually he claims he is getting worse. Now, why is there such an incongruence between anecdotal evidence and published studies? I have 2 hypothesis to explain this:

1) anecdotal accounts are less reliable. Yeah, this will always be inferior to published, controlled experiments. In the latter, every single subject is getting exactly the same regime consistently, while in anecdotal accounts, inconsistency is everywhere and there is a lot of noise that can be affecting the differential outcomes between subjects. So, basically, there is always the chance that non-responders are just doing something wrong and aren't replicating the studies with enough fidelity.

2) Racial bias: Yeah, both studies have conducted random sampling... But they did so within their local population: India and China, respectively. It occurs to me that there might be differential responses to treatments between "races", or ethnic groups. What if Indian and Chinese people... Or eastern Asians in general, has a higher propability of response? Sounds weird, but it is a possibility. If so, then probably western ethnic groups have a somewhat lower probability of response, and that's why we are seeing a broader spectrum of outcomes: a noticeable fraction of non-responders, as well as mild to incredible cases of hyper responders. It would be interesting if someone conducts a controlled experiment in a western country, including a high diversity of ethnic groups.

I really hope it's the first hypothesis. I wouldn't like to face the fact that there is a probability of being a non-responder... I don't want to fall into that category. But the wisest thing is to be prepared for such an outcome. That is why having a pinch of skepticism is always psychologically healthy

I also forgot to add to the first hypothesis, that some of the alleged non-responders were also quitting very early because they weren't seeing results soon enough. And by early I mean in 6 months or even less.

 

[MinervaCGI]

For those who want to try applying minoxidil right after

We would like to emphasize that in contrast to ablative procedures, post-op infections after microneedling are very unlikely due to the rapid closure of the SC within a maximum of 15 minutes. Bal et al10 have not reported any negative side effects in their reports.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3921236/

 

[Headdy]

Figuratively speaking, an ordinary hypodermic needle merely “pushes” cells aside. In a classical wound usually bleeding occurs from punctured or cut vessels. In contrast during microneedling there is minimal to no bleeding since only capillaries are punctured. Never-the-less, the mild trauma to the skin results in a mild inflammatory response, likely due to bradykinins and histamine release from mast cells.




Yeah I have diffuse thinning and it's hard everything;

1. Applying minoxidil
2. Disinfecting the scalp
3. Dermarolling with a roller(some hair get stuck).

I just read this a long time ago that we unconsciously touch the wound especially if it gets even a little itchy and I think it would be a great idea to sanitize the hand. What are your pads with alcohol called? I've been just using hand sanitizer LOL. Could you post the brand name?

Hand sanitizer is fine for your hands (I just wash my hands with antiseptic soap bar).
For the head I just use regular cotton pads (like women use to remove their makeup) and I pour 70% alcohol on it and then wipe the scalp with best effort

 

[Longway886]

I know I keep posting progress pics early and I know people will say just wait but I think these pics show the progress better, it seems to be happening faster now and can feel thick stuble in the places I was completely bald! this is all in 6 weeks, my head looks browner in the after photo because i went on the sunbed a couple of times

I use sandalor aswell, might be worth people adding that if they aren’t seeing results, who knows

And I know people think i’m a bit fantaical about all this, I’m just buzzing that something is finally working for me! The stress this has put on my life was unbarable! I hope we all get results from this