Very Impressive Dermarolling And Minxodil Results - From Tressless

[the smoking baby]

Perhaps some of you might remember, I tried needling every two weeks at 1.75 mm (w/ daily usage of minoxidil) for almost 6 months without any improvement at all. However, all my cartridges were 10 needle cartridges. I just ordered some 36 needle cartridges and will start experimenting again - probably in January 2020. My experiment will be according to the following regimen, though of course I accept suggestions for improvement:

• Frequency: once a month
• Depth: 1.5 mm
• Needle density: 36 needle head for TBPHP needling device
• Topical: minoxidil 5% once daily

Any thoughts on wound density or on my new experiment regimen?

I ordered the 36-needle head two weeks ago and just waiting for delivery. Going to try something similar except a bi-weekly wounding regimen with the more dense needle cartridges at 1.5 mm. I also ordered the nano-needle cartridges and I plan to needle with these daily for better absorption of minoxidil (which will also be applied once daily).

I have tried various wounding depths over a somewhat inconsistent schedule (sometimes 1x week, sometimes 1x every other week, sometimes 1.5 mm, sometimes 2 mm). I have been at needling for about a year and have seen only moderate thickening (on the vertex, where I have concentrated the wounding effort).

 

[cryingariver]

Month 10 crown update. Changed from roller to pen and definitely seeing better results

How many needles do you use in your derma pen cartridges?

 

[pegasus2]

I ordered the 36-needle head two weeks ago and just waiting for delivery. Going to try something similar except a bi-weekly wounding regimen with the more dense needle cartridges at 1.5 mm. I also ordered the nano-needle cartridges and I plan to needle with these daily for better absorption of minoxidil (which will also be applied once daily).

I have tried various wounding depths over a somewhat inconsistent schedule (sometimes 1x week, sometimes 1x every other week, sometimes 1.5 mm, sometimes 2 mm). I have been at needling for about a year and have seen only moderate thickening (on the vertex, where I have concentrated the wounding effort).

Depth is less important than density. I think you'll see more improvement now with this, just do enough passes to get a couple hundred plus wounds per cm². Remember too that with the pen you are going deeper than with a roller. Even the 1.5mm dermaroller studies probably didn't go any deeper than 1mm.

 

[SimonC]

Has anyone tried Min 2.5% + dermarolling? Does it make any sense?

 

[the smoking baby]

Depth is less important than density. I think you'll see more improvement now with this, just do enough passes to get a couple hundred plus wounds per cm². Remember too that with the pen you are going deeper than with a roller. Even the 1.5mm dermaroller studies probably didn't go any deeper than 1mm.

Well, I'm hoping that the science behind quorum sensing is all that stands between me and the success of wounding. I'm skeptical, though, and don't see how density might be the difference maker. I've also been convincing myself that there is a tipping point when it comes to the positive impact of wounding. That is, you might wound for months and see little to no progress and then, voila, you reach a certain threshold and the follicles respond in a more robust manner. I am certainly not proficient in life sciences but I am hoping that wounding acts in an exponential manner rather than a linear one.

 

[the smoking baby]

Certainly, it seems, diffuse thinners respond better to wounding than those treating larger bald areas. And the Dhurat study showed pictures of good responders who were already blessed with some measure of volume in the treated areas. It would seem that the thinning areas bordering with terminal areas would respond first under this theory. Time, as usual in its inimitable fashion, will tell us the truth.

For those going with more needle density, lower depths and perhaps a greater frequency, it seems like we will have a better understanding as to whether Follica is a game-changer for many or just a smaller portion of those with hairloss.

edit: and, again, I'm skeptical that density is the only difference maker. frequency has to play a role; otherwise, @chen and others who rolled daily may not have responded in the way they did.

 

[cryingariver]

Well according to Follica density is the difference maker, and there is no tipping point, it works after one session if done correctly.

Here's a question: let's assume i have a 12 needle cartridge. (which i do ). and you use a circular motion in all balding areas as you needle, using the derma pen. it's constantly stamping the scalp. would that be the same as using a higher needle / denser cartridge? since you're moving it around more areas are being stamped as if you had a denser cartridge.

 

[the smoking baby]

Here's a question: let's assume i have a 12 needle cartridge. (which i do ). and you use a circular motion in all balding areas as you needle, using the derma pen. it's constantly stamping the scalp. would that be the same as using a higher needle / denser cartridge? since you're moving it around more areas are being stamped as if you had a denser cartridge.

In theory, yes. You are creating more wounds in a defined area the more times you pass over the same area with a roller/pen. I still think that the best response seen at the earliest time possible will be around the border areas between the thinning portions of the scalp and the more robust areas where the hair is terminal.

 

[pegasus2]

It doesn't matter how you get the wounding density as long as you get it. Less needles with more passes, or more needles with less passes. One is just easier than the other.

Growth always spreads from areas with more hair. It's called hair wave propagation. That's why diffuse thinners respond best to treatment.

 

[zeerax]

Yes but it is proven minoxidil does NOT go systemic.

its not proven

 

[HAIRGOAT]

I am copy-pasting my post from the Follica thread because it is relevant here as well.

Wound density for quorum sensing, as implied by the leaked Follica trial documents, would explain a lot of things. It would be a very elegant explanation for the success of @Somebody / Alex and of @chen . Why? Because they rolled mildly but daily. Even if they only had a needle density equivalent to that of a 9 or 10 needle cartridge of a typical electromechanical dermapen, they would still have a lot of simultaneously "active" wounds. Some wounds would be inflicted on day one, some others close by on day 2, even some more on day 3... thus, they subsequently increased the wound density in the areas they rolled. Depending on how quickly the tiny needle wounds closed, they would have a wound density increase of somewhere between factor 2 to 4.

Maybe very dense wounds bring skin back into a state where it thinks it needs to regenerate anew - and anew, depending on the area, will mean creation of new hair follicles.
This would be a parallel to BBQ guy, who - as we all know - had a case of complete skin regeneration which led to hair regrowth in the areas he burned.

Now some questions remain though:

1. Density: Is there a possibility that wound density can be too high? (For many common needling devices, there are cartridges of around 35 needles or even of more than 40 needles).
2. Depth: What is the right depth? We know from the PDFs of Follica's trial documents that Follica's first two trials were done successfully at 0.15 to 0.25 mm, which is much less than the Dhurat or Chinese study. Even though the depth was much lower there was still some neogenesis-like processes, though they did not complete and/or they were killed off again by the progression of Androgenetic Alopecia after 6 months. Now I'm wondering if there is harm in needling at greater depth than the Follica trials, given (a) for neogenesis, 0.25 mm seems to be sufficient but for destroying perifollicular fibrosis we would need to go to about 1.0 to 1.5 mm, and (b) that even at greater depths of up to 1.5 mm the upper/shallower layers of the skin would be wounded too, so I don't see why the neogenesis-inducing effects cannot be reached as well by needling deeper. And as I said we would have the added benefit of tackling perifollicular fibrosis as well.
   
3. Frequency: As neogenesis-like processes were still measurable at 3 months after needling (though a little weakened already) but killed off after 6 months, I guess the optimum needling frequency would be shorter than once ever 3 months - perhaps once every 2.

Perhaps some of you might remember, I tried needling every two weeks at 1.75 mm (w/ daily usage of minoxidil) for almost 6 months without any improvement at all. However, all my cartridges were 10 needle cartridges. I just ordered some 36 needle cartridges and will start experimenting again - probably in January 2020. My experiment will be according to the following regimen, though of course I accept suggestions for improvement:

• Frequency: once a month
• Depth: 1.5 mm
• Needle density: 36 needle head for TBPHP needling device
• Topical: minoxidil 5% once daily

Any thoughts on wound density or on my new experiment regimen?

Just tried a 12 pin derminator set to 0.5mm with repeated tight packed circling having tried 2.5mm to 1.5mm in past which i found painless to mildly painful at high speed for 4 to 8 passes,
0.5mm started out painless but became like burning totality different sensation its like comparing getting drunk and falling asleep in the sun to getting drunk and falling into a thorn bush.
In future i will use the the 0.25mm even tho it felt like nothing so i switched up to the 0.5mm which also felt like nothing at first but then came to feel quite a lot after 15mins of passes .

 

[baldlygoing]

I was using 1.5mm to 2.0mm with the derminator and the pain was pretty intense. I recently switched to .5mm daily and the pain minimal, kinda like a cat licking.

 

[baldlygoing]

I press pretty hard and have had the needles stick when needling in the 1.5-2mm range. It actually still bleeds in some areas at .5mm for me so I know I’m pressing pretty hard.

I never knew what the arrows on the display actually meant until now so I’ll pay attention to those next time

 

[cryingariver]

i use a derma pen daily, at .5mm. sometimes i use .75mm. once a week i'll use 1.5mm. i have noticed that my scalp doesn't get red. no matter how hard i push the device. if i push too hard, i draw blood. but it's very difficult for me to get a red scalp. i'm assuming this doesn't matter? or should i get a red scalp / erythema?

 

[HAIRGOAT]

I was using 1.5mm to 2.0mm with the derminator and the pain was pretty intense. I recently switched to .5mm daily and the pain minimal, kinda like a cat licking.

I find derminator at 2.5 less painful than roller at 0.5, but 0.5 derminator was painless up to 30 or so high speed passes then went crazy painful.was thinking of buying a wireless Dr pen to do light daily 1 or 2 pass sessions for absorption in between mega monthly/bi weekly derminator sessions

 

[baldlygoing]

Does anyone know where a good source for pure raspberry ketones and/or Cinnamaldehyde?

I tried a couple of labs in the US but they won’t sell to individuals. I see Bulk Supplements on Amazon sells ketones but would rather have medical grade.
I’ve had some crazy vellous activity on my hairline and would like to see if I can ratchet that up.

 

[cryingariver]

Erythema is the response to wounding, if you're not getting it than you're not wounding intensely enough. Instead of going deeper doing more passes. Slowly move the pen around in circles at the highest setting so that you you are getting at least 200 needle strikes for every square centimeter.

Noted! Thanks.

 

[fugged]

Month 10 crown update. Changed from roller to pen and definitely seeing better results

James, how deep do you set it and what sorts of difference do you see vs the roller? I don't seem to respond at least not amazingly , with the roller.

 

[cryingariver]

Erythema is the response to wounding, if you're not getting it then you're not wounding intensely enough. Instead of going deeper try doing more passes. Slowly move the pen around in circles at the highest setting so that you you are getting at least 200 needle strikes for every square centimeter.

ok, so i just did my nightly session. i did 0.5mm needle depth, and did a lot of passes. i also experimented on the side of my forehead to try something out. Observations: 1) my scalp still does not get red. 2) my scalp is left very sore however. and 3) the side of my forehead got VERY red, as if it got stamped; all i had to do there was 4 or 5 passes, and the side of my forehead gets red. but my scalp doesn't... i could make 30 passes and nothing. what am I doing wrong? my scalp is left very sore however.

 

[cryingariver]

You might have to go deeper than .5 on the scalp. I had to up it to 1mm to get red there. I did an experiment on half of my left temple where I did .25mm every night just for about 30 seconds. After about 8 days of that I had to stop because it was just too sore. I do think that about a week after I stopped I got a little extra regrowth on that half of the temple versus the other half.

hmmm. may up it to 1mm. seems that i have no choice. i seem to have tough skin up there.