What do we know about Russia?

[Bryan]

HHMMM.... Gee, if the American CIA was helping the mujaheddin, and Osama Bin Laden was helping them also.....don't you think they were on the same side? Therefore, one can deduce that Osama was once an ally to the US.

OF COURSE they were on the same side, at least in that superficial sense. But that certainly doesn't mean that they all had direct dealings with each other. As somebody else has pointed out in this thread, China, Pakistan, and Saudia Arabia were also supporting the mujahideen in their own special ways. Do you think that means that all the parties involved got together for a big tea party every weekend to make their plans together?

Again: CIA types say that they never had ANY connection whatsoever with Osama bin Laden.

 

[oni]

A long, detailed article on Wikipedia about the Afghan war during the 1980's states that Osama Bin Laden never had ANY connection at all with the American CIA forces who were arming the mujahideen.

:agree: stinger missiles anyone...................................

It was the PDPA fully supported by Russia vs The Mujahideen supported by ("covert" CIA).

 

[Bryan]

:agree: stinger missiles anyone.................

What's your point, oni? There's already been a great deal of discussion of Stinger missiles in this thread.

It was the PDPA fully supported by Russia vs The Mujahideen supported by ("covert" CIA).

Yes, but that's not the issue being discussed.

 

[ali777]

The US has always helped bail out the world. Look at WWI and WWII. The US stayed out as long as possible, but was eventually sucked in both times. Like 9/11, the US was attacked first.

And, after the US helps save the world, we are ridiculed for being "Imperialists" for staying and keeping the peace. US companies come in to rebuild war-torn countries that's called capitalism.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't your so called humanitarian companies that rebuild the "war torn" countries in return charge them shed lots of money? There was a documentary on the British telly not long ago, basically they were saying all the American contracts in Afghanistan are corrupt...

My understanding is that the US army operates like a service. The US army rescues Kuwait, and the Kuwaitis pay the whole cost of the military operation. US invades/rescues/liberates/whatever_you_call_it Iraq and the cost of the military operation is charged to the new Iraqi government. That's why the US army doesn't get involved in poor countries, there is nothing to gain.

As for the WWII: I think there is a very big case to argue that you actually came in only because it was becoming obvious that the war was gonna finish soon and you wanted to share some of the profits. After the war, the Marshall Plan was implemented which in effect made the US the superpower it is today.

 

[HughJass]

Without the US being there, a full-blown war over oil will break out in the middle east - and it won't just be Arabs fighting Arabs! Everybody will want to come get a "piece of the pie" that the US left for the taking.

do you honestly believe the US is 'keeping a lid on things' ?

do you have ANY idea how many people have died in Iraq and how many have become refugees?

The US has always helped bail out the world.

Whose responsible for the latest economic disaster?

Whose responsible for the mess in Iraq? Which countries have taken the most refugees from the Iraq war (America has taken the least) Why should countries like Sweden shoulder the burden of your clusterf*ck?

What a bunch of crap! I'm so sick and tired of people criticizing the United States. Then, people turn around and sh*t all over America, and burn our flag. Well :finger2: THEN!

People who criticize should take a hard look into the mirror - they aren't any better.

Does the humanitarian aid a nation provides cancel out all the violence and suffering it creates?

The US has bombed more countries than any other nation on Earth, fought proxy wars all over the world, stolen money from other countries, uses more natural resources per head than any other nation in the world, supported dictatorships, harbored terrorists and bullied it's way into free trade agreements that enslaved foreign workers just so you could enjoy the privelage of abundant, cheap goods and you behave as if somebody objecting to these things is more indicative of a supposed attitude problem than it is of wrong doing by the United States?

:shakehead:

The amount of sacrifice that the US makes to help the rest of the world is un-matched.

 

[Bryan]

No really, Ross Perot got two of HIS people out of Iran during the hostage crisis.

Yes, but you seem to be conflating those two events. Perot's rescue of his two captive employees was one thing, the hostage-taking in the American Embassy was quite another. Those were entirely unrelated events.

I heard from someone that he helped strike the deal - I guess they were wrong.

They _were_ wrong. Ross Perot had nothing to do with resolving the American Embassy hostage crisis.

The Iranians were scared SHITLESS of Ronald Reagan!

LOL!! I think Ronald Reagan was a non-entity to the Iranians. I doubt that they could have cared any less about him.

 

[Bryan]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't your so called humanitarian companies that rebuild the "war torn" countries in return charge them shed lots of money? There was a documentary on the British telly not long ago, basically they were saying all the American contracts in Afghanistan are corrupt...

Okay, I'll take the bait: how exactly are those contracts "corrupt"?

My understanding is that the US army operates like a service. The US army rescues Kuwait, and the Kuwaitis pay the whole cost of the military operation. US invades/rescues/liberates/whatever_you_call_it Iraq and the cost of the military operation is charged to the new Iraqi government. That's why the US army doesn't get involved in poor countries, there is nothing to gain.

LOL!! I guess Grenada was a RICH country? Did we go there to gain access to their rich treasure-trove of SPICES?

BTW, I'd also like to know exactly how we've "charged the cost" of the military operation to the Iraqi government. In actual fact, there's a lot of screaming from right-wing radio pundits here about how we have NOT done that; they're always asking why Iraq can't give us a discount on the price of their oil, especially after the ENORMOUS costs we've incurred to liberate them.

As for the WWII: I think there is a very big case to argue that you actually came in only because it was becoming obvious that the war was gonna finish soon and you wanted to share some of the profits.

Oh my god.... Ali777, this America-bashing is starting to get really corny.

 

[HughJass]

If you want me to say I'm a bad person, because I'm an American, forget it!

I have done nothing wrong.

The issue at hand is the US's activities over the world, not you. I don't know why you have to keep personalizing everything, perhaps you just have a massive ego.

The only person responsible for you feeling victimized is you.

What the f*ck do you want?

An apology for being an American? I don't think so! No apologies from me buddy! If you don't like America, then oh well. No sweat off my balls!

How about an objective review of your country's history for a start?

Nobody dislikes Americans because their American. They just consider it a slap in the face when they hear people like you talking about how you think your country is infallible, only ever dabbles in good deeds, never done anything wrong, it's everybody else that has the problem etc

but I know some you of nationalistic types are told from an early age that your country is the greatest thing since ya ma's chicken and only traitors criticize the homeland

I could care less what the world thinks of my country.

Then whats with the hissy fit?

 

[ali777]

OK, Mr. America hater, the US was attacked at Pearl Harbor by the Japanese who were not provoked in any way.

Oh, one more thing Mr. Knowitall: why does your avitar say, "aboard the Santa Maria," if you hate America so much? Seems to me you would hate Christopher Columbus as well - for discovering America that is. :whistle:

I don't hate America.. I just wanted to make you stop making comments about the rest of the world.. It looks like I failed and I made you feel even more patriotic now..

I have a fascination with exploration and the early discoveries. At the time everyone thought the likes of Columbus were crazy, but he set sail towards the big unknown.. That's why I admire him...

 

[ali777]

Oh my god.... Ali777, this America-bashing is starting to get really corny.

I agree with you there.. I was just playing devil's advocate to make dudemon see that some of his claims are unrealistic and that there is another side to the story... I think I overstepped the mark and I should shut up now :whistle:

 

[The Gardener]

Whose responsible for the latest economic disaster?

Although that is how history will probably record the events in the financial world, that's not really a fair assessment.

Yes there was a real estate bubble in the US, but it was one of MANY bubbles that have been created over the past decades, by institutions all over the world. It just so happens that the US real estate bubble was the FIRST bubble to pop, it was the trigger, but in actuality this trigger could have been ANY of the existing bubbles... the Baltic bubble, the Eastern Europe bubble, the China bubble, the Southern Europe and UK property bubble, etc.

Although US banks were the first to approach failure, European banks had actually engaged in FAR more speculative practices now that the light has been shined on their balance sheets. Basel reserve ratios are supposed to be in the neighborhood of 12 to 1, that is, 12 dollars lent to every 1 dollar in reserve. US banks, after they lifted their kimonos, were operating at a highly leveraged 20 or 30 to 1 ratio... but European banks have been operating at 50 to 60 to 1 ratios!

It might very well have been the Icelandic banking system, which has been operating like one giant hedge fund, that failed first... in which case, would you "blame" Iceland for "causing the economic crisis"?

The roots of this crisis can be found in overly speculative banking practices and bubbles that have been growing all over the developed economies, in many nations.

Why have these bubbles formed? There are many schools of thought here, but at the crux of the matter I believe that this crisis has its root cause in globalization. Before the advent of a lot of the new technology we now have, the global economy used to be a more loosely interconnected patchwork of local economies. Economies could be regulated more effectively by sovereign governments due to the function of size. But, as electronic interconnectivity became more immediate, and as the global transportation infrastructure became more efficient, you now have the ability to perform economic transactions REAL TIME between players on different sides of the planet. Capital markets shifted from nationally-based markets, to a global market.

So... you HAD, as an example, a US economy that had certain unique characteristics... unique behavior in terms of saving and spending, unique behavior in terms of regulatory framework, working conditions, wage and benefits expectations, and a unique set of pricing expectations. Alongside this, you had, as an example, a Chinese economy with its own unique characteristics, regulatory frameworks, and pricing. Same goes with the Middle Eastern economy, and the multitude of European economies.

What we have seen in the past few decades is the globalization of these economies. And as these economies were operating in completely different paradigms, as technology "makes the world smaller", you have a disorderly collision, and all manner of economic arbitrage going on. This has made it possible for people to make millions just playing the arbitrage! You have financial operations who make big money JUST playing the carry trade with the Yen, as an example... no economic value really being added, just taking advantage of imbalances between the characteristics of one market and another market, and earning profit on the arbitrage yield!

As banks are in competition with each other, they need to find excess capital and deploy it to places where capital is needed as a matter of survival.... and this process has gone global as well. The PROBLEM is that you soon reach a point where the arbitrage opportunities run short, as the markets themselves need to find a new GLOBAL equilibrium. This is the process we are in right now.

As an example, you have your average Chinese person from, say, a decade ago who was making $5 a week in a manufacturing plant, riding his bike to work every day. On the other hand, you have an American worker who is making $50,000 a year, plus health care, on a manufacturing line here in the US. As globalization intensifies, it becomes inevitable that there will be a reckoning of sorts between these two people's lives and lifestyles. This is not an orderly process, and has manifested itself in all sorts of bizarre imbalances and bubbles that need to be popped as time goes by.

 

[oni]

OK, Mr. America hater, the US was attacked at Pearl Harbor by the Japanese who were not provoked in any way. Then, the US went to war. If the US had not gone to Europe, Britain would have crumbled to the Nazis.

Firstly you are wrong...................................

You need to look back to the Japanese invasion of Manchuria, China in September 18th, 1931. :whistle:

Another thing you need to look at, Hitler declared war on the US a few days after Pearl Harbor!!!

The USA did not declare war on Germany!

It is quite plausible that the US would have only gone to war with Japan!

 

[ali777]

very civilised my friend :bravo:

 

[optimus prime]

owww...I wanted to know what you wrote...lol

 

[Bryan]

Another thing you need to look at, Hitler declared war on the US a few days after Pearl Harbor!!!

The USA did not declare war on Germany!

It is quite plausible that the US would have only gone to war with Japan!

Hey Oni! Pass me the toke, will ya? Whatever it is you're smoking must be some really good sh*t!

Germany declared war on the USA, after which we immediately returned the favor and declared war on Germany. Crack open your history book and take a look!

 

[HughJass]

I did the honors of deleting it myself before the Mods have to.

But, that's finger2 how I feel about people that bash America.

:firing:

Oh, another thing: I know my history quite well.

I can't stand people that try to put a spin on everything and tell half truths and lies just to make it agree with their biased and liberal viewpoint.

I don't believe any of the crap that any of you have posted as the "corrections" and counter-arguments to what I've said. Most of it is lies and spun half-truths. That's what liberals are good at - clouding the world's view of the truth.

NONE of you really have the slightest clue as what you are talking about anyways, and I will not waste any more of my time getting bashed by a bunch of know-it-all, egotistical, liberal nitwits that don't know their *** from a hole in the ground!

Talking about historical facts=America bashing

You're free to disprove any of the things that have been said. All you can just keep it personal and call anyone who doesn't agree with your worldview as a biased liberal idiot


:jackit:

 

[oni]

Germany declared war on the USA, after which we immediately returned the favor and declared war on Germany. Crack open your history book and take a look!

Well Bryan!

You did not have much choice, Germany declared war on you...................... :roll: what you going to do! sit back!

Like I said!

It is quite plausible that the US would have only gone to war with Japan!

The USA did not declare war on the Axis alliance!!! only Japan!

 

[The Gardener]

The US merchant marine fleet pumped Russia with boatloads of advanced manufacturing equipment, machine tools, trucks, industrial chemicals, and wheat. MANY an American transatlantic convoy marine lost their life trying to navigate the Atlantic only to get sunk by U-Boats.

WW2 was a team effort. So lets stop the pointless bickering and be civil about it. The bickering is not very becoming.

 

[Old Baldy]

Oni, the USA declared war on Germany and Italy on December 11, 1941. Germany did declare war first though. Why they did that has always been a mystery to us in the USA.

Maybe it was to show Japan that they were on their side until the end? Maybe it was to get "global" coverage for their agendas? Maybe Hitler just beat the USA "to the punch". Or, maybe Hitler was just plain nuts? Either way, it was the beginning of the end for Hitler and his allies IMHO.

Heck, it only took about one year after D-Day to conquer Germany. And about 1.5 years after we began fighting in Anzio, Italy.

 

[Bryan]

Well Bryan!

You did not have much choice, Germany declared war on you...................... :roll: what you going to do! sit back!

What does THAT have to do with anything? You made the following flat statement: "The USA did not declare war on Germany!", which is patently FALSE. Obviously we _did_ declare war on Germany.