What if I can endure hormonal sides?

read1516

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Hi. I read some threads in this site but could not get appropriate information for me because my situation is quite different from ordinary male pattern baldness patients. My sexual identity is quite androgynous and that means that while alopecia is really terrible thing for me, the feminizing effect and sexual sides of hormonal treatments are relatively less threatening to me. Of course, I don't want to get sides and I will stay with ordinary medications while they are enough to hold my hairs. I'm in about NW2 and started dutasteride and minoxidil recently. I'll wait for the results and I think the lost areas can be covered by hair transplant. However, if I lose far more hairs than now, I think some radical approach will be needed.

The point is, I want to know the medication that brings the least sides among the medications that are powerful enough to suppress hair loss. I know that any such medication will bring some nasty side effects. However, gyno, the most terrible side of hormonal changes seems to be avoided by breast surgery. If I remove most of my mammary glands, gyno is unlikely to occur. Feminizing effect and sexual sides are not good but better than alopecia. There can be other sides but I think if I plan appropriately and receive doctor's help, it'll be possible to avoid really terrible ones.

My questions are:
1. Is topical spironolactone not effective enough even with large doses?
2. Alfatradiol seems to be used only in very low concentration(0.025%, in Ell-cranell). Is there no way to use it in large amount? Is it not likely to be helpful?
3. Is there anything topically applied and powerful enough? What about topical progesterone or estrogen? I mean I'll use them in large doses. I want to know about topical ones first because they may minimize the sides that I have to endure.
4. If there's no topical one that is powerful enough, I have to think about oral spironolactone and estrogen. If I reduce 20~40% of my androgen by spironolactone and replace that amount with estrogen, will it be quite effective? I think I will not continually do this kind of thing, but do this occasionally for 2~3 months each time.

Of course if I do this kind of things, I will talk with a doctor about the effects of hormonal changes. However, I think it will be hard to know whether each medication will be effective on hair or not. That's the reason why I post this thread.
 

recedingyt

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Fairly certain that topical spironolactone is effective, but how effective is questionable at best. There's no doubt that oral is superior. Topical estrogen/progesterone will almost certainly go systemic, I think, so you're probably out of luck as far as that goes. Reducing your T by 20-40% is not likely to be enough to have an effect. Never heard of people getting serious results from oral spironolactone except in cases where the dosage is high enough to be comparable to a MTF HRT regimen.

Okay so I will preface what I'm about to say by saying I'm transgender and am currently on hormone replacement therapy. I take 200mg of spironolactone and 4mg of estradiol valerate every day. I think it has played a huge role in my results. That being said, I would strongly recommend against such methods unless you are truly sure you're fine with a VERY high chance of sexual side effects. I've got pretty significant breast development (very hard to hide) and my entire sexual identity has changed. I could not function very well in a masculine role now even if I wanted to.

You don't want to go through gyno surgery for the sake of a small amount of hair. Idk how old you are or how long you've been taking dutasteride/minoxidil, but a NW2 is probably a pretty good candidate for a possible full recovery. If you don't feel full regrowth is possible, a single hair transplant could probably take care of what you want to accomplish without risking sexual impairment and possibly causing irreversible sterility (not to mention many others). It's my understanding that a person who is not trans being exposed to the hormones of the opposite gender would most likely experience the same sort of dysphoria that a trans person without their hormones feels.
 

read1516

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recedingyt, thank you for your reply. I know that doing hormonal things just for NW2 is an insane idea. That can be covered just by hair transplant. I even didn't use dutasteride and minoxidil long enough to check their effects yet. I need to wait for the results. However, I'm 21 years old. To me, as my hair loss started early, it seems that it's quite probable that I will go further than NW2. I posted this thread because I wanted to be informed whether I can avoid that situation if I can endure sides to some extent. Hair loss is making me so worried and depressed everyday.

If reducing 20-40% of my androgen is not enough as you said, I'm out of luck, maybe. Is it really not enough even if what I want is not recovering lost hairs, but 'not losing more hairs'? What I'm thinking about is to stay with dutasteride and minoxidil and then move on to hormonal ones if my alopecia goes further. Lost areas will be covered by hair transplant and the problem is whether I can avoid further hair loss or not.
 

alyien

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I've taken 6mg of estradiol valerate daily, 300mg of androcur daily for months God knows what else. I'm not even transgender just very mentally ill.

None of this regrew anything. The only thing that did, high oral doses of finasteride or dutasteride. And it did it fast too, within a month really.

Id you're lucky you won't even get sides from it. I know I didn't until I really started messing with the other stuff.
 

recedingyt

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recedingyt, thank you for your reply. I know that doing hormonal things just for NW2 is an insane idea. That can be covered just by hair transplant. I even didn't use dutasteride and minoxidil long enough to check their effects yet. I need to wait for the results. However, I'm 21 years old. To me, as my hair loss started early, it seems that it's quite probable that I will go further than NW2. I posted this thread because I wanted to be informed whether I can avoid that situation if I can endure sides to some extent. Hair loss is making me so worried and depressed everyday.

If reducing 20-40% of my androgen is not enough as you said, I'm out of luck, maybe. Is it really not enough even if what I want is not recovering lost hairs, but 'not losing more hairs'? What I'm thinking about is to stay with dutasteride and minoxidil and then move on to hormonal ones if my alopecia goes further. Lost areas will be covered by hair transplant and the problem is whether I can avoid further hair loss or not.

Perhaps you should take it easy while you wait for dutasteride and minoxidil to work on you. You're pretty much planning on a nuclear solution when you're still very early into having to consider such extreme methods. I understand the anxiety that experiencing balding can cause very well, especially if you feel your identity is androgynous and would like to preserve a certain image of yourself. It's also true that lowering your androgen levels by 20-40% could help, I didn't mean to imply it is a hopeless thing to do. Plenty of guys on here have added spironolactone into their regimen (also counting topical) and seen good results. It's just that for a lot of guys, it isn't enough by itself to completely halt or reverse hair loss. Preventing future loss is largely taken care of by dutasteride. Dutasteride is very very effective as stopping balding. Everyone seems to maintain extremely well on it for the most part unless you have bad luck in the genetic lottery and are extremely susceptible to the effects of androgens. Honestly, I think that the thing most likely to actually cause significant regrowth is minoxidil. The rest might give you some regrowth, but in my experience minoxidil has been the much bigger player. I recently went through a big shed from stopping to use minoxidil in March (because I mistakenly thought I didn't need it to maintain my growth since my T/DHT are so low) and I hadn't realized just how much minoxidil was helping til those minoxidil dependent hairs fell out. I am about 3 weeks into using it again and I'm getting back what I lost, slowly (and then some it seems).. but I think maybe I placed too much credit to HRT and not enough to minoxidil originally.


I've taken 6mg of estradiol valerate daily, 300mg of androcur daily for months God knows what else. I'm not even transgender just very mentally ill.

None of this regrew anything. The only thing that did, high oral doses of finasteride or dutasteride. And it did it fast too, within a month really.

Id you're lucky you won't even get sides from it. I know I didn't until I really started messing with the other stuff.

May I ask how the hell you are alive?! 300mg of androcur is insanely high. You are DEFINITELY causing liver damage with a dose that high. Most people have to be careful with doses higher than 50-100mg of androcur as it is much much more powerful than spironolactone. One more question, which feel free to ignore or PM if you're more comfortable doing that but may I ask what makes you want to take female hormones if you are not transgender/how having hormones of a gender that you do not identity with makes you feel? I ask for personal reasons, not because I want to shame you for what you are doing. I think we should be free to be who we are if you're not hurting anyone else so while I dont understand it, I'm not judging.
 

read1516

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I think I'd better calm down and wait for the results. But still I want to get some information about topical spironolactone and topical progesterone/estiradiol. I can search about topical spironolactone, but it is quite hard to get appropriate information about topical progesterone/estiradiol. People just say no when systematic absorption is quite certain. I want to know whether they are quite effective in preventing further hair loss if I use them enduring sides to some extent. Anyone with an answer?
 

recedingyt

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I want to know whether they are quite effective in preventing further hair loss if I use them enduring sides to some extent. Anyone with an answer?

I covered that already. You will most likely eradicate any chances of you losing more hair by simply being on dutasteride. In the quite unlikely event your recession continues, a combination of spironolactone/estradiol will likely stop further hair loss entirely.
 

read1516

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Thank you, recedingyt. Your replies are quite helpful. But I'm confused about the effect of dutasteride in preventing hair loss. I read in many posts that while finasteride and dutasteride suppress hair loss for some amount of time, the balding process finally go on even I keep on the drug. According to my understanding, that's the reason why people are so worried about male pattern baldness. It doesn't seem like a 'genetic lottery', but a general tendency. My family history of male pattern baldness is not that terrible as there's no NW5~7 man among my close relatives, but I think I'm not in a safe zone, either.

Is the many people failing even with finasteride or dutasteride are those who started the drugs too late or didn't use drugs continually, or just genetically unlucky? Or, the thing is that the voices of the people failed with drugs are louder in online forums?

In addition, do you think we can be sure that topical spironolactone is effective to some extent? I don't expect a miracle but just want some decent effect in maintaining my hairs. I have no idea why it is not that popular like minoxidil if it is effective in suppressing scalp androgen. Is it's effectiveness quite limited like Ell-cranell? I heard that minoxidil is not that helpful in maintaining hairs since it only maintains hairs in the form of minoxidil-dependent hairs. Since my first interest is in long-term maineanance, I'm thinking about using minoxidil only 1 time per day and adding something else that is effective in suppressing DHT. Will topical spironolactone be better than minoxidil for this end?
 

sjbuk

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I have big doubts that dutasteride or finasteride are lifetime drugs without consequences. I would say if hair loss au natural is really unlikely as an option consider hairpieces or an hair transplant when you hit your 50s.
 

jps

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If you are taking (oral) dosages of spironolactone and estriadol, it is highly likely you will start to have some feminisation. These in are the medications generally used by transgender women. Even if the dosage is low, it's quite probable you will have some breast development, changes to your genitalia and erectile dysfunction. Also note that it's noted in the WPATH Standards of Care V7 (transgender health guidelines) that these on their own do not promote hair regrowth, but do stop hair loss at three months (on average) with dosages high enough to cause feminisation.

Spironolactone on its own can cause some feminisation by blocking testosterone production, however the effect is more marked with estriadol as well.

Be careful going down this path, because the physical changes are permanent.
 

read1516

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Thank you, jps. As I mentioned, for breast development, I'm thinking about a surgery to remove mammary glands before the hormones. I don't know exactly whether the surgery before gyno is possible or not, but it seems like a quite reasonable plan.

However, other sides are quite dangerous. I will definitely keep on dutasteride, but I don't know how much spironolactone should be added to my regimen to almost completely stop hair loss, and possibly thicken the existing hairs. My objective is basically to maintain my hairs thick and stable, not regrowing the lost ones. If I do not lose hairs aggressively in the next few years, the lost areas will be covered by hair transplant. If relatively low dosage of spironolactone is helpful to some extent, then I think I need to start early with that and avoid hormonal disasters by high doses. If I start it late, I will need to go with more drugs.
 
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