What is responsible for sex drive after puberty?

[drinkrum]

hence why i said POST puberty (it does a ton of stuff during puberty), and that dht's MAIN useful function is libido post puberty, and SOME pubic hair growth. I think we agree, but i also think you were putting words in my mouth.

The point is that DHT does not affect pubic hair growth during or post puberty. T is the main and, as far as medical research is concerned, only androgen at work here. In fact, DHT has been shown to be negatively correlated with pubic hair growth. That's right -- higher DHT might even mean less pubic hair.

Again, this has been shown by the pseudohermaphrodites of the Domincan Republic who lack the the 5-AR II isozyme. During puberty, when T levels spike, they grow normal pubic hair -- despite having low DHT.

D.

 

[drinkrum]

... if you went on a zero-fat, zero-cholesterol diet -- you'd probably notice that both your T and E2 levels would decrease a bit.

I don't get mentioned above and this thread together.

If you eat zero-fat meal, than (according to drinkrum) T level would decrease. In this case Chewbacca says DHT to increase.

Those of us who work out burn their body fats, but it is stipulated that their T level goes up. Then Chewbacca would say DHT to decrease.

What's the difference between eating zero-fat meal and burning fats in gym, if they give conflicting results?

A zero-fat meal is not healthy -- if you actually tried to do this, you would notice that a lot of body functions would go haywire. To be honest, I don't know what chewbaca says or where he gets his info. Your DHT is not going to increase or decrease substantially by working out or eating less fat than normal. The body tends to adjust to these things quite well.

D.

 

[chewbaca]

hence why i said POST puberty (it does a ton of stuff during puberty), and that dht's MAIN useful function is libido post puberty, and SOME pubic hair growth. I think we agree, but i also think you were putting words in my mouth.

The point is that DHT does not affect pubic hair growth during or post puberty. T is the main and, as far as medical research is concerned, only androgen at work here. In fact, DHT has been shown to be negatively correlated with pubic hair growth. That's right -- higher DHT might even mean less pubic hair.

Again, this has been shown by the pseudohermaphrodites of the Domincan Republic who lack the the 5-AR II isozyme. During puberty, when T levels spike, they grow normal pubic hair -- despite having low DHT.

D.

Didnt a recent New Zealand studtyon propecia stated Testes, not DHT is responsible for sex drive after puberty?

 

[Trent]

correct me if i'm wrong, its been while since we did the reproductive section, but isn't there still the type I reductase that can still convert T to DHT peripherally?

 

[chewbaca]

http://www.propecia.co.nz/things_to_know.html

Recent results from research conducted at the University of Bologna in Italy showed there was no statistical difference between men taking PROPECIA and men taking a placebo (dummy) pill in terms of erectile dysfunction, orgasmic function, sexual desire, intercourse satisfaction or overall sexual satisfaction.


The researchers, led by Professor Tosti took a fresh look at the incidence of sexual adverse effects in men taking PROPECIA. To evaluate the men they used the International Index of Erectile Dysfunction (IIEF) questionnaire, an established measure of male sexual function. The IIEF questionnaire has previously been used to measure the efficacy of v***** (sildenafil, Pfizer Laboratories) and other drugs used to treat erectile dysfunction.


They surveyed 236 men taking PROPECIA, and compared their answers with those of 236 men of similar age (18-47 years) who were not taking PROPECIA.


Statistical analysis showed no differences between scores obtained from the questionnaires, showing that the sexual and erectile function of men taking PROPECIA did not significantly differ from that of men the same age who were not taking PROPECIA.


Taking PROPECIA significantly lowers levels of DHT in serum, prostate and scalp, and also produces a slight increase in testosterone levels. As testosterone (but not DHT) is responsible for sexual function after puberty, administration of PROPECIA is not theoretically expected to induce sexual dysfunction.

 

[drinkrum]

hence why i said POST puberty (it does a ton of stuff during puberty), and that dht's MAIN useful function is libido post puberty, and SOME pubic hair growth. I think we agree, but i also think you were putting words in my mouth.

The point is that DHT does not affect pubic hair growth during or post puberty. T is the main and, as far as medical research is concerned, only androgen at work here. In fact, DHT has been shown to be negatively correlated with pubic hair growth. That's right -- higher DHT might even mean less pubic hair.

Again, this has been shown by the pseudohermaphrodites of the Domincan Republic who lack the the 5-AR II isozyme. During puberty, when T levels spike, they grow normal pubic hair -- despite having low DHT.

D.

Didnt a recent New Zealand studtyon propecia stated Testes, not DHT is responsible for sex drive after puberty?

By the way, chewbaca, the term you are looking for is "testosterone" not "testes". The testes are the glands that contain Leydig cells that produce testosterone.

The NZ study just confirms that we don't know with preciseness how androgens work or how the androgen receptor (AR) works. Some people claim T is the main androgen after puberty while others claim DHT still exerts a lot of effects on well-being, libido, etc. A lot of researchers believe that, in the absence or reduction in DHT, the AR adjusts to allow T to do DHT's deed. This type of regulation is still sparking a good debate in the medical community.

D.

 

[drinkrum]

correct me if i'm wrong, its been while since we did the reproductive section, but isn't there still the type I reductase that can still convert T to DHT peripherally?

Sure. But the the 5-AR enzyme (either Type I or II isozyme) does not have any prevalence in pubic hair. Don't confuse pubic hair with body hair -- body hair reacts positively to DHT. Remember that the sensitivity of hairs to androgens is to some extent controlled by the site-specific expression of the AR, 5-AR, and 17-beta-HSD. Apparently, the 5-AR is not expressed much or at all in pubic hair.

D.

 

[Guest]

Almost 9 months on finasteride for me and I could really do with a pubes-to-temples transplant.

 

[chewbaca]

hence why i said POST puberty (it does a ton of stuff during puberty), and that dht's MAIN useful function is libido post puberty, and SOME pubic hair growth. I think we agree, but i also think you were putting words in my mouth.

The point is that DHT does not affect pubic hair growth during or post puberty. T is the main and, as far as medical research is concerned, only androgen at work here. In fact, DHT has been shown to be negatively correlated with pubic hair growth. That's right -- higher DHT might even mean less pubic hair.

Again, this has been shown by the pseudohermaphrodites of the Domincan Republic who lack the the 5-AR II isozyme. During puberty, when T levels spike, they grow normal pubic hair -- despite having low DHT.

D.

Didnt a recent New Zealand studtyon propecia stated Testes, not DHT is responsible for sex drive after puberty?

By the way, chewbaca, the term you are looking for is "testosterone" not "testes". The testes are the glands that contain Leydig cells that produce testosterone.

The NZ study just confirms that we don't know with preciseness how androgens work or how the androgen receptor (AR) works. Some people claim T is the main androgen after puberty while others claim DHT still exerts a lot of effects on well-being, libido, etc. A lot of researchers believe that, in the absence or reduction in DHT, the AR adjusts to allow T to do DHT's deed. This type of regulation is still sparking a good debate in the medical community.

D.

IF DHT is not responsible for sex drive, why are people complaining about sexual side effects?

Is is possible that the sides were cause by brain reactions brought about by DHT inhibtion since DHT is found in the brain as well? COuld be likley. THis may point to show that the sexual sides may be psychological, induced in the brain. Remember the Brain the main sex organ.

 

[The Gardener]

BUT, I know for a fact that Colonel Mustard did it in the Observatory with the knife....

 

[Lizzad]

I do know that bodoybuilders that use a drug called "Proviron" as an anti-aromatose whilst on roids report that it gives tham a big boost in sex drive. Proviron contains Mesterolone which is an orally active 1-methylated DHT. ie. Proviron is oral dht.

 

[drinkrum]

IF DHT is not responsible for sex drive, why are people complaining about sexual side effects?

Is is possible that the sides were cause by brain reactions brought about by DHT inhibtion since DHT is found in the brain as well? COuld be likley. THis may point to show that the sexual sides may be psychological, induced in the brain. Remember the Brain the main sex organ.

Please read my posts carefully, chewbaca. I never said DHT is not responsible for sex drive (though others did). Hormones are very complicated little buggers and unfortunately medical science has not understood their complete pharmacology yet.

If I had to venture a guess, I would say, yes, DHT is related to sex drive. I would also say that I think the AR starts to use T when DHT is lacking in the system, which could be why some people experience side effects and then they dissipate. The action of the AR could be dependent on the individual.

Lizzad: You're very right. Proviron is renowned for its effects on libido. Also, you're right about it acting as an anti-aromatase -- DHT and E2 (estradiol) oppose each other. Supraphysiological levels of DHT result in a decrease in plasma E2.

D.

 

[chewbaca]

IF DHT is not responsible for sex drive, why are people complaining about sexual side effects?

Is is possible that the sides were cause by brain reactions brought about by DHT inhibtion since DHT is found in the brain as well? COuld be likley. THis may point to show that the sexual sides may be psychological, induced in the brain. Remember the Brain the main sex organ.

Please read my posts carefully, chewbaca. I never said DHT is not responsible for sex drive (though others did). Hormones are very complicated little buggers and unfortunately medical science has not understood their complete pharmacology yet.

If I had to venture a guess, I would say, yes, DHT is related to sex drive. I would also say that I think the AR starts to use T when DHT is lacking in the system, which could be why some people experience side effects and then they dissipate. The action of the AR could be dependent on the individual.

Lizzad: You're very right. Proviron is renowned for its effects on libido. Also, you're right about it acting as an anti-aromatase -- DHT and E2 (estradiol) oppose each other. Supraphysiological levels of DHT result in a decrease in plasma E2.

D.

Females with low sex drive are give T theraphy. Is it because females sex drive mechanisms are controlled differently from males?

BTW did scientific research conclude about the T in t he absence of DHT binding to Androgen receptors?

 

[drinkrum]

Keep in mind that estrogen is made from testosterone through the aromatase enzyme. Females are given T, just as males, to help them with libido issues, mood problems, etc. -- especially after menopause when their estrogen levels go down. Just like males, females gradually produce lower T levels as they age -- something like 1/2 the amount in their forties as in their twenties. T is, of course, one of the main androgens in the body. Both estrogen and DHT (the presence of either which helps to differentiate the baby at birth) are created from T.

About the AR regulation: As I said before, I don't think there is a conclusion, but most scientists believe the AR adapts. Research supports this notion. Do a search on MEDLINE. Here's a start: http://cancerres.aacrjournals.org/cgi/c ... /61/7/2892

That article talks about how the AR upregulates and downregulates when circulating hormone levels are low.

D.

 

[chewbaca]

So ir AR upregulates during finasteride usage, after u stop finasteride, will it stay there or downregulate to normal?

 

[drinkrum]

So ir AR upregulates during finasteride usage, after u stop finasteride, will it stay there or downregulate to normal?

It would return to normal probably in a couple weeks to a month; finasteride doesn't have a very long plasma half-life nor do its effects linger for ages (like they do with dutasteride, for instance). And like I said before, the body is very resilient.

D.

 

[chewbaca]

So ir AR upregulates during finasteride usage, after u stop finasteride, will it stay there or downregulate to normal?

It would return to normal probably in a couple weeks to a month; finasteride doesn't have a very long plasma half-life nor do its effects linger for ages (like they do with dutasteride, for instance). And like I said before, the body is very resilient.

D.

thia conclusion of yours- any studies to back it up?

 

[IfItsNotScottish]

DR, Question!

DR, You're posts are illuminating. Could you weigh in on the following? Whether psychological or not, I experienced sexual side effects while I was on 1mg of propecia a day for about 4 1/2 months (but with good hair results).

a) I can see how, sometimes, lack of interest, erratic libido (are these the same things?) or failure to maintain wood could be psychological, but could things like testicular ache and total lack of morning wood be similarly psychological? This strikes me as implausible, but then, I'm not much of a natch science guy.
b) I've been off propecia for almost a month now, and though things are definitely better -- occasional morning wood, much more interest, e.g. -- they're still not back to normal. If indeed propecia did affect my hormone levels, and that in turn caused (partially or entirely) the side effects, then should my hormone levels be back to normal by now? Unless things improve soon, I'm headed to the Doctor soon, but I'd be curious to know what you thought. Thanks for your posts.

33, Nwood 3.v, Revivogen, minoxidil, Nizoral

 

[drinkrum]

Re: DR, Question!

DR, You're posts are illuminating. Could you weigh in on the following? Whether psychological or not, I experienced sexual side effects while I was on 1mg of propecia a day for about 4 1/2 months (but with good hair results).

a) I can see how, sometimes, lack of interest, erratic libido (are these the same things?) or failure to maintain wood could be psychological, but could things like testicular ache and total lack of morning wood be similarly psychological? This strikes me as implausible, but then, I'm not much of a natch science guy.
b) I've been off propecia for almost a month now, and though things are definitely better -- occasional morning wood, much more interest, e.g. -- they're still not back to normal. If indeed propecia did affect my hormone levels, and that in turn caused (partially or entirely) the side effects, then should my hormone levels be back to normal by now? Unless things improve soon, I'm headed to the Doctor soon, but I'd be curious to know what you thought. Thanks for your posts.

33, Nwood 3.v, Revivogen, minoxidil, Nizoral

Definitely go to a good endocrinologist. But try giving your body some more time -- one month may not be enough. Testicular ache is a noted side effect from finasteride; in fact, I remember getting it about a couple weeks into the drug and then it subsided and hasn't returned. Morning wood is another side effect. I don't get morning wood anymore. However, I normally have sex everyday and/or masturbate a couple times to boot.

If in a month, your side effects still remain, get your blood tested. Make sure they test for DHT, free T, and E2. LH, FSH, and total T would be a good idea as well.

D.

 

[asdf13]

Actually, if you read any studies on hormone changes in aging males,one of the most solid theories (and most widely accepted) is that DHT is produced in our bodies to compensate for lagging testosterone levels as we age - What little test we have, seems to be converted to the more potent and active DHT, to compensate for the decrease in test.Also,there are actual sudies showing a direct relationsip between reduced activity in the leydig cells in the testes(the area in the testes that produce testosterone) and increased 5 ar and DHT. If the level of test in your body stays at "normal" levels,it is postulated that your body has less, or even no need to produce DHT in the first place

I'm not sure I understand... If someone took a testosterone injections every week (or whatever the norm is, I don't know) DHT/ 5AR wouldn't be produced?

If that's correct, wouldn't that stop baldness?