What Topical DHT blockers can i try?

[CCS]

Hi CCS, new here. Any idea where to buy SOD capsules?

Thanks in advance

It often is sold at the same sites that sell green tea extract, but you many have to shop around a bit.

 

[Harie]

Hi CCS, new here. Any idea where to buy SOD capsules?

Thanks in advance

http://www.vitacost.com/SourceNaturalsS ... eDismutase

Cheapest per serving I've found.

 

[dht4ever]

Thanks Harrie & CCS, will shop around for SODs soon!

 

[bubka]

whats wrong Harie, is the marijuana not enough?

 

[CCS]

I did some more searching. The SOD capsules are not the tri-amino complex, it seems.
I think SOD is just a general term. So no 2.5% SOD for us. Just the diluted stuff that might not work, since the 1.25% did not work.

 

[iamnaked]

Ok, fair play I'm wrong. A cursory examination of the different types of bonds (banana bonds wtf?) made my head heart so I'm sure Dr. Proctor is right. What confuses me slightly is if copper ions can help with hairloss why he didn't use them. Copper salts are relatively easy to come by.

 

[Harie]

whats wrong Harie, is the marijuana not enough?

Nope, it gave me too much hair, and made me almost impossible for the opposite sex to resist, so I stopped using it.

 

[CCS]

What confuses me slightly is if copper ions can help with hairloss why he didn't use them. Copper salts are relatively easy to come by.

I'm not convinced straight copper ions help hair. Sounds just as unlikely as azelaic acid. Is there evidence or is this hear say because copper peptides work?

 

[Old Baldy]

Here's a pretty good article on copper:

http://216.109.125.130/search/cache?ei= ... 1&.intl=us

 

[Bryan]

Ok, fair play I'm wrong. A cursory examination of the different types of bonds (banana bonds wtf?) made my head heart so I'm sure Dr. Proctor is right. What confuses me slightly is if copper ions can help with hairloss why he didn't use them. Copper salts are relatively easy to come by.

Because as I said somewhere else (don't remember if it was in this thread or in another one), applying copper ions to your scalp would be VERY toxic and VERY corrosive. He would never do that, trust me.

Bryan

 

[CCS]

I guess that makes it dangerous for me to try making my own, unless I know exactly what I'm doing and use an excess of protein. I still don't know how I could the amino acids to bond in groups of three and all in the right order. That sounds like a very advanced method, though it might be simple once someone knows how to do it.

 

[CCS]

the article old baldy posted shows very clearly that copper supplementation won't help hair loss. It does not increase levels of copper super oxide. The beans and peanuts I eat are high in copper and protein and anti-oxidants (some beans are as good as blue berries), so I think I'll be fine.

If I can just get my hands on some powdered Copper SOD, and make the 2.5% stuff in the FDA trial.

Do you think a vet supply store would have it? That is where it was discovered. It might be cheaper there. Anyone know what it would be called, or have any articles on that discovery?

 

[Bryan]

What confuses me slightly is if copper ions can help with hairloss why he didn't use them. Copper salts are relatively easy to come by.

I'm not convinced straight copper ions help hair. Sounds just as unlikely as azelaic acid. Is there evidence or is this hear say because copper peptides work?

There is some evidence that copper ions help stimulate hair growth, but they're too toxic. Here's some information from the study "Evaluation of Telogen Hair Follicle Stimulation Using an In Vivo Model: Results with Peptide-Copper Complexes", Trachy et al, from the book "Dermatologic Research Techniques", 1996.

They injected the following substances into mice, and observed their hair growth afterwards:

PC1234: alanyl-histidyl-lysine copper complex
PC1031: glycyl-histidyl-lysyl-valyl-phenylalanyl-valine copper complex
PC1024: glycyl-glycyl-histidyl-lysine copper complex
PC1048: alanyl-histidyl-lysine
PC1154: copper acetate

Some selected passages from the "Test Results and Presentation of Data" section:

Results from the intradermal injection study are provided in Table 2. The first indication of a positive hair growth response was typically seen between 10 and 14 days after injection of the test article. In this study, the peptide-copper complexes PC1234 (a tripeptide copper complex) and PC1031 (a hexapeptide copper complex) were effective promoters of hair growth. Dose-dependent responses were seen in the response rate and in the area of hair growth...

PC1154 (copper acetate) was tested to determine if the hair growth activity was due only to the copper moiety of the complexes. Intradermal injection of PC1154 caused extensive tissue damage at the doses tested (comparable to the copper content of the PC1234 doses)....

The contribution of the peptide moiety to the hair growth activity was tested with two additional compounds. The tetrapeptide-copper complex, PC1024, a peptide-copper complex of similar structure to the active complexes, and the tripeptide compound, PC1048 (the peptide moiety of the PC1234 complex, AHK) and the saline vehicle were all found to be inactive at the doses tested.

Comparison of relative hair growth activity of these compounds on study day 21 is shown in Figure 3. PC1031 was the most potent compound in this model via injection. The PC1154 produced a large amount of irritation and ulceration at the injection site... Both PC1031 and PC1234 were more potent than PC1154 at the highest dose, showing a clear difference in activity of the peptide-copper complex when compared to copper alone.

And here are some selected comments from the "Interpretation of the Results" section at the end of the study:

1. PC1234 and PC1031 are potent stimulators of the transition of telogen follicles to anagen follicles when used intradermally or topically. Minoxidil treatment was also effective when used topically...

2. Differences in the potency of peptide-copper complexes could be observed in the intradermal injection model. While both PC1234 and PC1031 showed efficacy in this model, another peptide-copper complex of similar structure (PC1024) was ineffective.

3. Both copper acetate (PC1154) and a peptide without copper (PC1048) produced unacceptable results in the injection model. While PC1154 caused extensive local irritation and ulceration, PC1048 showed no hair growth activity. These results, combined with the inactivity of PC1024, show that the activity of peptide-copper complexes is dependent upon both the copper component and the proper peptide sequence. The peptide may serve to deliver the copper to the site of action in a less toxic manner and allow use of pharmacologically active doses without the irritation associated with copper salts.

4. The hexapeptide-copper complex (PC1031), while more potent when administered intradermally, is less potent when used topically than the tripeptide-copper complex PC1234.

I'll add a comment or two of my own here: I think it's obvious now why I've always been uncertain about which product is better, Folligen or Tricomin. Even though there's no doubt that Folligen has much more copper-peptide than Tricomin, nevertheless, point number 3 above makes clear that the specific peptide sequence is very very important. Some peptides work much better than others, in other words. So the ancient question of whether a large number of RANDOMLY-PRODUCED peptides (Folligen) is better or worse than a smaller number of the SPECIFICALLY-DESIGNED and hand-picked peptide found in Tricomin is anybody's guess.

I'm assuming that PC1234 is the peptide that's used in Tricomin.

Bryan

 

[CCS]

http://www.hairlosshelp.com/forums/mess ... eadid=8672

it is the same peptide, if your old post is right.

I read on another site though that the 1.25% did nothing. It was a german copy of the study, but I could see the percentages.

 

[mvpsoft]

So the ancient question of whether a large number of RANDOMLY-PRODUCED peptides (Folligen) is better or worse than a smaller number of the SPECIFICALLY-DESIGNED and hand-picked peptide found in Tricomin is anybody's guess.

I'm assuming that PC1234 is the peptide that's used in Tricomin.

What do you mean by "randomly produced" in this context? That would appear to mean that Pickart has no idea which peptides might or might not work, he simply threw in a bunch of them in case one of them works. Is that your understanding of how Folligen was developed?

 

[Bryan]

So the ancient question of whether a large number of RANDOMLY-PRODUCED peptides (Folligen) is better or worse than a smaller number of the SPECIFICALLY-DESIGNED and hand-picked peptide found in Tricomin is anybody's guess.

I'm assuming that PC1234 is the peptide that's used in Tricomin.

What do you mean by "randomly produced" in this context? That would appear to mean that Pickart has no idea which peptides might or might not work, he simply threw in a bunch of them in case one of them works. Is that your understanding of how Folligen was developed?

It means that there's no way to predict what specific copper-peptides are going to be formed when Pickart makes his Folligen. All he does is throw some copper salt in with some hydrolyzed (soy?) protein, and the copper ions hook-up with random peptides. There will be a huge number of possible permutations. It's a totally random process.

Bryan

 

[mvpsoft]

Well, I posted my questions and your response Bryan verbatim on Skin Biology's website and asked Pickart to comment. Here's what he said:

I invented the hair growth peptides that are in Tricomin and GraftCyte.

US 5,550,183 Metal-peptide compositions and methods for stimulating hair growth.
US 5,214,032 New glycyl-histidyl-lysyl copper compounds used in stimulating hair growth.
US 5,177,061 Compositions for stimulating hair growth containing cupric complexes of peptide derivatives including. glycyl-l- histidyl-l-lysine n-octyl ester.
US 5,120,831 New metal peptide complexes and derivatives used for stimulating growth of hair in warm-blooded animals, especially humans.

Folligen was an accident. During wound healing, proteolytic breakdown of proteins create a blizzard of millions of different small peptides. I thought that, while these peptides may have a low affinity for copper 2 and could not obtain copper 2 in the body, if I added copper 2 to these varied peptides maybe they would heal wounds. So I used a mixture of small peptide from soy protein digests and added copper 2 and found these had powerful healing actions.

Along with this, I found that this mixture of small peptides and copper 2 also had a more powerful effect on hair growth than I ever observed with the small peptides. This led to Folligen.

US 5,554,375 Tissue protective and regenerative compositions

The link between hair growth and skin repair is that the new cells for skin repair come from enlarged hair follicles. And enlarged hair follicles produce more hair.

So if I understand correctly what he's claiming, it is that the "blizzard" of peptides with CU added grow more hair than any single peptide, including GKU-CU.