Where is everyone from?

[Nene]

In the United States, the crime rate in the 40 States in Which Firearm carry is legal, is NO HIGHER THAN THE CRIME RATE IN THE OTHER STATES WHERE IT IS BANNED!!!!!! Studies have demonstrated that Gun Control does not reduce crime!

[youtube:1jed1dkz]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wxwp60GP7Wg[/youtube:1jed1dkz]

I just watched this. It explains how crime went up in DC after there was a ban placed on guns. However DC is tiny and is basically part of Virgina, which doesn't ban guns as you can see from the map they show with with the gun friendly states highlitghted.

 

[s.a.f]

I have seen and fired an illegal pistol as a teenager on the street no less. I was even more of an idiot as a child than I am now I can tell you. It was fun because it was naughty and awsomely powerfull and particlularly in the uk it is bad *** to be firing guns on the street so God damn thats what I wanted. Are you getting my jist?

So teenagers in the UK have easy access to guns, well it sounds like gun control works great, it's not like a criminal could buy one on the streets or anything. :jackit:

I have never even seen a gun let alone been involved in an incident involving one, nor has anyone I know.
So your 'claim' of crimals and teenagers getting easy access to them could'nt be further from the truth. Just look at the statistics:

Gun Deaths - International Comparisons
Gun deaths per 100,000 population (for the year indicated):

Homicide Suicide Other (inc Accident)

USA 3.98 5.92 0.36
Italy 0.81 1.1 0.07
Switzerland 0.50 5.8 0.10
Canada 0.4 2.0 0.04
Finland 0.35 4.45 0.10
Australia 0.24 1.34 0.10
France 0.21 3.4 0.49
England/Wales 0.15 0.2 0.03
Scotland 0.06 0.2 0.02
Japan 0.02 0.04 0

Data taken from Cukier and Sidel (2006) The Global Gun Epidemic

:jackit: :jackit: :jackit: :jackit: :jackit:

 

[The Gardener]

One interesting little tidbit. In a past discussion on this issue in which I was participating a little more actively, in doing some research I came across a little table that showed that gun ownership rates in Canada were similar to the US... and gun ownership rates in Switzerland were MUCH higher than the US.

Yet, the US seems to have the overwhelming number of gun related deaths?

I don't blame the gun crime rate so much on prevalent gun ownership, but rather, I blame it on the sickness of our national society.

 

[pleo]

Wow, that thread's gone off on a tangent.

Since Switzerland's gun policy has been brought up, I thought that some might perhaps be interested in a Swiss person's take on it.

The video linked in one of the early posts is factual. There is a draft and almost every draftee is issued a gun. However, that gun has to be stored at home; it can't be carried around.

The mandatory draft and the high number of arms stored at home might create the impression that weapons and the military in general are deeply rooted in the general population. This is not true in my opinion; quite the contrary. I'd like to mention a few things to put things into perspective.

For one thing, not every male is drafted. Actually, drafting rates have been dropping. I'd say around 30-40% of eligible males either elect not to do service (this is possible; they have to do civil service instead) or are deemed unfit.

Second, in general, military service is loathed here. Same goes for the mandatory shooting practices. In fact, there have been at least two ballots on completely abolishing the military. In 1986, 35.6% voted in favor of it; in 2001, 21%. I can assure you, the attitude of the man portrayed in the clip is not representative.

Third, I have not met a single person in my life carrying a gun as a civilian. I've read that the laws of obtaining a gun for private use are relatively permissive. Let me tell you though, if you walk around armed, you'll be considered a complete lunatic.

Still, there is a high number of weapons around - true. However, they are usually rotting in some far corner of the house; no one in their right mind thinks of using them. And trust me, criminals know exactly that the likelihood of meeting armed resistance is pretty much zero. Weapons aren't what is keeping the crime rate low here.

The main reason for the low crime rate here is prosperity; no one has to go hungry. If you took away all the people's weapons, things would stay the same, I'd bet you. Well, suicide rates might drop, perhaps (we suck in that department), although I don't think so. Guns, even though they're numerous, simply don't play a role in everyday life. And pretty much no one cares about the right to bear arms. Our safeguard against oppression is direct democracy. This means that the population can vote on what becomes law and what doesn't.

The fact that the U.S. has high crime rates for an industrialized country as opposed to Switzerland and both have lenient gun laws - doesn't that indicate that guns don't have much of an impact?

Also, I don't think guns help keep a power-hungry government at bay in a modern society; the political system, the education of the general public and the mentality do.

Long story short: I really don't think that Switzerland proves the usefulness of guns as a means to curb crime.

Greetings
pleo

 

[The Gardener]

I'll see Gardener's white trash spectacular and raise him another-

Australia! F$&K YEAH!

 

[somone uk]

the US constitution is f***ed up enough to kick out bill Clinton after serving the country with absolute distinction...

HUH?? Bill Clinton wasn't "kicked out". He completely finished his full Presidential term.

that's what i mean, it denied him the right to serve a third and forth and fifth term
there is no real justification for the constitution to state that one can only serve 2 terms

 

[Nene]

[quote="somone uk":2ltkjp5q]the US constitution is f***ed up enough to kick out bill Clinton after serving the country with absolute distinction...

HUH?? Bill Clinton wasn't "kicked out". He completely finished his full Presidential term.

that's what i mean, it denied him the right to serve a third and forth and fifth term
there is no real justification for the constitution to state that one can only serve 2 terms[/quote:2ltkjp5q]

No, our Presidents are only allowed to serve two terms for the past 50 years or so. He was impeached though, it just means he was brought up on charges. They tried to kick him out for that BS.

 

[Nene]

One interesting little tidbit. In a past discussion on this issue in which I was participating a little more actively, in doing some research I came across a little table that showed that gun ownership rates in Canada were similar to the US... and gun ownership rates in Switzerland were MUCH higher than the US.

Yet, the US seems to have the overwhelming number of gun related deaths?

I don't blame the gun crime rate so much on prevalent gun ownership, but rather, I blame it on the sickness of our national society.

I think there is some truth in that Gardener. Part of the reason for so much gun violence runs deeper than guns just being more prevalent. If you've ever seen Bowling for Columbine, Michael Moore has his own theory about why this is. However, I certainly don't think making guns harder to come by would be a bad thing!

 

[s.a.f]

LOL and for every one of those 'householder shoots burglar' vids you could find 500 examples of an innocent person being killed by some lunatic with a gun!!!!!!

When are you going to wake up, your pro gun vids are not part of the arguement and the statistcs on that are clear!!!!!

You really think its a ok trade off - 100's of people being killed in exchange for 1 burglar being shot?

 

[hawkeye638]

It is difficult to argue with someone who believes that it is morally superior to allow themselves to be violently attacked, raped, murdered or worse yet, to allow this fate to befall their family then if they were to take steps to protect themselves and their family.

In the mythical world of unicorns and rainbows I suppose we can vision a world with no guns whatsoever but that is not going to happen here in the real world. The simple fact is that as long as the bad guys have guns I will also have one...or two....or three...etc.

It is a proven fact, at least here in the US, that when gun laws ease the rates of violent crime goes down. The majority of mass shootings happen in "gun free" safe zones such as schools and other locations where the bad guy knows that no one will be allowed to be armed to defend themselves. Even the shootings at Fort Hood was in a location where the victims were not allowed to be armed.

Lastly, it does not take a rocket scientist to realize that since guns used in crimes in Washington DC have all come from outside DC limits because at the time of DC vs Heller THERE WAS ONLY ONE LICENSED FIREARMS DEALER IN DC. Wow, who would have figured.

 

[HughJass]

It is difficult to argue with someone who believes that it is morally superior to allow themselves to be violently attacked, raped, murdered or worse yet, to allow this fate to befall their family then if they were to take steps to protect themselves and their family.

In the mythical world of unicorns and rainbows I suppose we can vision a world with no guns whatsoever but that is not going to happen here in the real world.

Indeed, so the only logical approach to take is one that ensures criminals can have even easier access to guns, right?

you know whats more difficult than argueing with somebody who likes to get on their moral high horse? arguing with somebody who continally bullshits himself....

why don't you just admit that the real reason you want a gun is because you like them. It can't be any other reason; not even an off the shelf NRA type such as yourself who has obviously been programmed from the cradle could actually believe the arguments you're putting across.


lol!

 

[The Gardener]

Hahahaha....

GREAT strawman cartoon, Aussieavodart. Fricking brilliant.

Hope you don't mind if I clip it and use it in some other discussion forums that I participate in.

 

[somone uk]

http://stagevu.com/video/djadbgnoxdsy :whistle: :whistle:

 

[s.a.f]

You know what, my eyes have been opened the NRA crew are spot on. One only has to think of cases like Baby P or Madeline Mcann if only these tots had been armed they would have been able to adequatley defend themselves.
The solution is obvious free hand guns (and hey why not grenade launchers awell) to all British citizens soon the crime rates will be non existant and think of the money the NHS would undoubatly save.

You only have to wonder what without all these armed U.S citizens protecting themselves:
Lets do the maths here 60 x lives saved by guns per life taken x approx 30,000 gun deaths per year = 1800000 lives per year that would be lost without guns.

Wow imagine how many billions the UK population would be by now if we could arm ourselves freely like the Americans can.

 

[oni]

Security blanket anyone.......................................................... :whistle:

 

[timbo]

Indeed, so the only logical approach to take is one that ensures criminals can have even easier access to guns, right?

I don't know how it works in Australia (or wherever you reside). But convicted felons cannot purchase guns in the U.S. So your argument is futile here. I don't know where you get the notion that criminals would have easier access to guns if they were sold legally.

 

[somone uk]

Indeed, so the only logical approach to take is one that ensures criminals can have even easier access to guns, right?

I don't know how it works in Australia (or wherever you reside). But convicted felons cannot purchase guns in the U.S. So your argument is futile here. I don't know where you get the notion that criminals would have easier access to guns if they were sold legally.

because all the best criminals get caught :whistle:

 

[HughJass]

Hahahaha....

GREAT strawman cartoon, Aussieavodart. Fricking brilliant.

Hope you don't mind if I clip it and use it in some other discussion forums that I participate in.

clip away!


I wish i could take credit for drawing it

 

[timbo]

Indeed, so the only logical approach to take is one that ensures criminals can have even easier access to guns, right?

I don't know how it works in Australia (or wherever you reside). But convicted felons cannot purchase guns in the U.S. So your argument is futile here. I don't know where you get the notion that criminals would have easier access to guns if they were sold legally.

because all the best criminals get caught :whistle:

That is a ridiculous argument! Guns are going to be around whether they are sold legally in a "gun shop" or not.

 

[Smooth]

Mmm.... if your base argument is : less guns = less crime then consider this, you can still kill a man with a knife, hammer, ax, rock, even with a pencil or your bare hands... so lets stop selling these too... :whistle: