Who Would Help Fund A Kerastem Therapy?

[wilfred]

The weird thing for me is that if it were a scam, why wouldn't they market it more? It was us that searched it out for clinics that provided the treatment. Clinics didn't advertise it on their websites. Anyway, I think they haven't fully figured it out yet. Maybe there's some merit with the science but for right now, the protocol from Belgrade it doesn't seem to work at all.

 

[hairblues]

The weird thing for me is that if it were a scam, why wouldn't they market it more? It was us that searched it out for clinics that provided the treatment. Clinics didn't advertise it on their websites. Anyway, I think they haven't fully figured it out yet. Maybe there's some merit with the science but for right now, the protocol from Belgrade it doesn't seem to work at all.

I don't think its a full on scam but i think they are deliberately misleading by saying 30% in almost all patients or whatever it was they advertised on the website.

 

[jayeffbee]

I don't think its a full on scam but i think they are deliberately misleading by saying 30% in almost all patients or whatever it was they advertised on the website.

Well, its a gray area. The USA site is in regards to their research still undergoing trials, I am guessing nothing about it could be called 'marketing'. The clinic only ever quoted "most people see 10-30% regrowth" which is a huge range, but at no point was any of the results guaranteed.

I am not convinced it is a scam, I AM convinced that, unfortunately, our little forum sample size is not scientific at all. An actual trial usually involves hundreds if not a few thousand people doing blind tests. We are a sample size of what, 6-8 with a history of various hair treatment attempts?

At the end of the day, that is kind of the reality we are dealing with. They aren't claiming anything for patients, and the clinics were quite clear to say this to us. They had only just started performing it, and hair results can take 1-2 years.

The only unfortunate thing would be if the treatments varied by clinic, which I don't think we've had any evidence of and likely won't be able to prove in any way.

US trials are still very early though, as in they are testing it on people's ARM hair, not even their scalps. Maybe the trial will go bust, and that will be the "scam" that a lot of people went for it in other locations in the meantime. I don't necessarily think the company itself would be going through the trial in an effort to specifically fool people into buying into it as legit, just so a handful of private practices can do a small amount of procedure. I think I was like, #30 something in Belgrade over 1-2 years? If the research costs $300 million so far, that isn't going to make much of a dent recuperating anything (if Kerastem themselves even get much of the procedure money)

Also, the 30% quote on the site is a sample size of like 7 people… again, not scientific at all. Just preliminary and hopeful. Maybe that is shady given how easy it is to get our hopes up, but I mean… they're trying to hype it up and get investment to make it a product. That's how it works.

 

[Swoop]

I agree with hairblues though this is probably like PRP.

I said this on page 13 when buckthorn asked what I think of this:

Same as PRP and Histogen for me buckthorn.

Hopefully Histogen won't fall into the same category. But the likelihood is there that PRP, Kerastem and Histogen are pretty much the same.

For example

Take N=100 and you maybe have 10-20 guys that have some visual cosmetic benefit, rest none.

It's just hair follicle cycle alteration imo.

 

[Stupidon]

I agree with hairblues though this is probably like PRP.

I said this on page 13 when buckthorn asked what I think of this:

Hopefully Histogen won't fall into the same category. But the likelihood is there that PRP, Kerastem and Histogen are pretty much the same.

For example

Take N=100 and you maybe have 10-20 guys that have some visual cosmetic benefit, rest none.

It's just hair follicle cycle alteration imo.

I just spoke with the director of the Geneva clinic and you are absolutely right.

The kerastem information were misleading but you cannot blame a company for their marketing which is not different at all to all the other players. Of course some people will answer very well to the treatment, but she repeated me several time: "we don't stop time". The consensus is people can expect a slowdown of the loss as well as a boost of the growth, for how long and to which level still need to be determined given they have only offered the treatment since 2 years.

I will be happy to share my pics for comparison when I get them but I can already share my thoughts: If you have the money, you can try the bet and hopefully you will stay at baseline for a couple of years, otherwise don't waste your money until you have solid data which won't happen before 10 years. I did it and I don't have any regret, I'm very curious to see my hair count. The only available reliable option is still finasteride and it will most likely stay like this for a few more years. Brotzu might help if they make it, but some people will clearly be disappointed if they don't manage their expectations.

 

[Swoop]

@Stupidon

Amen, may god Tsuji solve this.

 

[Felipe302]

Swoop, i know you don't really believe in the Brotzu lotion being a cure or returning 5 years of loss. But do you think it could be a replacement to finasteride without sides? Something like what CB0301 should be?

 

[Stupidon]

@Stupidon

Amen, may god Tsuji solve this.

I believe you will have to stay 4/5 weeks in Japan because of the cells culture. Same for Shiseido and I'm even not sure it will maintain finasteride hair.

From a practical point of view, I'm running for L'oréal as it seems difficult for me to spend one month in Japan to see our old friend Tsuji every time the Androgenetic Alopecia is progressing further.

 

[hairblues]

Then what the f*** are you selling? Either you're "stopping time" - i.e., maintaining - or you're going back in time - i.e. growing hair. If you can't do either, then what the f*** are you doing?



The "consensus?" They need a "consensus" to determine what exactly is going to happen?



"If you have the money, you can try the bet." Hey, I have a special potion that "won't stop time," but it will do something to your hair. I'll sell it to you, and it's a steal at half the price of Karestem! What do you have to lose? Try the bet!

Sorry, but when it comes to medical intervention, I don't "bet" - a professional tells me what is going to happen based on the data they have collected through double-blind trials, which are done to ensure they - at the very least - don't hurt me, and - at the very most and as expected - help me.

This sh*t is such a ridiculous scam, and it's disgusting that these countries are allowing it to take place.

Yeah it's a bit sketchy and it's really involved with the lipo etc.
I would try PRP before doing this.
PRP is a gamble also but less expensive and less invasive one and more convenient.

If new information comes about i would be open to it.
Also want to thank the people that did actually go get it done..Im basing my thoughts on their experiences both good and bad.

 

[Stupidon]

Why are you losing your nerve and spreading some frustration?

Then what the f*** are you selling? Either you're "stopping time" - i.e., maintaining - or you're going back in time - i.e. growing hair. If you can't do either, then what the f*** are you doing?

You are betting you will stop time, but obviously the odds are pretty low so you have to present Kerastem in a realistically way. Are you part of the emotional people who can't manage their expectations?

The "consensus?" They need a "consensus" to determine what exactly is going to happen?

No sh*t...

"If you have the money, you can try the bet." Hey, I have a special potion that "won't stop time," but it will do something to your hair. I'll sell it to you, and it's a steal at half the price of Karestem! What do you have to lose? Try the bet!

Sorry, but when it comes to medical intervention, I don't "bet" - a professional tells me what is going to happen based on the data they have collected through double-blind trials, which are done to ensure they - at the very least - don't hurt me, and - at the very most and as expected - help me.

Yep a professional should definitely explain you what will happen in a new treatment which lacks of data... Is there something you don't understand in "otherwise don't waste your money until you have solid data which won't happen before 10 years. "

Can you wait a full documented report from people who are enough kind to do this so everybody can know whether it worth it or not?

This sh*t is such a ridiculous scam, and it's disgusting that these countries are allowing it to take place. AND it results in scars on the abdomen - scars for nothing!

for Christ's sake, just visit a psy man... Oh wait, that's another scam!

 

[sofia]

I agree with @hairblues it's very invasive, if you have the same chances of success like PRP I would rather try PRP.
I was black and blue for at least one week and in a lot of pain for 3 days.
As for the scars, it's really nothing and I am a woman, well maybe if you are a bikini model...
So unless you need a lipo I would not do it.
As for the price I paid 4500 eur, if you compare to 3-4 times PRP, it's not such a big difference.
Even though I informed myself, followed this thread, spoke to the clinic and so on, I didn't really think of this treatment as PRP.
Otherwise I would have done PRP.

 

[jayeffbee]

At the end of the day, we don't have sample sizes (nor even the length of experiment) to say whether or not it is a scam. The FDA trial is not cheap and has to count for something. I'm more expecting it to be disappointing than a scam (though I wish the 'no shock loss' had turned out true, guess I was the first!)

As for PRP, HL2020 is having some doctor who claims to always have success give a free session to someone. It's another technique we all think is historically a scam, but maybe things have changed?

I'm not sure we can compare techniques that have been around for many years with those around only recently yet. Clearly, this is a very new field of science and things are changing rapidly. Maybe it only works for females for all we know, and @sofia's head will grow like a chia pet

 

[Armando Jose]

I'm running for L'oréal

really? A lot of luck, and if you access to this big firm, probaby you wil be our hero....

 

[Stupidon]

really? A lot of luck, and if you access to this big firm, probaby you wil be our hero....

I meant for their treatment. I'm already settled in an IB.
I have some friends working in the L'oréal strategy team, I could ask if we can do a Q&A. But this is too early.

 

[sofia]

At the end of the day, we don't have sample sizes (nor even the length of experiment) to say whether or not it is a scam. The FDA trial is not cheap and has to count for something. I'm more expecting it to be disappointing than a scam (though I wish the 'no shock loss' had turned out true, guess I was the first!)

As for PRP, HL2020 is having some doctor who claims to always have success give a free session to someone. It's another technique we all think is historically a scam, but maybe things have changed?

I'm not sure we can compare techniques that have been around for many years with those around only recently yet. Clearly, this is a very new field of science and things are changing rapidly. Maybe it only works for females for all we know, and @sofia's head will grow like a chia pet

Hahahahaha!
You made me laugh @jayeffbee
Your words in God's ears, as we say.

 

[paxis]

It's been some time.

How is it going guys? Any updates?

 

[jayeffbee]

It's been some time.

How is it going guys? Any updates?

I haven't done photos for this round yet, but I will give my 2 cents at the 6 months mark (with the disclaimer also have been on finasteride)

1. I definitely have yet to personally notice/appreciate any real gain in overall density/hair strength/resiliency, and part of me wonders if the 10-30% cited by the clinic might just be recovering from surgery. If something notable was supposed to happen so far, it definitely didn't happen within 3-4 months.
2. To the above I will grant that hair takes a long time to cycle, maybe it takes longer to develop like other treatments and things will change (I will hope so, but not expect it)
3. Further on that note, being someone in a constant state of paranoia out about their hair… maybe its impossible to know without getting actually measured by a doctor but when I part my hair as a spot check I still generally feel as sad as ever
4. Still shedding, to what extent it is finasteride induced (coming up on 5 months) I guess is hard to know, seems like more lately but at no point did I feel like the treatment had much impact on that
5. Given a re-do, I would opt to have talked to a therapist so they could talk me out of spending thousands of dollars on an unproven surgery in a totally unfamiliar country that, while left with a flat stomach, may have left me easier to bruise in my abdomen… and if I really wanted maybe I would have spent it on the latest generation of PRP like the one talked about at HL2020 somewhere here in the states

Currently, I definitely feel a huge sense of "what was I thinking, damn are sad people gullible"

Granted, if something changes over the NEXT 6 months, I will definitely keep people updated, but that's my take at the moment. Still interested to hear what the FDA trials say. Also bummed out the people at Kerastem itself never responded to my email inquiry.

 

[Grasshüpfer]

Thanks @jayeffbee. Nice to have some closure on those things.

 

[Stupidon]

I will try to update you this weekend, but I didn't find anyone to take magnified photos for haircount comparison.

 

[sofia]

Hello there,
It has been 4 months since the treatment for me. I went to see my dermatologist today, I always go every 3-6 months to make pictures and see how things are.
I had told him that I was going to try the treatment, he then said he doesn't believe it will help. In his opinion it's just like prp.
So today I told him that I did it and that my hair slowly stopped falling at the 4 months mark.
Since September I was having a heavy shedding 400-600 hairs per washing and now I loose 100 hairs when I wash.
So he maid the pics, to see how the top of the head looks like and said it looks very well. But he also said that I probably had a seasonal shedding, now its February and so it stopped.
He then went to make magnified pictures and said: oh I must say though, it looks indeed very good and it can't just be the stopping of the shedding. I would say that the treatment had good results after all.
So he started asking me, how it was, how much did it cost and so on.
I for myself, have the impression that my hair stopped falling (not completely but by a lot), and is thicker.
So this is my updated for you guys at 4 months post kerastem treatment.