Why are Copper Peptides so Important?

[JWM]

I have used Prox-N and it is VERY good stuff, albeit VERY expensive, hence the reason I can only use it from time to time.

I know many people feel that the LEF brand is almost identical to Proctor's, but I have used both and saw my best results using his formula from his office.

 

[ColtsFan]

JWM

I was always wondering what if any difference there was between his and the LEF version? He says its his"light" version whatever that means...

 

[S Foote.]

About itching,

It has been hypothesised that itching is caused by the human immune system attacking the hair follicle, which leads to inflammation, fibrosis and eventually miniturization-a process commonly called male pattern baldness.

It's comforting news that Copper Peptides get rid of this itching completely and almost immediately.

I agree completely with the need to address the inflamatory component of male pattern baldness, but i don't go along with the notion that DHT is `directly' creating an immune reaction to `certain' follicles to CAUSE the miniaturisation!!

My main `beef' with the current interpretation of studies involving DHT related effects on hair growth, is that they lack the context of a basic scientific theory!

For example, if it is to be proposed that DHT miniaturises follicles in the male pattern baldness area via some kind of immune reaction, you also have to explain what DHT mediated immune reaction enlarges body hair follicles!!!

In developing a `proper' scientific theory, we have to explain `ALL' the observations, and a logical cause and effect relationship! If you do this, the only `cause and effect' senario that makes sense in terms of recognised physiology, is DHT induced changes in the local tissue fluid pressure!!

This modification in tissue fluid pressure, determines the `local' tissue resistence to anagen follicle enlargement, via `NORMAL' contact inibition of cell multiplication. Where DHT reduces fluid pressure, (body areas associated with increased levels of lymph vessels), follicles can enlarge (body and beard growth). Where DHT increases fluid pressures in some individuals (male pattern baldness area), follicle growth is restricted via earlier onset of normal contact inhibition.

Importantly in terms of scientific theories, this `SAME' increased fluid pressure in the male pattern baldness area `ALSO' explains the `OTHER' observations of immune infiltrate and fibrosis. http://www.lymphoedema.org.au/index.htm (click `what is lymphedema') Quote:" The excess protein also acts as a stimulus for chronic inflammation. One of the results of this is the formation of much excess fibrous tissue. The chronic inflammation causes more blood capillaries to form and to be dilated." Does this ring a bell? Also, the increased fluid pressure explains the much increased sweating capacity of balding tissue! (Cabanac and Brinnel, `Beards, Baldness and Sweat Secretion', Eur J Appl Physiol: 1988; 58: 39-36.)

It is of paramount importance scientificaly, to always consider observations or studies in the context of a `proper' scientific theory, that explains `ALL' the observations. Not just those that suit a particular argument! In my opinion, this is where current DHT related hair growth/loss research has failed!

S Foote.

 

[johnnycash]

Hey dudes,

I have no itch, even with regular use of minoxidil and proscar. I'm a diffuser, are the peptides still worth a shot? It's funny how much is said about dry, itchy scalps and male pattern baldness though my scalp has always been fine.

 

[Cassin]

Hey dudes,

I have no itch, even with regular use of minoxidil and proscar. I'm a diffuser, are the peptides still worth a shot? It's funny how much is said about dry, itchy scalps and male pattern baldness though my scalp has always been fine.

I would only add stuff as needed. Try to keep things as simple and cheap as possible. So probably not.

EDIT: Diffuse has zero to do with Cu's.

 

[johnnycash]

thanks casin.

----For example, if it is to be proposed that DHT miniaturises follicles in the male pattern baldness area via some kind of immune reaction, you also have to explain what DHT mediated immune reaction enlarges body hair follicles!!! ---

dude, speak english man. what the hell are you talking about??? especially if your grammer is off!!

 

[NorwoodClimber]

I just order my Folligen spray. I'm not currently using min but I've encountered increased scalp irritation using proscar. I'm using nizoral but it doesn't seem to be stopping the itching.

Has finastride been known to cause scalp itch? My head never really itched this bad before I started the stuff.

 

[Chujgcha]

too hot...DELETED

 

[JWM]

Colts Fan

Dr. Proctor has actually gone on record and said that his LEF products are actually a better value than his office products with comparison to cost and amount of ingredients used in the light version.

I personally prefer his office product when I have the extra money of course

 

[Brasileirao]

S. Foote,

Are you saying that the inflamation part of male pattern baldness should be addressed first before we go after the DHT. I read up on all that information and what Im confused about is that if balding men had some sort of lymphedema we would be slow healers to bruises and/or swelling. I think you have brought up a good point which opens the doors to the benefits of Cu-peptides in helping ease inflamation. But I dont see how you can discredit DHT all together.


Regards,
Tony

 

[JWM]

IMO, DHT is simply the catalyst that starts the whole male pattern baldness process i.e inflammation/fibrosis etc. This is why people who have lost quite a bit of hair tend not to obtain regrowth from 5ar inhibitors like Finasteride.

Once a significant amount of the balding process is under way, then it is just as important to address many of the other aspects of male pattern baldness like inflammation and blocking capsases activation.

5ar inhibitors certainly help at the initial stages of balding, but after a certain period of time, there are far more aspects that need to be addressed. This is often why a multi-model approach works best.

 

[S Foote.]

>>Are you saying that the inflamation part of male pattern baldness should be addressed first before we go after the DHT. I read up on all that information and what Im confused about is that if balding men had some sort of lymphedema we would be slow healers to bruises and/or swelling. I think you have brought up a good point which opens the doors to the benefits of Cu-peptides in helping ease inflamation. But I dont see how you can discredit DHT all together. <<

Hi Tony.

I don't discredit DHT at all, i propose a basic DHT `trigger' that accounts for `ALL' the related observations. I think this trigger is DHT induced edema in the male pattern baldness area. Remember that the scalp is a reletively thin tissue that curves around the skull, so it is `well supported' and it would take a lot of pressure to create `obvious' clinical edema in the male pattern baldness area. But all the signs of increased fluid pressures and levels are there, as described in the lymphedema link in my post. In my opinion, the inflamation in male pattern baldness is just a consequense of the same increased fluid pressure that causes the follicle miniaturisation, `NOT' the cause of the miniaturisation. But the inflamation then tends to make the edema worse and the fibrosis also inhibits follicle enlargement as stated in the original post in this thread. So the inflamation component is an important contributing factor in my opinion, and has to be addressed.

Perhaps this letter i have been sending to experts for comments will explain my theory better. A link to my paper is in the letter.

Regards.

S Foote.

_________________________________________



Dear ---------

I would welcome your opinion on a factor that must, given accepted physiology, have the `final say' in the size of the in vivo anagen follicle. This factor is the basic mechanism in multi-cellular biology of contact inhibition.

My opinion on the role of contact inhibition in anagen follicle size, and the advantages of this in the evolution and function of hair, can be seen here http://www.hairsite2.com/library/abst-167.htm A slightly modified version of this paper was published in Medical Hypotheses (2002) 59 (5), 522-526. doi:10.1016/S0306-9877(02)00259-1, available on line at http://www.idealibrary.com


The basic reasoning goes like this.

The amount of hair produced is directly related to the period of anagen, and the size achived by the anagen follicle. In male pattern baldness, the anagen period is shortened, resulting in miniaturised follicles.

In multi-cellular biology, any organ `building' is subject to the ultimate control of normal contact inhibition. Contact inhibition ensures that organs can only be as large as the available space allows. This prevents biological structures from interfering with each other.

As the anagen follicle starts to enlarge, it has to push the surrounding dermal tissue aside. The greater the resistence to movement of the dermal tissue, the earlier normal contact inhibition will `kick in'. If the resistence is high, the anagen enlargement period will be turned off early by contact inhibition, resulting in miniaturised follicles. If the resistence is low, anagen enlargement can continue for longer, resulting in larger follicles and increased hair growth.

The only factor that could `modify' the resistence to movement of the dermal tissue, is the fluid pressure within it. If the fluid pressure is high, the tissue rigidity is increased, and therefore its resistence to movement. Likewise, if the fluid pressure is low, so is the resistence to movement.

This mechanism makes a link with high fluid pressure and reduced hair growth, and low fluid pressure and increased hair growth. In my opinion, hair follicles evolved to `read' the fluid pressure in surrounding tissue to adjust hair production in line with other temperature controls in evolving mammals. Please see "The hydraulic dermal model" section of my paper.

A role of contact inhibition mediated through hydraulic changes in male pattern baldness, does not conflict with in-vitro observations, or the donor dominance observed in transplanted grafts. Sample follicle cells `switched off' by contact inhibition, have been fundamentally altered compared to cells that continue to multiply. EG: samples from terminal hair producing follicles. Any different in-vitro response of such samples to androgens, or other substances is to be expected! The observed Hypoxia in follicle grafts demonstrates no `active' circulation within these grafts. No active circulation means no hydraulic changes! The grafts will remain in the `as transplanted state', demonstrating donor dominance.

In male pattern baldness we have hair loss, immune infiltrate and immune sensitivity, ultimate fibrosis, and tissue thickening. These are all recognised factors in edemous tissue. http://www.lymphoedema.org.au/lymphoed.htm

One way to increase hair growth according to this mechanism, is to increase the resistence of follicle cells to contact inhibition? The danger here is that these cells would then be far more likely to become tumorous. In my opinion, the results of Fuchs in manipulating the Wnt pathway, confirms a central role of contact inhibition in follicle developement. http://www.hhmi.org/fuchs/index.html

If you look at other cases of hair loss, the common factor in these conditions is an increase in tissue fluid pressure for one reason or another!

As far as HM like procedures are concerned, i think the implantation itself could create `one off' conditions? There is bound to be some kind of healing process here, and this could very likely allow increased cell multiplication initially, and the developement of a large anagen follicle. We know that an `over production' of cells can occour during the healing process, scar tissue for example?

This predicts a potential problem with follicles generated by HM? If these follicles cycle normally, come the next anagen phase, these would then also come under the influence of normal contact inhibition. If the scalp conditions have not changed, large HM generated follicles could only last for one cycle?

I would welcome your comments on this proposal.

Best Regards,

Stephen Foote.

 

[Cassin]

Translation.......

Copper-Peptides are good stuff.

/brain smoking

 

[Brasileirao]

S. Foote,

Thanks very much for your reply, you make a very very very good point. It is interesting to see different factor which play a role in male pattern baldness. We do seem to attack it by controlling the DHT, but from what I gather there is more then just that which needs to be addressed. If one could get the inflamation down in order to decrease the effects of edema the likelyhood of success from treatments would be far greater. This brings into the question the importance of Tricomin or Folligen as a way to keep the fibrosis at bay which in theory would lessen the negative effects on the follicle enlargement.

Again Thanks,
Tony

 

[Kevin fretwell]

I think you guys are hitting it right on the head actually . Inflamation is just as responsable for hairloss and thus should be targeted for correction with peptides for any serious regimen to be considered potent and up to date . Dealing with hairloss without considering a peptide product is far off the correct path . I'm surprised at the number of minoxidil users who don't consider the inflamation that is occuring and thus counteracting thier advancement . Minoxidil in fact causes a great deal of inflamation but the potency of the chemical itself manages to out do the cons involved resulting in better hair count .

 

[Xphilos]

http://www.regrowth.com/hair_loss_information/sod.cfm

Scroll down to table 8.

In the mouse study Tin peptides are twice as effective as copper peptides.

this post kinda got lost in the mix. the article in Chujgcha's link is about superoxide dismutases and peptone-metal complexes.

whatever that means.

but the tables near the bottom show that only one of the complexes tested was based on the copper peptides. the others were tin and indium.

and tin(II) seems to be the clear winner.

 

[The Gardener]

Okay, Okay... you all have convinced me. I'll add in some peptide action to see what the man can do. I'm thinking of picking up some of that American Crew sh*t.

But, one question... assuming one wanted to go the tin peptide route, where the heck does someone buy tin peptides? It's not exactly something that I see everyday on the store shelves.

 

[cloud]

Folligen for blondes has tin peptides...

http://www.folligen.com/folligenforblondes.html

Cloud.

 

[Cassin]

Okay, Okay... you all have convinced me. I'll add in some peptide action to see what the man can do. I'm thinking of picking up some of that American Crew sh*t.

But, one question... assuming one wanted to go the tin peptide route, where the heck does someone buy tin peptides? It's not exactly something that I see everyday on the store shelves.

Here is where I got my revitalize spray. This is as cheap as you can find it.

http://www.mensroombarbershop.bigstep.c ... ID=1192644

Tricomin and folligen can be found on gourmetstylewellness.com the cheapest.


Welcome Gardener to the Cult of Cu's.

We are growing stronger.....

Muhahahahahahhahaha

 

[Kevin fretwell]

Gardener , keep in mind that the supposed tin peptide results are off of a hairloss site that is known to post bogus info so the tin may be slightly less effective but you can get tin at http://www.folligen.com .Good to have your pledge in the cult . Meuwahahahahahaaaaa