Why The 'prostaglandin Protocol' Will Make Your Face Look Like sh*t

[IdealForehead]

One of the biggest problems with manipulation of prostaglandins for hair growth is that manipulating prostaglandins may have effects on much more than just your hair - it can also affect your skin, aging, and general facial appearance.

By some sick joke of nature, it appears as if the prostaglandins that best encourage hair growth also have pro-aging effects - damaging capillaries, weakening collagen, and decreasing subcutaneous fat. That is to say: The prostaglandins that help our hair grow also make our faces look like sh*t.

I will try to review some of the evidence I'm aware of explaining how this happens. This will not be short, as there is a lot to discuss.


PGE2 & Its Negative Effects
I have been taking minoxidil tablets for a month. It doesn't take long to take minoxidil tablets to see all the side effects people complain about online with even chronic topical use. Your eyes get puffy as hell, the dark circles accumulate under them, and the skin looks weak and wrinkly. It's a pretty quick effect and very ugly.

Minoxidil is expected to work by increasing PGE2 (ref). PGE2 is the most hyped up prostaglandin which is supposed to promote hair growth very well.

Unfortunately, PGE2 is known to be an inflammatory mediator. PGE2 is increased in response to damage like sunburns (ref), which is why some people like to burn their scalp to try to promote hair growth (likely not a good idea overall). Known substances with anti-inflammatory effects like omega 3's inhibit PGE2 and PGE2 is generally considered "pro-inflammatory" (ref).

PGE2 is known to very potently inhibit collagen production (ref, ref). Increased PGE2 is a known mediator of age related changes to the skin, and its levels in the skin go up with age (ref).

Any approach to increase PGE2 will therefore almost certainly lead to decreased collagen production. Collagen is one of the most important substances to maintaining the quality of our skin. Collagen loss with age is one of the main reasons for the loss of suppleness in the skin and wrinkling.

Guys that are applying PGE2 gel to their scalp, will likely inevitably also suffer increase local inflammation and damage collagen, causing accelerated skin aging.

PGE1 which many of the prostaglandin guys have played with also has similarly negative effects on collagen (ref).


PGF2 alpha & Its Negative Effects
Bimatoprost and Latanoprost are the other two medications which are best studied to induce hair growth by manipulating prostaglandins. They both work as PGF2 alpha analogs (ref).

These are very powerful medications which have been used cosmetically to increase eyelash length, and people have used them topically as well on the scalp to promote hair growth. They are proven as effective for both. (ref)

Unfortunately, these medications when used around the eye have been shown to induce atrophy of both the muscles and fat in the area, leading to sunken, old, wrinkled looking eyes. You can review pics of this well known phenomenon here.

This horrible side effect is due to "fatty degeneration and reduced collagen fibers in the [eye muscles] caused by the prostaglandin or prostamide analogs." (ref) Such changes may be "irreversible" (ref).

So yet again, we have wonderful proven medications that can promote hair growth through manipulation of prostaglandins, but in doing so, they are trashing our collagen and causing our natural facial fat to atrophy and wither away making us look old.


PGD2 - A Universal Villain?
PGD2 is generally quoted as the biggest prostaglandin enemy of hair, based on evidence that it is elevated in areas of the scalp that are balding (ref).

Fortunately here we may get lucky! It appears PGD2 may be both bad for collagen/inflammation and hair. PGD2 reduces collagen production (ref), and is considered generally pro-inflammatory (ref), Therefore efforts to reduce PGD2's effects, may help both our skin quality and our hair growth.

Setipiprant/fevipiprant attempt to block PGD2 from binding to its receptor.

A better and safer approach is likely through the use of topical anithistamines like cetirizine or desloratadine, as these able to block both the production of PGD2 and numerous other inflammatory mediators (ref, ref). Topical 1% cetirizine has effectively promoted hair growth in two studies to date (ref, ref).

This is complicated however, by the case of niacin, which is known to increase PGD2 (ref) but also be anti-aging (ref), but possibly through two separate mechanisms. Personally I use niacin in all my topical preparations, as I believe promoting healthy skin and hair is more than about "just prostaglandins".


LLLT - Reduces PGE2 But Still Promotes Hair Growth
Laser caps and laser hair treatments are quite popular these days and they have reasonably consistent evidence that they are effective in promoting hair growth (ref).

Interestingly enough, they actually seem to have an anti-inflammatory effect by reducing PGE2 (ref, ref). This means they are working in a way that REDUCES aging effects from PGE2 while still stimulating hair growth. According to prostaglandin theorists, reducing PGE2 is a "bad thing" for hair, though here it is not.

It's theorized that LLLT promotes hair growth by activating chromophores (light sensitive compounds) within the mitochondria (energy powerhouses) of skin and hair cells (ref). This activation stimulates growth and tissue recovery, while suppressing inflammation.

THIS is what we need more of. We need more approaches or compounds which can simultaneously PROMOTE HAIR GROWTH while also STOPPING AGING/INFLAMMATION.

It's not fun growing your hair back if you end up looking like a beat up old man by the end of it. I'd much rather help my hair and skin at the same time. LLLT seems to be one good therapy for this. Hopefully we can find other ways to do this.


Questions
The biggest questions all this raises for me are:

• What prostaglandins or cytokines actually INDUCE and HELP PROMOTE collagen production? Ie. What mediators are ANTI-aging?

• What kind of horrible cosmic joke has led to the circumstance where some of the best proven growth stimulators (PGE2, PGF alpha) also inevitably destroy our skin and make us look old?

• WHY is inhibiting collagen in the skin and destroying fat tissue biologically linked to promoting hair growth? How do these two phenomena connect?

• Are there any topical additives or other treatments like LLLT we can use to mitigate the negative effects of things like PGE2 while maintaining the positive effects of agents like minoxidil? Are there other approaches we can take altogether?

I don't have the answers. I don't know if anyone here will. I am hoping we can try to work this out. Any thoughts or ideas appreciated.

 

[ZenHead]

Great post man, really useful stuff here! I've been researching this angle a bit myself, but you clearly know your stuff. I do know that niacin doesn't actually increase PGD2, it just "flushes" it from the body into the bloodstream. That's why there's more present in the blood during a flush, but afterwards there is less PGD2 in the body.

 

[barfacan]

What dose of oral minoxidil are you taking?

In the case of PGE2, can hair-growth be attained without systemic absorption, or is it required? Perhaps liposomal suspension is key...

 

[IdealForehead]

What dose of oral minoxidil are you taking?

In the case of PGE2, can hair-growth be attained without systemic absorption, or is it required? Perhaps liposomal suspension is key...

For oral minoxidil, I tried 5 mg twice daily initially but had too many headaches when I'd wake up in the morning (vasodilator effect).

Even on just 2.5 mg once or twice daily I was getting permanently puffy eyes by the end of the 4 weeks. It was blatantly obvious and like nothing I've ever seen before with my face.

The interesting thing with minoxidil is many people report these exact same symptoms from purely topical use. Why is this possible?

Why There Is (Almost) No Such Thing as a "Topical" Hair Treatment
Well anything you apply to the scalp that absorbs deep enough to hit the dermal papilla (which is our target) is inevitably also going to reach the circulation, since that is also the level our blood vessels run at:

So in reality, there are very few things that can be "truly topical" treatments for hairloss. Anything that penetrates this deep will eventually go systemic to some extent or another.

This was actually proven back in 1985 with a study using radioactive minoxidil. They had men apply it to their scalps, and then measured the amount that ended up in their urine (ie. the amount that absorbed systemically). They estimated regular use was associated with a 2.4 to 5.4 mg per day systemic effect. (ref)

The primary benefit of using a topical treatment vs. an oral one is topical treatments allow you to hammer the hair with a much higher concentration than you could get orally. For example, 10 mg cetirizine is the standard oral dose for allergies. Taking that orally, very little will get to the hair. But if you apply 1 mL of 1% cetirizine to your scalp, all 10 mg will hit your hair primarily first. So it creates a concentrated effect at the hair.

Similarly, with darolutamide, which I am playing with as a powerful topical antiandrogen, 10 mg orally would be almost nothing systemically, as it would break down in the blood and liver very quickly. But applying 10 mg to the scalp may very well be enough to have a powerful effect, as it is all at least initially focused on the scalp and hair follicles.

But unfortunately, I don't think anyone should ever think "I am applying DRUG X to my scalp and it's not going anywhere else". If this is true, we wouldn't have the minoxidil study proving otherwise. That would be too easy...

 

[IdealForehead]

I'm going to bed, but I'm still researching this subject and trying to find alternative approaches to stimulate hair growth. I came across this fantastic thread someone created of alternative hair treatments. I was familiar with most but found one I had not heard of and looks promising.

Procyanidin B2

• Procyanidin B2 is a natural extract made from apples and grape seeds.
• Procyanidin B2 is theorized to induce hair growth by inhibiting Protein Kinase C which is a target no other hair loss drug seeks to hit (ref).
• A 1% application led to significant regrowth in men after 6 months vs. placebo (ref & ref).
• It is soluble in ethanol & DMSO (ref).
• Unlike agents that promote PGE2, procyanidin B2 is well known as a potent anti-inflammatory (ref, ref).
• The related Procyanidin B3 has a similarly positive effect on hair growth, and it seems to be related to down regulation of TGF-beta, another unique target (ref).

It does seem possible to find alternative pathways to stimulate hair growth without inducing ugly, pro-aging skin effects via prostaglandin pathways like PGE2. Ideally we should strive to find ways to keep our hair while also keeping our skin healthy, young, and vital.

I am looking into ordering some procyanidin B2 on Alibaba.

Further thoughts or ideas appreciated.

 

[ALightInTheDark]

I'm going to bed, but I'm still researching this subject and trying to find alternative approaches to stimulate hair growth. I came across this fantastic thread someone created of alternative hair treatments. I was familiar with most but found one I had not heard of and looks promising.

Procyanidin B2

• Procyanidin B2 is a natural extract made from apples and grape seeds.
• Procyanidin B2 is theorized to induce hair growth by inhibiting Protein Kinase C which is a target no other hair loss drug seeks to hit (ref).
• A 1% application led to significant regrowth in men after 6 months vs. placebo (ref & ref).
• It is soluble in ethanol & DMSO (ref).
• Unlike agents that promote PGE2, procyanidin B2 is well known as a potent anti-inflammatory (ref, ref).
• The related Procyanidin B3 has a similarly positive effect on hair growth, and it seems to be related to down regulation of TGF-beta, another unique target (ref).

It does seem possible to find alternative pathways to stimulate hair growth without inducing ugly, pro-aging skin effects via prostaglandin pathways like PGE2. Ideally we should strive to find ways to keep our hair while also keeping our skin healthy, young, and vital.

I am looking into ordering some procyanidin B2 on Alibaba.

Further thoughts or ideas appreciated.

If I remember well, PCB2 increase SOD levels and vasodilatation it explains why it works so well

 

[BaldyBalderBald]

You know that Fevi/Seti don't block or increase PGD2 production right ? they are only a single receptor antagonist (CRTh2), PGD2 have many receptors

 

[bridgeburn]

One of the biggest problems with manipulation of prostaglandins for hair growth is that manipulating prostaglandins may have effects on much more than just your hair - it can also affect your skin, aging, and general facial appearance.

By some sick joke of nature, it appears as if the prostaglandins that best encourage hair growth also have pro-aging effects - damaging capillaries, weakening collagen, and decreasing subcutaneous fat. That is to say: The prostaglandins that help our hair grow also make our faces look like sh*t.

I will try to review some of the evidence I'm aware of explaining how this happens. This will not be short, as there is a lot to discuss.


PGE2 & Its Negative Effects
I have been taking minoxidil tablets for a month. It doesn't take long to take minoxidil tablets to see all the side effects people complain about online with even chronic topical use. Your eyes get puffy as hell, the dark circles accumulate under them, and the skin looks weak and wrinkly. It's a pretty quick effect and very ugly.

Minoxidil is expected to work by increasing PGE2 (ref). PGE2 is the most hyped up prostaglandin which is supposed to promote hair growth very well.

Unfortunately, PGE2 is known to be an inflammatory mediator. PGE2 is increased in response to damage like sunburns (ref), which is why some people like to burn their scalp to try to promote hair growth (likely not a good idea overall). Known substances with anti-inflammatory effects like omega 3's inhibit PGE2 and PGE2 is generally considered "pro-inflammatory" (ref).

PGE2 is known to very potently inhibit collagen production (ref, ref). Increased PGE2 is a known mediator of age related changes to the skin, and its levels in the skin go up with age (ref).

Any approach to increase PGE2 will therefore almost certainly lead to decreased collagen production. Collagen is one of the most important substances to maintaining the quality of our skin. Collagen loss with age is one of the main reasons for the loss of suppleness in the skin and wrinkling.

Guys that are applying PGE2 gel to their scalp, will likely inevitably also suffer increase local inflammation and damage collagen, causing accelerated skin aging.

PGE1 which many of the prostaglandin guys have played with also has similarly negative effects on collagen (ref).


PGF2 alpha & Its Negative Effects
Bimatoprost and Latanoprost are the other two medications which are best studied to induce hair growth by manipulating prostaglandins. They both work as PGF2 alpha analogs (ref).

These are very powerful medications which have been used cosmetically to increase eyelash length, and people have used them topically as well on the scalp to promote hair growth. They are proven as effective for both. (ref)

Unfortunately, these medications when used around the eye have been shown to induce atrophy of both the muscles and fat in the area, leading to sunken, old, wrinkled looking eyes. You can review pics of this well known phenomenon here.

This horrible side effect is due to "fatty degeneration and reduced collagen fibers in the [eye muscles] caused by the prostaglandin or prostamide analogs." (ref) Such changes may be "irreversible" (ref).

So yet again, we have wonderful proven medications that can promote hair growth through manipulation of prostaglandins, but in doing so, they are trashing our collagen and causing our natural facial fat to atrophy and wither away making us look old.


PGD2 - A Universal Villain?
PGD2 is generally quoted as the biggest prostaglandin enemy of hair, based on evidence that it is elevated in areas of the scalp that are balding (ref).

Fortunately here we may get lucky! It appears PGD2 may be both bad for collagen/inflammation and hair. PGD2 reduces collagen production (ref), and is considered generally pro-inflammatory (ref), Therefore efforts to reduce PGD2's effects, may help both our skin quality and our hair growth.

Setipiprant/fevipiprant attempt to block PGD2 from binding to its receptor.

A better and safer approach is likely through the use of topical anithistamines like cetirizine or desloratadine, as these able to block both the production of PGD2 and numerous other inflammatory mediators (ref, ref). Topical 1% cetirizine has effectively promoted hair growth in two studies to date (ref, ref).

This is complicated however, by the case of niacin, which is known to increase PGD2 (ref) but also be anti-aging (ref), but possibly through two separate mechanisms. Personally I use niacin in all my topical preparations, as I believe promoting healthy skin and hair is more than about "just prostaglandins".


LLLT - Reduces PGE2 But Still Promotes Hair Growth
Laser caps and laser hair treatments are quite popular these days and they have reasonably consistent evidence that they are effective in promoting hair growth (ref).

Interestingly enough, they actually seem to have an anti-inflammatory effect by reducing PGE2 (ref, ref). This means they are working in a way that REDUCES aging effects from PGE2 while still stimulating hair growth. According to prostaglandin theorists, reducing PGE2 is a "bad thing" for hair, though here it is not.

It's theorized that LLLT promotes hair growth by activating chromophores (light sensitive compounds) within the mitochondria (energy powerhouses) of skin and hair cells (ref). This activation stimulates growth and tissue recovery, while suppressing inflammation.

THIS is what we need more of. We need more approaches or compounds which can simultaneously PROMOTE HAIR GROWTH while also STOPPING AGING/INFLAMMATION.

It's not fun growing your hair back if you end up looking like a beat up old man by the end of it. I'd much rather help my hair and skin at the same time. LLLT seems to be one good therapy for this. Hopefully we can find other ways to do this.


Questions
The biggest questions all this raises for me are:

• What prostaglandins or cytokines actually INDUCE and HELP PROMOTE collagen production? Ie. What mediators are ANTI-aging?

• What kind of horrible cosmic joke has led to the circumstance where some of the best proven growth stimulators (PGE2, PGF alpha) also inevitably destroy our skin and make us look old?

• WHY is inhibiting collagen in the skin and destroying fat tissue biologically linked to promoting hair growth? How do these two phenomena connect?

• Are there any topical additives or other treatments like LLLT we can use to mitigate the negative effects of things like PGE2 while maintaining the positive effects of agents like minoxidil? Are there other approaches we can take altogether?

I don't have the answers. I don't know if anyone here will. I am hoping we can try to work this out. Any thoughts or ideas appreciated.

maybe the reduction of collagen is part of the benefial effects?
"It was found that collagen bundles were significantly increased in balding vertexes than in non-balding occiput scalp skin. A near 4-fold increase in elastic fibers was observed in both vertex and occiput scalp skins with MPHL versus controls."
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18286292

 

[IdealForehead]

maybe the reduction of collagen is part of the benefial effects?
"It was found that collagen bundles were significantly increased in balding vertexes than in non-balding occiput scalp skin. A near 4-fold increase in elastic fibers was observed in both vertex and occiput scalp skins with MPHL versus controls."
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18286292

Hahahahaha. Oh f*** I have to read that and ponder that later. That would be a sick joke if I ever heard one.

On a superficial level, I note that article also references a higher level of mast cells in balding scalps. Very good find! I was not aware of this though it fits with my other reading and theories.

A relationship has been suggested between mast cells (MCs) and male pattern hair loss (MPHL), because of histological evidence of perifollicular fibrosis and increased mast cell numbers. Total numbers of MCs (tryptase-positive) in site-matched scalp samples were about 2-fold higher in MPHL subjects than in normal controls. These findings suggest that accumulated MCs might be responsible for increased elastic fiber synthesis in MPHL.​

Well guess what best inhibits mast cell activation?

Topical antihistamines! Eg. Cetirizine. Eg. Desloratadine. Which I've been posting a lot about lately ... I really think they are a big part and easy cheap treatment option to employ. This piles more evidence on that.

Unlike minoxidil or PGE2 type analogs, topical antihistamines should cause no negative effects on collagen, or other skin factors, while still being effective at blocking and reversing the balding process. I am looking forward to receiving my desloratadine powder.

 

[bridgeburn]

Hahahahaha. Oh f*** I have to read that and ponder that later. That would be a sick joke if I ever heard one.

On a superficial level, I note that article also references a higher level of mast cells in balding scalps. Very good find! I was not aware of this though it fits with my other reading and theories.

A relationship has been suggested between mast cells (MCs) and male pattern hair loss (MPHL), because of histological evidence of perifollicular fibrosis and increased mast cell numbers. Total numbers of MCs (tryptase-positive) in site-matched scalp samples were about 2-fold higher in MPHL subjects than in normal controls. These findings suggest that accumulated MCs might be responsible for increased elastic fiber synthesis in MPHL.​

Well guess what best inhibits mast cell activation?

Topical antihistamines! Eg. Cetirizine. Eg. Desloratadine. Which I've been posting a lot about lately ... I really think they are a big part and easy cheap treatment option to employ. This piles more evidence on that.

Unlike minoxidil or PGE2 type analogs, topical antihistamines should cause no negative effects on collagen, or other skin factors, while still being effective at blocking and reversing the balding process. I am looking forward to receiving my desloratadine powder.

Lol, everything about this disease IS a sick joke.

 

[IdealForehead]

Just got a proper look at that article you posted @bridgeburn and although yes, it appears collagen is increased in male pattern baldness, it is only very minimally. So I don't think we should have to say reducing collagen is a necessary part of stimulating regrowth.

By contrast there is a DRASTIC increase in elastic fibers from balding to nonbalding skin, and they suggest this is a mast cell mediated process. As they say, "Increases in elastic fibers were correlated with increased numbers of mast cells in balding vertex with MPHL".

This mast cell mediated increase in elastic fibers should again be very well inhibited by topical antihistamines and lends support for the studies which showed up to 18% increase in hair with a topical antihistamine like 1% certirizine.

Few things deactivate mast cells better than antihistamines.

 

[AllerganSaveUs]

Hello, thank you for this post. Cetirizine has been shown to inhibit PGD2 as well as the H1-receptor, with multiple other mechanisms of action. In clinical studies, it has been shown to not inhibit mast cell activation. Thousands of people use Cetrizine orally. Hair growth has only been reported in about 1-2% of users while 1-2% of users have also reported hair loss. The clinical data for Cetrizine being effective topically for hair growth is very small, many more studies must be conducted until an accurate conclusion can be made. People have experimented with topical Cetrizine many times in the past, with the majority of them finding no improvement in their hair growth. Looking at these factors, it seems very unlikely that Cetirizine could be effective for Androgenetic Alopecia.

 

[IdealForehead]

Hello, thank you for this post. Cetirizine has been shown to inhibit PGD2 as well as the H1-receptor, with multiple other mechanisms of action. In clinical studies, it has been shown to not inhibit mast cell activation. Thousands of people use Cetrizine orally. Hair growth has only been reported in about 1-2% of users while 1-2% of users have also reported hair loss. The clinical data for Cetrizine being effective topically for hair growth is very small, many more studies must be conducted until an accurate conclusion can be made. People have experimented with topical Cetrizine many times in the past, with the majority of them finding no improvement in their hair growth. Looking at these factors, it seems very unlikely that Cetirizine could be effective for Androgenetic Alopecia.

I think that's an unrealistic assessment. Oral cetirizine doses are 10 mg daily for the entire body. Topical doses are 10 mg directed fully at the scalp.

We have two peer-reviewed published studies showing significant regrowth with topical 1% cetirizine which is more evidence than we have for plenty of options. Many more studies will almost certainly NOT be performed as there is no financial incentive for pharmaceutical companies to spend millions testing these drugs, which are all generic and cheap over the counter formulations.

I think the evidence we have both in theory based on the mechanisms described in this thread and others and the evidence of considerable regrowth in peer reviewed studies are sufficient to consider it an effective adjunct. There is no way in hell they will replace anti-androgens, but they are dirt cheap, and easy to add to topical formulations for extra benefit.

And as stated, they should have no negative anti-collagen or pro-aging effects like minoxidil or other PGE2 mediators.

Here are some of the before/afters from one of the studies on 1% cetirizine (before at the top, after at the bottom). I think this pretty clearly goes beyond the "placebo effect" as did all their findings.

 

[bridgeburn]

Just got a proper look at that article you posted @bridgeburn and although yes, it appears collagen is increased in male pattern baldness, it is only very minimally. So I don't think we should have to say reducing collagen is a necessary part of stimulating regrowth.

By contrast there is a DRASTIC increase in elastic fibers from balding to nonbalding skin, and they suggest this is a mast cell mediated process. As they say, "Increases in elastic fibers were correlated with increased numbers of mast cells in balding vertex with MPHL".

This mast cell mediated increase in elastic fibers should again be very well inhibited by topical antihistamines and lends support for the studies which showed up to 18% increase in hair with a topical antihistamine like 1% certirizine.

Few things deactivate mast cells better than antihistamines.



View attachment 69380

What's the difference between elastic fibers and collagen? I thought collagen was a specific type of elastic fiber. do these fibers make the skin tighter or thicker?

 

[AllerganSaveUs]

I think that's an unrealistic assessment. Oral cetirizine doses are 10 mg daily for the entire body. Topical doses are 10 mg directed fully at the scalp.

We have two peer-reviewed published studies showing significant regrowth with topical 1% cetirizine which is more evidence than we have for plenty of options. Many more studies will almost certainly NOT be performed as there is no financial incentive for pharmaceutical companies to spend millions testing these drugs, which are all generic and cheap over the counter formulations.

I think the evidence we have both in theory based on the mechanisms described in this thread and others and the evidence of considerable regrowth in peer reviewed studies are sufficient to consider it an effective adjunct. There is no way in hell they will replace anti-androgens, but they are dirt cheap, and easy to add to topical formulations for extra benefit.

And as stated, they should have no negative anti-collagen or pro-aging effects like minoxidil or other PGE2 mediators.

Here are some of the before/afters from one of the studies on 1% cetirizine (before at the top, after at the bottom). I think this pretty clearly goes beyond the "placebo effect" as did all their findings.

View attachment 69381

It is often hypothesized that calcification and fibrosis play a significant role in Androgentic Alopecia. That may be another reason why Minoxidil is beneficial. You can read more about that here: https://tophairlosstreatments.com/hair-loss-fibrosis-collagen/

Also, I personally have trouble believing those study result pictures were legitimate. Countless amount of people tested topical Cetrizine for hair loss back in 2012. Most did not see any benefit and lost more hair. A search engine query of "Cetrizine hair results" will show you many of these forum posts from 2012. Cetrizine may do more bad than good for hair. You can read more on why here: https://ask.fm/swisstemples/answers/133665447532

I could always be wrong but that is what my findings lead me to believe.

 

[IdealForehead]

It is often hypothesized that calcification and fibrosis play a significant role in Androgentic Alopecia. That may be another reason why Minoxidil is beneficial. You can read more about that here: https://tophairlosstreatments.com/hair-loss-fibrosis-collagen/

Also, I personally have trouble believing those study result pictures were from legitimate. Countless amount of people tested topical Cetrizine for hair loss back in 2012. Most did not see any benefit and lost more hair. A search engine query of "Cetrizine hair results" will show you many of these forum posts from 2012. Cetrizine may do more bad than good for hair. You can read more on why here: https://ask.fm/swisstemples/answers/133665447532

I could always be wrong but that is what my findings lead me to believe.

Well the pictures I posted came from a study that was run by a professor at the Internal Medicine department of the University of Rome in concert with 8 others affiliated with the University of Rome and the Institute of Dermatology in Rome. I have a hard time they would have reason or justification to form a conspiracy to create fraudulent results in not one but TWO hair loss studies which were posted in peer-reviewed studies.

By contrast, I have very little regard for the opinion of an egomaniacal amateur hair loss neo-Nazi and his ask.fm account.

So from my perspective there is nothing really to debate there.

Many people post online about losing hair on minoxidil. That does not mean it is not a valid treatment.

 

[AllerganSaveUs]

Well the pictures I posted came from a study that was run by a professor at the Internal Medicine department of the University of Rome in concert with 8 others affiliated with the University of Rome and the Institute of Dermatology in Rome. I have a hard time they would have reason or justification to form a conspiracy to create fraudulent results in not one but TWO hair loss studies which were posted in peer-reviewed studies.

By contrast, I have very little regard for the opinion of an egomaniacal amateur hair loss neo-Nazi and his ask.fm account.

So from my perspective there is nothing really to debate there.

Is that guy really a neo-Nazi?

 

[bridgeburn]

By contrast, I have very little regard for the opinion of an egomaniacal amateur hair loss neo-Nazi and his ask.fm account.

Lol.

 

[AllerganSaveUs]

Oh, I read your previous post incorrectly. Well, I still think if topical Cetrizine was even somewhat close to as effective as Minoxidil or Finasteride we would have known big time by now from all those people testing it in the past. I have witnessed countless studies stating hair count improvement from LLLT but not very much evidence to support it. I still use LLLT anyway, but have not seen improvement from it.

 

[IdealForehead]

Oh, I read your previous post incorrectly. Well, I still think if topical Cetrizine was even somewhat close to as effective as Minoxidil or Finasteride we would have known big time by now from all those people testing it in the past. I have witnessed countless studies stating hair count improvement from LLLT but not very much evidence to support it. I still use LLLT anyway, but have not seen improvement from it.

The problem you have to keep in mind with drawing too many conclusions from forum posts is that the types of guys who hang out on hair loss forums tend to be the HARDEST cases. For example, neither finasteride or dutasteride worked for me. That is incredibly rare. But yet that was the case. And that is why I have gone on to progressively more experimental means.

Easy cases that use minoxidil topicallly and get a good response or take finasteride and get solid regrowth with no side effects won't post on web forums. Guys who fail conventional therapies will. And guys who fail conventional therapies will likely overall have a higher probability of failing unconventional therapies too as they may have more aggressive hair loss genetics or other complicating factors.

Using minoxidil alone in my opinion is foolish and many men who do so (even the easy cases) will continue to lose hair. I think using cetirizine alone would also be foolish and many men will also continue to lose hair. These in my opinion should be considered potential adjuncts to antiandrogens.

The pictures were of their best outcomes not the typical outcomes. Just like with finasteride or minoxidil, only a small percent will get massive obvious results but overall they are still valid treatments.

The other complicating factor for cetirizine is it can degrade in alcohol vehicles. If people were adding it to 30% alcohol standard solutions, it is unknown how much would remain by the time they apply it to their scalps. Again, this is why I have ordered desloratadine instead. It is stable in alcohol.

When it comes to the experiences of random guys on web forums vs. the published peer-reviewed findings of professional medical researchers from top universities, I will always take the findings of those published researchers first.