Exploring The Hormonal Route. Hair=life.

[JaneyElizabeth]

Obviously someone with the same genes is going to have better hair with lower androgen levels and higher estrogen levels.

no, that's what I was getting at, the idea of better because it came up on Friday, I think with the before and after pics of a transguy, sort of thicker vs. nicer. There is a sort of classical idea of female hair beauty and obviously, I am way too compulsive about comparing beautiful heads of hair. But there is context too and given that I have no beard, I can't go for that scruffy kind of dangerous guy any longer.

 

[Androgenic Alpaca]

@Jacob Williams you seem to have a good understanding about antiandrogen medications for the most part and seem to know the risks. I just encourage you to actually get your blood levels checked for hormone levels. This isn't the type of thing that you can go by how you feel. Also, I think you should maybe give treatment more time before changing. Frequently changing treatments can cause sheds.

As for antigonadotropins (as opposed to blockers), you could try progesterone, though I believe that it can't be taken orally because it can't go through liver. A lot of trans woman use a rectal suppository of progesterone, though I think injections would work too if you don't want to stick stuff up your bum. Theoretically, once you are an a large dose of E2, the estrogen will suppress your T levels and cause your testes to shutdown

Theoretically once your T levels reach near-zero, you wouldn't need any blockers or 5-alpha reductase inhibitors, but even after testicular shutdown there will be some small amount of T produced in the adrenal glands. This usually isn't a problem, but if you have some type of crazy overexpression of ARs, who knows. Just be aware that having zero testosterone at all is usually not good, even women need small amounts for normal physiological functioning

 

[JaneyElizabeth]

@Jacob Williams you seem to have a good understanding about antiandrogen medications for the most part and seem to know the risks. I just encourage you to actually get your blood levels checked for hormone levels. This isn't the type of thing that you can go by how you feel. Also, I think you should maybe give treatment more time before changing. Frequently changing treatments can cause sheds.

As for antigonadotropins (as opposed to blockers), you could try progesterone, though I believe that it can't be taken orally because it can't go through liver. A lot of trans woman use a rectal suppository of progesterone, though I think injections would work too if you don't want to stick stuff up your bum. Theoretically, once you are an a large dose of E2, the estrogen will suppress your T levels and cause your testes to shutdown

Theoretically once your T levels reach near-zero, you wouldn't need any blockers or 5-alpha reductase inhibitors, but even after testicular shutdown there will be some small amount of T produced in the adrenal glands. This usually isn't a problem, but if you have some type of crazy overexpression of ARs, who knows. Just be aware that having zero testosterone at all is usually not good, even women need small amounts for normal physiological functioning

Nice review. Any idea how much is commonly used rectally? @Bridgburn used to cycle.

 

[JaneyElizabeth]

@Jacob Williams you seem to have a good understanding about antiandrogen medications for the most part and seem to know the risks. I just encourage you to actually get your blood levels checked for hormone levels. This isn't the type of thing that you can go by how you feel. Also, I think you should maybe give treatment more time before changing. Frequently changing treatments can cause sheds.

As for antigonadotropins (as opposed to blockers), you could try progesterone, though I believe that it can't be taken orally because it can't go through liver. A lot of trans woman use a rectal suppository of progesterone, though I think injections would work too if you don't want to stick stuff up your bum. Theoretically, once you are an a large dose of E2, the estrogen will suppress your T levels and cause your testes to shutdown

Theoretically once your T levels reach near-zero, you wouldn't need any blockers or 5-alpha reductase inhibitors, but even after testicular shutdown there will be some small amount of T produced in the adrenal glands. This usually isn't a problem, but if you have some type of crazy overexpression of ARs, who knows. Just be aware that having zero testosterone at all is usually not good, even women need small amounts for normal physiological functioning

I posted that one article yesterday and those folks were only on .625mg premarin and suppressing testosterone and I was on a similar typical dose that was not suppressing testosterone so it depends on a variety of factors.

 

[DogoDiLaurentiis]

It's tied to genes that upregulate AR expression, and downregulate Wnts. Environmental factors are quite small, and mostly limited to early onset of hair loss and increased severity. Women have hair loss too, it's just not as severe because they have less DHT and more estrogen.

GWAS for male-pattern baldness identifies 71 susceptibility loci explaining 38% of the risk - Nature Communications

Male pattern baldness (MBP) is a complex trait that has genetic associations. Here, Pirastu and colleagues perform a genome-wide association study to show 71 susceptibility loci associated with MBP — 30 of which are novel — and that these loci can explain 38% of heritability.

www.nature.com

I am no longer of the belief that DHT is even close to 50% of the cause for most types of even patterned hair loss, I've been through a phase where I utterly nuked my test levels and especially DHT and the pattern hairloss persisted for an extended period of time.

It is my belief based on observed evidence, not broscience that hair vulnerable to what we commonly discern to be androgenic means of loss is actually a broad spectrum vulnerability that applies to various types of inflammation and also a broad range of hormones including GH, prolactin and insulin. They are all related, if the conventional perception were true then finasteride would be a gold standard panacea with virtually no side effects because every case of hairloss would be precisely the same.

 

[pegasus2]

I am no longer of the belief that DHT is even close to 50% of the cause for most types of even patterned hair loss, I've been through a phase where I utterly nuked my test levels and especially DHT and the pattern hairloss persisted for an extended period of time.

It is my belief based on observed evidence, not broscience that hair vulnerable to what we commonly discern to be androgenic means of loss is actually a broad spectrum vulnerability that applies to various types of inflammation and also a broad range of hormones including GH, prolactin and insulin. They are all related, if the conventional perception were true then finasteride would be a gold standard panacea with virtually no side effects because every case of hairloss would be precisely the same.

Why don't eunuchs go bald then?

 

[DogoDiLaurentiis]

Why don't eunuchs go bald then?

Are you honestly going to provide such a culturally irrelevant example as the standard by which the rest of modern civilization should be measured against? Really? Eunuchs aren't a prevalent population anymore, why even cite that?

Are you interested in understanding the nature of pattern hair loss in modern societies or are you trying to win a really lame argument via sophistry?

 

[DogoDiLaurentiis]

Obviously someone with the same genes is going to have better hair with lower androgen levels and higher estrogen levels.

It goes beyond that, estrogen clearly PROMOTES hair growth and improves skin tone, in the case of the presence of estrogen it is not about the zero sum relationship against testosterone unless it is extremely high, it is about the amount of hair growth and skin tone improving estrogen.

This is what you seem to be missing, the beginning of this thread is clearly proof that killing androgens isn't enough, there is something intrinsic about estrogen and its interaction at the receptor level that encourages something that merely suppressing DHT and testosterone does not. Even then, some women with balanced estrogen and serious blood sugar, growth hormone or even prolactin levels don't have good hair growth.

It's not -that- simple with the exception that estrogen clearly encourages hair growth, and so long as other hair diminishing hormones are not in excess you will see benefits.

 

[Androgenic Alpaca]

I am no longer of the belief that DHT is even close to 50% of the cause for most types of even patterned hair loss, I've been through a phase where I utterly nuked my test levels and especially DHT and the pattern hairloss persisted for an extended period of time.

It is my belief based on observed evidence, not broscience that hair vulnerable to what we commonly discern to be androgenic means of loss is actually a broad spectrum vulnerability that applies to various types of inflammation and also a broad range of hormones including GH, prolactin and insulin. They are all related, if the conventional perception were true then finasteride would be a gold standard panacea with virtually no side effects because every case of hairloss would be precisely the same.

"It is my belief based on observed evidence" is literally what broscience is. Every single halfway decent scientific study has established a causal link between androgens (primarily DHT, but others as well) to male pattern baldness.

For the vast majority of men, finasteride is plenty to stop the progression of male pattern baldness (even if it doesn't reverse it). Dutasteride is even more effective. Likewise, androgen blockers have been shown to be effective.

Even though those medications will work for most men, it doesn't work for everyone (like some people on this forum), but if we are to speculate why this may be, we've gone far past the realm of science and are beyond what amateurs can really determine.

 

[pegasus2]

Are you honestly going to provide such a culturally irrelevant example as the standard by which the rest of modern civilization should be measured against? Really? Eunuchs aren't a prevalent population anymore, why even cite that?

Are you interested in understanding the nature of pattern hair loss in modern societies or are you trying to win a really lame argument via sophistry?

Why don't people who are born with 5-ar type II deficiency go bald? Go ahead and move the goalposts now. That's what broscientists do

 

[DogoDiLaurentiis]

You're begging the question, that's not a large portion of the general population, whereas, since you're not reading properly, it is my hypothesis that pattern follicular vulnerability is actually a widespread phenomenon, and it is not completely understood by most people.

I already stated, pattern hair loss is implicated in a broad spectrum of hormones, and those with such a deficiency is not a guarantor that they won't experience hairloss from excess growth hormone, prolactin or insulin. So you're making extremely broad claims that you can't prove. If you think I'm moving goalposts, you're doing cat's cradle with them.

None of what you stated has disproven anything I've stated.

You could theoretically have moderate DHT levels and so long as you have a level of estrogen to compensate and induce more hair growth than loss your hair would be safe from the attrition of pattern hair loss vulnerability from DHT at least. Of course this has a limit because too much estrogen can induce loss as well, but my point is, this issue is way more complicated than saying that nuking androgens will guarantee a regrowth of hair, I know personally this is not true, I've observed in others that it is not true, and the OP of this thread is proof that is not true.

Where else do you really have to go with your argument? Nowhere.

 

[DogoDiLaurentiis]

"It is my belief based on observed evidence" is literally what broscience is. Every single halfway decent scientific study has established a causal link between androgens (primarily DHT, but others as well) to male pattern baldness.

For the vast majority of men, finasteride is plenty to stop the progression of male pattern baldness (even if it doesn't reverse it). Dutasteride is even more effective. Likewise, androgen blockers have been shown to be effective.

Even though those medications will work for most men, it doesn't work for everyone (like some people on this forum), but if we are to speculate why this may be, we've gone far past the realm of science and are beyond what amateurs can really determine.

No, that's the fundamental basis for the development of science as a discipline.

I've never argued against DHT being a causal factor, but arguing that it is far more complex than asserting "testosterone is the sole cause, just reduce it dramatically". My hypothesis based on what I've observed and my own experience based on hormone tests - is that pattern hairloss is often exacerbated but not solely caused by DHT. I actually disagree that finasteride is an appropriate treatment for most cases of pattern hairloss as it ignores the prevalence of other problem hormones or health issues.

Effective in the sense that they block androgens, but effective in terms of maintaining hair and keeping the subject healthy and looking healthy are two entirely different things.

And no, your final sentence sums up what amounts to an argument from ignorance, like I said the fundamental basis of science was people empirically formulating a hypothesis based on variables they could observe and categorize. Without that we would not have the luxury of what you believe we can only rely on now for diagnostic purposes.

It's my argument that finasteride is fundamentally unhealthy and an excessive measure for most men and that it's adverse health effects are often perceived on a time scale too long for most people to attribute to it's use.

Example: https://www.bmj.com/content/365/bmj.l1204#:~:text=Conclusions The risk of developing,dutasteride and those receiving finasteride.

Those people who do take those meds who develop full blown diabetes are fucked for hair growth regardless and all they've done is compound an already complex problem. This is precisely what I'm talking about, you wanted a somewhat legit source that contributes to my hypothesis, there you are.

Low testosterone exacerbates poor insulin sensitivity, so this becomes a worsening spiral of unhealthy patterns which simply won't result in quality hair regrowth. My hypothesis is that given western genetics and eating habits, this is actually more of a problem than men simply having too much DHT and it needing to be reduced as a means of preserving hair.

Testosterone Increasing Insulin Sensitivity

New study examining testosterone increasing insulin sensitivity shows that raising testosterone levels can help male patients with type 2 diabetes.

www.diabetesincontrol.com

Estrogen can also optimize insulin sensitivity, and if there's a means by which it can be applied contemporaneously without completely decimating testosterone levels, you theoretically can reduce risk of insulin resistance/diabetes which can exacerbate pattern hair loss, and improve hair growth without throwing yourself into a hypohormonal state.

Estrogen Improves Insulin Sensitivity and Suppresses Gluconeogenesis via the Transcription Factor Foxo1

Premenopausal women exhibit enhanced insulin sensitivity and reduced incidence of type 2 diabetes (T2D) compared with age-matched men, but this advantage disapp

diabetes.diabetesjournals.org

Simply because I don't have a laboratory or staff or a research institute at my disposal does not make my observations illegitimate, that's not what makes a hypothesis "broscience".

 

[Abomination]

Does shed here implies losing ground? If not then don't worry. If yes, then you should expect only maintenance on topical finasteride

I started topical finasteride almost 9 years ago and I have definitely lost ground. And im lossing ground quickly now, hairline is starting to become less defined. This is why im asking if someone has tried dutasteride in mesotherapy fomat. If that doesn't work im out of options. RU and CB are still dodgy chinese powders. CB isn't even easily availble, and RU gives people chest pain.. not a good view.

 

[John Difool]

Mesotherapy? Who cares? Why don't you start by swallowing Duta pills? Fina doesn't block isoforms of 5ar so that would be a big improvement already. If that works then you can always improve later with local injections at regular intervals.

 

[John Difool]

It is my belief based on observed evidence, not broscience.

Thanks for the laugh.

 

[JaneyElizabeth]

Are you honestly going to provide such a culturally irrelevant example as the standard by which the rest of modern civilization should be measured against? Really? Eunuchs aren't a prevalent population anymore, why even cite that?

Are you interested in understanding the nature of pattern hair loss in modern societies or are you trying to win a really lame argument via sophistry?

They are indeed a prevalent population. They are prostate cancer survivors and post-op transgender females qualify as eunuchs technically. Many regrow hair after surgery when given estrogen.

 

[John Difool]

Of course this has a limit because too much estrogen can induce loss as well,

Care to link a reputable scientific source?

 

[JaneyElizabeth]

Any thoughts on the three different enzymes responsible for DHT?

It always seemed as though finasteride was letting a lot of reductase through, although that is not a bad thing in itself. Are androgens in general bad for scalp hair? Noah implies this and it seems as though it is true.

DHT is inactivated in the liver and extrahepatic tissues like the skin into 3α-androstanediol and 3β-androstanediol by the enzymes 3α-hydroxysteroid dehydrogenase and 3β-hydroxysteroid dehydrogenase, respectively.[8][68] These metabolites are in turn converted, respectively, into androsterone and epiandrosterone, then conjugated (via glucuronidation and/or sulfation), released into circulation, and excreted in urine.[8]

Unlike testosterone, DHT cannot be aromatized into an estrogen like estradiol, and for this reason, has no propensity for estrogenic effects.

 

[franzliszt]

They are indeed a prevalent population. They are prostate cancer survivors and post-op transgender females qualify as eunuchs technically. Many regrow hair after surgery when given estrogen.

Hi, I noticed your regimen includes 5mg proscar and 0.5mg duta. what would you say th advantage is to using both finasteride and dutasteride, especially at such a high dose of finasteride?

 

[Jacob Williams]

Can anyone explain to me why it’s not recommended to apply estrogel directly to your problem areas? I understand that you can’t prevent it from going systemic and that to get full effect you really want it to go systemic, but I assume you’d still end up with more estrogen in your blood directly where it’s being applied as opposed to rubbing it on my inner arm or stomach.