Are spironolactone and minoxidil enough?

[Old Baldy]

Thanks for the info.! Looks like we should use 0.75 percent.

Thanks again!

according to their suggestion, 30mg finas (6 pills of proscar) for 40ml of their topical cream is equivalent to 45 mg finas (9 pills of proscar) for the whole 60 ml of 5% Lee's spironolactone ( 2 oz.)

do you agree?

Yes.

Clau: I mis-typed in my original post. The correct percentage is 0.075 percent. Sorry for the error.

Also, see Dave's suggestion, 0.025 percent is probably what we should start with. It should be adequate. I did more reading on topical finasteride. studies and 0.025 percent is ok.

Once again sorry for the error!!!

 

[Dave001]

Thanks for the info.! Looks like we should use 0.75 percent.

Thanks again!

according to their suggestion, 30mg finas (6 pills of proscar) for 40ml of their topical cream is equivalent to 45 mg finas (9 pills of proscar) for the whole 60 ml of 5% Lee's spironolactone ( 2 oz.)

do you agree?

Are you asking whether 30 mg/40 ml is equal to 45 mg/60 ml?

 

[Dave001]

Thanks for the info.! Looks like we should use 0.75 percent.

Did you mean to say 0.075%? You might start with 0.025% (w/w), depending on the total amount (i.e., vehicle) you'll typically use.

 

[Old Baldy]

Thanks for the info.! Looks like we should use 0.75 percent.

Did you mean to say 0.075%? You might start with 0.025% (w/w), depending on the total amount (i.e., vehicle) you'll typically use.

Ok. I don't want to "risk" getting the equivalent of 1mg in my system! I'll start with 0.025 percent. I will be spreading it over my entire horseshoe area afterall. (Also, I won't do this everyday, just now and then to throw those follicles a "curveball". )

Thanks again!! As usual, a good idea Dave.

Btw, YES I meant .075 percent!!! I'll edit my original post!!

 

[clau]

[quote="Old Baldy":6a5bf]Thanks for the info.! Looks like we should use 0.75 percent.

Thanks again!

according to their suggestion, 30mg finas (6 pills of proscar) for 40ml of their topical cream is equivalent to 45 mg finas (9 pills of proscar) for the whole 60 ml of 5% Lee's spironolactone ( 2 oz.)

do you agree?

Yes.

Clau: I mis-typed in my original post. The correct percentage is 0.075 percent. Sorry for the error.

Also, see Dave's suggestion, 0.025 percent is probably what we should start with. It should be adequate. I did more reading on topical finasteride. studies and 0.025 percent is ok.

Once again sorry for the error!!! [/quote:6a5bf]


I will try adding 3 pills of proscar to 5% Dr Lee's spironolactone
we 'll see

 

[Dave001]

Ok. I don't want to "risk" getting the equivalent of 1mg in my system! I'll start with 0.025 percent. I will be spreading it over my entire horseshoe area afterall. (Also, I won't do this everyday, just now and then to throw those follicles a "curveball". )

Thanks again!! As usual, a good idea Dave.

Btw, YES I meant .075 percent!!! I'll edit my original post!!

I also began using a 0.025% topical finasteride formulation about one week ago. The figure is admittedly a bit arbitrary, but there isn't much data to go from. It's mostly based on the threshold amount I'm willing to risk being absorbed systemically; and topical application of a 0.05% solution of finasteride resulted in significant drop of serum DHT in one of the studies.

Decreasing drug concentration in a given vehicle will lower its diffusion rate through the skin, and a cream based vehicle should have a better local delivery profile than a solution.

 

[mogadon]

sorry for dumb question, but can i just crush up 5mg proscar pills to a fine powder, and mix them in my dr.lee's spironolactone cream, how many do i put in a full jar would you say,to avoid systemic side effects, or could i just buy a commercial topical finasteride 0.025 product, when would i apply that before or arfter applying my spironolactone,and wait how long before applying,?

im not very teqniqual please answer if possible,
thanks.

also dave 001, do you have a link to your recent post on the subject you mentioned on the last page,
cheers

i am just trying to find the best topical anti-androgen regime, as i could not tolerate oral finasteride, due to terrible libido problems.

 

[Old Baldy]

Genhair uses 0.25 percent as did the researchers in the following study: (Edited to input the correct percentage Genhair uses. I originally posted 0.025 percent and this was incorrect.)

Endocr Pract. 2001 Jan-Feb;7(1):5-10.

"Finasteride cream in hirsutism"

Lucas KJ.

OBJECTIVE: To determine, in a preliminary study, whether women with hirsutism attributable to various causes would benefit from treatment with finasteride cream. METHODS: Finasteride cream (0.25%) and placebo cream were administered to eight women with various degrees of facial hirsutism. The two creams were used on opposite sides of the face in an area of excessive hair growth. The side chosen for the finasteride cream versus placebo was randomized and blinded. In a 1 cm2 area on each side of the face, hair counts were done every 2 months throughout the 6-month study period. Hair thickness was also measured. RESULTS: Hair follicles respond to testosterone by the conversion of this androgen to dihydrotestosterone through the action of 5a-reductase. Finasteride partially blocks this enzyme. Because of the easy solubility of this medication through the skin, a cream applied to the area of hair growth would be expected to decrease hirsutism locally. After a 6-month period, mean hair counts decreased significantly from 27.5 to 15.5 (P<0.05) in the finasteride-treated sites but showed no significant change from baseline in the placebo-applied sites. Moreover, the mean thickness of the measured hairs (in hundredths of millimeters) was significantly different between the placebo and finasteride-treated sites (4.33 versus 3.11, respectively; P<0.001). CONCLUSION: In this study of women with facial hirsutism, topically applied finasteride significantly decreased hair growth and thickness, and no adverse effects were noted.

 

[Dave001]

Genhair uses 0.025 percent as did the researchers in the following study:

Endocr Pract. 2001 Jan-Feb;7(1):5-10.

"Finasteride cream in hirsutism"

Lucas KJ.

OBJECTIVE: To determine, in a preliminary study, whether women with hirsutism attributable to various causes would benefit from treatment with finasteride cream. METHODS: Finasteride cream (0.25%)

OB, you're getting creative with the decimal places again.

 

[Old Baldy]

Genhair uses 0.025 percent as did the researchers in the following study:

Endocr Pract. 2001 Jan-Feb;7(1):5-10.

"Finasteride cream in hirsutism"

Lucas KJ.

OBJECTIVE: To determine, in a preliminary study, whether women with hirsutism attributable to various causes would benefit from treatment with finasteride cream. METHODS: Finasteride cream (0.25%)

OB, you're getting creative with the decimal places again.

No, but dumba** Old Baldy NEEDS to read studies he posts MORE CLOSELY.

Here's another "hit" on that study where the abstract states:

Int Dermatol 2001 Jan 40(1): 72-6

Finasteride cream in hirsutism

Finasteride partially block the enzyme 5 aplha reductase which converts testerosterone to dehydrostosterone. Finasteride cream 0.25% and placebo cream were administered to the opposite side of the face of facial hirsutism attributable to various courses. After 6 months period, mean hair counts, decreased significantly from 27.5 to 15.5 (P < 0.05) in the finasteride treated urea but showed no significant change from baseline in the placebo applied sites. Moreover, the mean thickness of the measured hairs was significantly less in finasteride treated side compared with placebo. (3.11 versus 4.33) respectively; P< 0.001). The authors concluded that finasteride cream significantly decreased hair growth and thickness in women with facial hirsutism and no adverse effects were noted.

Dave, I'm going to repost your second study here to get this into my THICK skull once and for all. (Dave, I pay much closer attention when I'm weighing my stuff for homemade concoctions. :lol: )

Here is Dave's posted "abstract" of the second study:

Price, T. M., S. Allen, et al. (2000). "Lack of effect of topical finasteride suggests an endocrine role for dihydrotestosterone." Fertility and Sterility 74(2): 414.

"Finasteride is structurally similar to testosterone and DHT and is freely soluble in chloroform and alcohol. The potential for percutaneous absorption of finasteride exists on the basis of its steroid structure (2), resulting in a Food and Drug Administration warning that pregnant women should not even handle broken tablets. Our study suggests that topical application of finasteride does not result in significant systemic absorption. Despite daily application of 2.5–5 mg of topical finasteride, there was no increase in circulating testosterone or decrease in DHT levels over 6 months. This observation would have been strengthened by the ability to verify finasteride levels in the solution or in the circulation." (emphasis mine)

Now let's assume we use Clau's original 45mg/60ml mix over a 30 day period. That would equate to 1.5mg per day.

Most likely, the 60ml cream would last more like 60 days and that would give us 0.75mg per day.

In your posted study Dave, either scenario would seem to be safe?

Using finasteride. at 0.025 percent we would have, if my math is correct :hairy:, 15mg of finasteride. in the 60ml mix. This would equate to 0.5mg per application assuming a 30 day scenario (or 0.25mg per application assuming a 60 day scenario).

In a nutshell, I think all of you can see that I'm back to "square one" relative to the percentage of finasteride. I should use.

So Dave, why are you and Genhair going with 0.025 percent. I'm obviously confused right now? (I understand Dave that your study didn't give the strength of the solution but the mg.'s of finasteride. applied were 2.5-5mg daily.)

If there's a probable chance that systemic asorption is minimal, why go with 0.025 percent? The studies showing results seem to use more. Or is it that 0.5mg per day, for example, should give results much like it does internally?

At the same time though, if topical finasteride. isn't getting absorbed much internally, I assume(?) we need to strengthen the dosage to make sure adequate amounts at least reach the DP part of the follicle?

 

[Dave001]

Here's another "hit" on that study where the abstract states:

Price, T. M., S. Allen, et al. (2000). "Lack of effect of topical finasteride suggests an endocrine role for dihydrotestosterone." Fertility and Sterility 74(2): 414.

[snip abstract]

Yeah, I'm not really confident enough that we can safely apply that study to our situation though. Well, it's rather that it must be weighed along with the other data, which give conflicting results. Namely, the study in which a 0.05% solution of topical finasteride was used to treat Androgenetic Alopecia showed a significant drop in serum dihydrotestosterone. (BTW, there is another topical finasteride study that almost no one knows about. I don't have the full text, but I suspect it's rubbish because an extremely low [almost "homeopathic"] concentration was used, and Androgenetic Alopecia was measured by hair *fallout* counts.)

The two main (non-statistical) variables as I see it are the *vehicle* and *site of application*. And of course the total amount. The only thing we can be completely certain of is that not *more* finasteride than is applied can be absorbed systemically. So decide how much you're willing to risk being systemically absorbed and multiply by 3.14159.

So Dave, why are you and Genhair going with 0.025 percent. I'm obviously confused right now? (I understand Dave that your study didn't give the strength of the solution but the mg.'s of finasteride. applied were 2.5-5mg daily.)

Who is Genhair? I don't recall offhand whether the concentration was specified in the study to which you refer.

If there's a probable chance that systemic asorption is minimal, why go with 0.025 percent? The studies showing results seem to use more. Or is it that 0.5mg per day, for example, should give results much like it does internally?

We don't know what the chance is. Assuming successful local delivery (which is of course what we're hoping for), the amount required for the scalp hair follicles would be only a tiny fraction of the oral dose.

At the same time though, if topical finasteride. isn't getting absorbed much internally, I assume(?) we need to strengthen the dosage to make sure adequate amounts at least reach the DP part of the follicle?

Following Fick's second law of diffusion, a higher concentration will diffuse faster through the skin, all else being equal.

 

[Old Baldy]

Ok Dave, thanks for all the info.

Did some reading on Fick's Law of Diffusion. Interesting stuff. I'll go back and read up on that "Law" now and then. Too technical for me to understand the first time I read it, however, I understood enough to appreciate what you said about the second law. Didn't know that.

Genhair is a company selling alot of different topicals. They sell various strengths of minoxidil. and one of the other topicals they sell is a 0.025 percent solution of finasteride.

I would guess Genhair used the same logic and Laws of Diffusion that you discuss in their determination. I'll use 0.025 percent of finasteride. in my mixes.

Thanks again for the info.!

 

[clau]

Genhair uses 0.025 percent as did the researchers in the following study:

Endocr Pract. 2001 Jan-Feb;7(1):5-10.

"Finasteride cream in hirsutism"

Lucas KJ.

OBJECTIVE: To determine, in a preliminary study, whether women with hirsutism attributable to various causes would benefit from treatment with finasteride cream. METHODS: Finasteride cream (0.25%) and placebo cream were administered to eight women with various degrees of facial hirsutism. The two creams were used on opposite sides of the face in an area of excessive hair growth. The side chosen for the finasteride cream versus placebo was randomized and blinded. In a 1 cm2 area on each side of the face, hair counts were done every 2 months throughout the 6-month study period. Hair thickness was also measured. RESULTS: Hair follicles respond to testosterone by the conversion of this androgen to dihydrotestosterone through the action of 5a-reductase. Finasteride partially blocks this enzyme. Because of the easy solubility of this medication through the skin, a cream applied to the area of hair growth would be expected to decrease hirsutism locally. After a 6-month period, mean hair counts decreased significantly from 27.5 to 15.5 (P<0.05) in the finasteride-treated sites but showed no significant change from baseline in the placebo-applied sites. Moreover, the mean thickness of the measured hairs (in hundredths of millimeters) was significantly different between the placebo and finasteride-treated sites (4.33 versus 3.11, respectively; P<0.001). CONCLUSION: In this study of women with facial hirsutism, topically applied finasteride significantly decreased hair growth and thickness, and no adverse effects were noted.

Hi Old Baldy,

A far as i know, GENHAIR is using: Finasteride 0.25% , Alcohol 20%, PPG 5% ,...not 0.025%

As a matter of fact Waseda suggests 30mg finas for 40ml of their lotion (45mg for 60ml Lee's 5% spironolactone) , that means 9 pills of proscar, is it too much ?

 

[Dave001]

Ok Dave, thanks for all the info.

Did some reading on Fick's Law of Diffusion. Interesting stuff. I'll go back and read up on that "Law" now and then. Too technical for me to understand the first time I read it, however, I understood enough to appreciate what you said about the second law. Didn't know that.

Genhair is a company selling alot of different topicals. They sell various strengths of minoxidil. and one of the other topicals they sell is a 0.025 percent solution of finasteride.

I would guess Genhair used the same logic and Laws of Diffusion that you discuss in their determination. I'll use 0.025 percent of finasteride. in my mixes.

Oh dear, no. We don't have the data necessary to calculate the exact rate of finasteride's diffusion through the skin. There are many variables. But you should have an intuitive understanding of the relationship between diffusion of matter and its concentration gradient.

 

[Old Baldy]

Ok Dave, thanks for all the info.

Did some reading on Fick's Law of Diffusion. Interesting stuff. I'll go back and read up on that "Law" now and then. Too technical for me to understand the first time I read it, however, I understood enough to appreciate what you said about the second law. Didn't know that.

Genhair is a company selling alot of different topicals. They sell various strengths of minoxidil. and one of the other topicals they sell is a 0.025 percent solution of finasteride.

I would guess Genhair used the same logic and Laws of Diffusion that you discuss in their determination. I'll use 0.025 percent of finasteride. in my mixes.

Oh dear, no. We don't have the data necessary to calculate the exact rate of finasteride's diffusion through the skin. There are many variables. But you should have an intuitive understanding of the relationship between diffusion of matter and its concentration gradient.

I understand, also went to the Genhair site and found I was getting "creative" with the decimal points AGAIN!!! They use 0.25 percent not 0.025 percent. (My God Old Baldy!! )

Dave, I went to the "horse's mouth" so to speak and copied an excerpt from Merck's patent filed in 2002, which includes a "recipe" for topical finasteride.

0033] For the treatment of androgenic alopecia including male pattern baldness, acne vulgaris, seborrhea, and female hirsutism, the 5.alpha.-reductase 2 inhibitor compounds may be administered in a pharmaceutical composition comprising the active compound in combination with a pharmaceutically acceptable carrier adapted for topical administration. Topical pharmaceutical compositions may be, e.g., in the form of a solution, cream, ointment, gel, lotion, shampoo or aerosol formulation adapted for application to the skin. Topical pharmaceutical compositions useful in the method of treatment of the present invention may include about 0.001% to 0.1% of the active compound in admixture with a pharmaceutically acceptable carrier.

Your suggested composition of 0.025 percent falls within that range and "intuitively" seems to be ok? (I think you're right with your 0.025 percent suggestion.)

I'll go back and get the link to the entire patent for you to (I assume) re-read, so you can let me know if I made ANOTHER mistake. LOL!

I can't get the link to work but paste the patent below in your search box and you'll get a "hit".

patent 20020042425

 

[clau]

hi Dave,

what are u using as carrier ? spironolactone cream ?

I m planing on adding 3 pills (15mg in 2oz => 0.025%) of proscar to full jar of Lee's spironolactone cream.

 

[mogadon]

hi Dave,

what are u using as carrier ? spironolactone cream ?

I m planing on adding 3 pills (15mg in 2oz => 0.025%) of proscar to full jar of Lee's spironolactone cream.

how would you do that, just crush them to a fine powder, and put them in the jar ect

if i bought 00.25 genhair topical finasteride, how would i use in conjuction with my spironolactone, put spironolactone cream on first, then topical finasteride, ect how long would i wait before applying the next one,?

or is it just better to crush some proscar pills up, into my sipro cream?

cant use oral finasteride because of libido problems

any chance someone could answer my questions in laymans terms,as im not very teqniqual
thanks

 

[clau]

hi Dave,

what are u using as carrier ? spironolactone cream ?

I m planing on adding 3 pills (15mg in 2oz => 0.025%) of proscar to full jar of Lee's spironolactone cream.

how would you do that, just crush them to a fine powder, and put them in the jar ect

if i bought 00.25 genhair topical finasteride, how would i use in conjuction with my spironolactone, put spironolactone cream on first, then topical finasteride, ect how long would i wait before applying the next one,?

or is it just better to crush some proscar pills up, into my sipro cream?

cant use oral finasteride because of libido problems

any chance someone could answer my questions in laymans terms,as im not very teqniqual
thanks

If your choice was genhair, i'd use genhair before spironolactone cream.
As for how long should u wait to apply spironolactone cream, it depends on genhair topical finasteride drying time and i dont have experience about that.
In my case, i gonna use proscar pills + spironolactone cream.

im wondering, why not Lee's 2% spironolactone or 5% CEM spironolactone ? it's easier to spread.

i will keep u posted

 

[Old Baldy]

hi Dave,

what are u using as carrier ? spironolactone cream ?

I m planing on adding 3 pills (15mg in 2oz => 0.025%) of proscar to full jar of Lee's spironolactone cream.

how would you do that, just crush them to a fine powder, and put them in the jar ect

if i bought 00.25 genhair topical finasteride, how would i use in conjuction with my spironolactone, put spironolactone cream on first, then topical finasteride, ect how long would i wait before applying the next one,?

or is it just better to crush some proscar pills up, into my sipro cream?

cant use oral finasteride because of libido problems

any chance someone could answer my questions in laymans terms,as im not very teqniqual
thanks

I remember reading in a "pharmaceutical" site that finasteride. does not react badly with spironolactone. They can be mixed together in the same cream.

I mixed some in a homemade cream two weeks ago with spironolactone. and there is no bad odor whatsoever. That doesn't PROVE what I read at that site but it gives a good indication that the two drugs don't react badly with each other.

You can use any neutral cream available. A classic would be neutrogena neutral cream available everywhere. It's a good, inexpensive cream.

Dermovan and Dermabase are great also but harder to find. Another good cream available everywhere is Cetaphil. Doctor Proctor's patents state explicitly that Cetaphil is a good carrier for medications.

 

[clau]

Thx, Old Baldy.

As a matter of fact, this site
http://hairsite2.com/waseda/antiandrocream/main.htm

suggests use of finasteride . along with Lee's spironolactone cream.