brian liles
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are DHT levels of a person taking finasteride almost on par with a person being castrated?
DHT levels
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Finasteride lowers DHT levels by roughly 65%, but does not significantly affect Testosterone. Castration lowers T (and therefore DHT levels) significantly. IIRC, castration lowers T levels (and DHT) by somewhere around 90%. Dutasteride lowers DHT by this level, so taking dutasteride might result in castrate DHT levels.
Castration would likely cure hair loss for much of your life, but it would also cause a whole whack of other problems.
Castration would likely cure hair loss for much of your life, but it would also cause a whole whack of other problems.
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brian liles said:
Yes. I have a study which measured testosterone and DHT levels in the blood before-and-after castration, and DHT dropped by an amount which was very similar to what finasteride users get. Testosterone dropped by about 95%, by the way, although I've also seen another study in which it dropped by only about 90% or so.
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kehcorpz
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Don't worry about all the fear mongering. There is no published well designed double-blind studies that show finasteride lowers testosterone to castrating levels. Most studies that have been published and were well designed show the majority of men getting an increase in testosterone. This is what mercks studies also show. This is even what my blood tests have proven. While dht does get significantly lowered it is not necessarily a bad thing as long as your testosterone is fine. Castrating lowers DHT simply as a result of lack of testosterone. You cannot have DHT without testosterone, plain and simple. DHT is responsible for a lot of your gender traits throughout puberty but typically levels even out after and its role is not as significant. This is why finasteride is not recommended for anyone that is under 21.
There are however a small percentage of men who will get a lowered level of testosterone as they are prone to having more aromatase enzyme which results in higher estrogen increases. This is purely a genetic issue and typically accounts for the majority of the small percentage with bad side effects. These people were merely more balanced due to the fact that the 5-ar enzyme was stopping the aromatase from taking over as it has a higher affinity for testosterone. With these types of minimal cases it is better not to use finasteride, one may go down the path of getting an anti-aromatase but this is not a smart choice as there are many health repercussions.
There are however a small percentage of men who will get a lowered level of testosterone as they are prone to having more aromatase enzyme which results in higher estrogen increases. This is purely a genetic issue and typically accounts for the majority of the small percentage with bad side effects. These people were merely more balanced due to the fact that the 5-ar enzyme was stopping the aromatase from taking over as it has a higher affinity for testosterone. With these types of minimal cases it is better not to use finasteride, one may go down the path of getting an anti-aromatase but this is not a smart choice as there are many health repercussions.
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kehcorpz
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Bryan said:
I think you need to read what I said. You obviously don't understand biochemistry. Testosterone is the reason why DHT is present. Without it it won't exist. The reason castration kills all DHT is because there's no longer any endogenous testosterone being produced. It's testosterone that is the culprit involved in castration. So you can't compare the two to scare people. You can have completely healthy libido with very little DHT if none present. You only need DHT to develop proper sexual organs and thereafter it inhibits the formation of estrogen and having a high amount will not help the majority of people but rather cause problems. It can however stop estrogen from forming in some people and is the only reason their estrogen is kept at bay. Once again this is a small percentage of the population.
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kehcorpz said:
You seem even more confused than you did the first time. Once again, the original poster was talking about levels of DHT, and how they change in response to finasteride. I mentioned the study that was done before-and-after castration, and only mentioned testosterone as an "oh-by-the-way". You can stop going on and on about how DHT comes from testosterone, which everybody already knows.
And by the way, castration doesn't "kill all DHT". It reduces it by about the same amount as finasteride.
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Bryan said:
What do you think of this?
Myth: Finasteride lowers testosterone
Fact: The medication, on average, causes a rise in serum testosterone levels by 9%.
http://www.bernsteinmedical.com/medical ... nasteride/
Scroll all the way down to the page. It shows the myth's and facts of finasteride.
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kehcorpz
Guest
Bryan said:
Yes, he was talking about DHT levels because all the trolls on the internet compare finasteride to castrated males when it is simply not true. I am telling him not to worry about it as testosterone levels go up and castrated males have lower dht as a result of lower testosterone, which is not a problem with finasteride. And castrated males do not compare even when it comes to DHT. Finasteride simply reduces the dht by about 65% which is just enough to reverse damage of male pattern baldness. DHT exists in many tissues not just scalp sebaceous glands.
Stop reading non-sense on the internet.
Below is the FDA study on finasteride.
http://www.accessdata.fda.gov/drugsatfd ... 8s3lbl.pdf
Here's a study on castrated men that notes testosterone levels:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15820970
16+/-5 tesosterone available for conversion.
The metabolic clearance rate and origin of plasma dihydrotestosterone in man and its conversion to the 5?-androstanediols
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC292065/
So 4% of that doesn't leave you with much DHT.
A typical adult male has 30-85ng/dl of DHT.
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kehcorpz said:
I'm not sure what you're talking about when you mention "trolls" on the Internet that compare finasteride users to castrated males. We used to get the occasional post from people who wonder and speculate about why castrated men have what appears to be a TOTAL suppression of male pattern baldness that apparently lasts for life, but for years I've always said that that's probably due to a more complete suppression of androgens than just what you get with finasteride. Castration causes about the same DHT suppression as finasteride, but causes a very striking reduction of testosterone, compared to what you get with finasteride (which actually tends to go UP a little).
kehcorpz said:
Yeah, yeah, yeah. As I said before, we all know this. (Except I have to correct that one statement you made above: castrated males do compare to finasteride users, in one specific regard. They have about the same blood levels of DHT.)
kehcorpz said:
HUH?? What on earth are you talking about? :dunno: I don't "read nonsense" on the Internet. Everything I've said here is true and accurate.
K
kehcorpz
Guest
Bryan said:
Anyways, I'm not trying to sound like an *** but I just don't see the evidence.
Note in the studies I posted and based off some simple math. DHT levels in men on finasteride is 13.5-38.25 ng/dl. DHT in castrated men 0.44-0.84 ng/dl.
brian liles
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From what I have read, castration stops hair loss however, castration will not regrow hair that has been lost. If this is true, why would finasteride grow any hair? It is my understanding Propeica blocks a percentage of DHT, which leads to the effectiveness of the product. If someone has been castrated there is way way less DHT and still no hair regrowth?
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brian liles said:
I've already talked about these issues on TWO separate occasions, right here in this very same thread!
I've talked about the study I have which measured before-and-after levels of DHT in the blood from castration, and found levels which were similar to what finasteride users have.And here's a repeat of what I said above comparing castration to finasteride usage: I'm not sure what you're talking about when you mention "trolls" on the Internet that compare finasteride users to castrated males. We used to get the occasional post from people who wonder and speculate about why castrated men have what appears to be a TOTAL suppression of male pattern baldness that apparently lasts for life, but for years I've always said that that's probably due to a more complete suppression of androgens than just what you get with finasteride. Castration causes about the same DHT suppression as finasteride, but causes a very striking reduction of testosterone, compared to what you get with finasteride (which actually tends to go UP a little).
I suspect that if early testers of castration (like James Hamilton) had used the same modern methods of measuring hair growth that they use with things like finasteride, they would have found similar (or maybe even GREATER) hair regrowth from the castration.
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I finally found that study which I referred to earlier in this thread. It took me a while to find it, because it was near the bottom of my Study Stack!
I certainly won't copy the whole thing, but I'll copy enough to show what I've been saying over and over in this thread: castrated individuals have blood DHT levels which are pretty similar to those of finasteride users! This is the study I've been talking about: "Effect of Orchidectomy on Serum Concentrations of Testosterone and Dihdrotestosterone in Patients with Prostatic Cancer", Hardy F. Rohl and Hans-Peter Beuke, Scand J Urol Nephrol 26: 11-14, 1992.
They have a table listing all the before-and-after testosterone and DHT levels of their 84 patients, but I think it'll be sufficient just to copy the first couple of sentences from their Discussion section near the end: "Serum concentrations of TT [they mean testosterone] and DHT in patients with untreated prostatic cancer were in the same range as reported elsewhere (7, 12, 13) [I won't bother to reproduce their own references]. After orchidectomy the serum concentration of TT decreased by 95%, while that of DHT was reduced by only 70%; this led to a significant change in the DHT:TT ratio after ochidectomy..."
So you can see what I'm talking about: the 70% reduction of DHT after castration is almost identical to what finasteride users get!
I certainly won't copy the whole thing, but I'll copy enough to show what I've been saying over and over in this thread: castrated individuals have blood DHT levels which are pretty similar to those of finasteride users! This is the study I've been talking about: "Effect of Orchidectomy on Serum Concentrations of Testosterone and Dihdrotestosterone in Patients with Prostatic Cancer", Hardy F. Rohl and Hans-Peter Beuke, Scand J Urol Nephrol 26: 11-14, 1992.
They have a table listing all the before-and-after testosterone and DHT levels of their 84 patients, but I think it'll be sufficient just to copy the first couple of sentences from their Discussion section near the end: "Serum concentrations of TT [they mean testosterone] and DHT in patients with untreated prostatic cancer were in the same range as reported elsewhere (7, 12, 13) [I won't bother to reproduce their own references]. After orchidectomy the serum concentration of TT decreased by 95%, while that of DHT was reduced by only 70%; this led to a significant change in the DHT:TT ratio after ochidectomy..."
So you can see what I'm talking about: the 70% reduction of DHT after castration is almost identical to what finasteride users get!
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kehcorpz
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Are you able to post the whole study as an attachment? I can't seem to gain access to the full text. My biggest problem is that without seeing the full thing I can't verify a bunch of parameters. DHT is also known to fall at a much slower rate after castration. Now true castration would be a bilateral orchiectomy. Orchidectomy doesn't really mean much, it could be 1 testicle, it can be a portion of tissue. And like with most things in science there is a lot of conflicting information. The tendency for a group of people to promote 1 study over countless other studies is very well known when it is biased towards their own opinion.
I mean there are people who believe not masturbating helps with baldness when it actually has the opposite effect of increasing testosterone. heh
Now, even if this study is the de-facto for castrated men and hormone levels, it would simply prove that castration barely impacts DHT compared to testosterone. This would then argue that low DHT levels have nothing to do with manliness since you can still maintain 40% of your dht levels without testicles. And the fear behind having low DHT levels is that it will somehow make men less manly. Furthermore, the mechanism by which finasteride stops dht would be through 5-alpha reductase II enzyme which will not deplete your tissues of DHT that is required to sustain other processes as your body has other mechanisms to compensate.
One could argue that finasteride makes you more manly as the very hormone that is drained after your testicles are removed is increased when finasteride is taken. It's like getting a 3rd testicle implanted in your sack.
I mean there are people who believe not masturbating helps with baldness when it actually has the opposite effect of increasing testosterone. heh
Now, even if this study is the de-facto for castrated men and hormone levels, it would simply prove that castration barely impacts DHT compared to testosterone. This would then argue that low DHT levels have nothing to do with manliness since you can still maintain 40% of your dht levels without testicles. And the fear behind having low DHT levels is that it will somehow make men less manly. Furthermore, the mechanism by which finasteride stops dht would be through 5-alpha reductase II enzyme which will not deplete your tissues of DHT that is required to sustain other processes as your body has other mechanisms to compensate.
One could argue that finasteride makes you more manly as the very hormone that is drained after your testicles are removed is increased when finasteride is taken. It's like getting a 3rd testicle implanted in your sack.
brian liles
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regarding masturbation and t levels
Does masturbating increase testosterone levels?
In:Masturbation [Edit categories]
Answer:
.
Effect of Ejaculation (Sex) on Bodybuilding Gains
September 30th, 2007 by Paul Johnson
The question on whether ejaculation(or sex) before workouts will effect their strength or muscle gains, is a common question for many bodybuilders. Athletes have also have been debating this question for years. Some believe that ejaculation before an athletic event will help their performance, while others believe it should be done after or even abstained completely. In this article I will discuss the hormonal effects of ejaculation on the body and when(or if) it should be avoided
Effects on testosterone during sexual arousal and ejaculation:
Testosterone level have been found in research to rise in humans after sexual stimuli (such as sexually explicit pictures). One study like this was published in New Scientist 22 Aug 98 11, done by Ludwig Boltzmann Institute for Urban Ethology in Vienna. 10 men and 10 women viewed a 15 minute pornographic film. Men's testosterone levels increased 100 percent afterwards, while women's was 80 percent.
Another study published by Psychoneuroendocrinology. 1993;18(3):205-18 used sexually arousing films on 9 males. LH levels (stimulates testosterone production) and testosterone levels increased within 10 minutes of sexually arousal. Other studies have also shown, other types of stimuli may also increase testosterone levels and agression, such as holding a gun.
Studies dealing with testosterone levels and it's effects during sexual acts and ejaculation, seem to be mostly done on animals. One study done on rats by the Instituto de Neuroetologia, Universidad Veracruzana, Xalapa, Ver., Mexico showed that after 2 ejaculations there was a steep rise in serum testosterone and remained higher even after 4 ejaculations in a row. Another study was done on stallions and mating by the Dipartimento di Scienze Cliniche Veterinarie, Sez. Clinica Ostetrica e Ginecologica Veterinaria. They found that testosterone levels rised 10 minutes after mating and then again 30 minutes into it. Cortisol levels also increased during the mating.
A study by Department of Pharmacobiology, Centro de Investigación y Estudios Avanzados was done on rats to measure sexual satiety and androgen receptors. The rats were measured after a sexual encounter. They measured the testosterone levels afterwards and found no change. They also measured a drop in angrodren receptor density, in the MPOA-medial part of the brain. This receptor density returned 72 hours later. It appears from this study, the lack of sexual desire post ejaculation, may have been from changes in the brain, not from changes in testosterone.
A study by the Department of Reproductive Biology, Universidad Autonoma Metropolitana-Iztapalapa found that testosterone levels stayed the same or rised, after various types of sexual encounters in male rats. The more experienced rats had a large increase in testosterone post-ejaculation, which remained even 24 hours afterwards. The sexually inexperienced rats however, had little change in testosterone post sexual encounter. This study suggests that sexual experience and execution, may play a role in the rise of testosterone.
Long term testosterone levels from abstaining ejaculation:
The only study I could find measuring testosterone levels of men who didn't ejaculation for extended periods of time, was research done by Chinese researchers, J Zhejiang Univ Sci. 2003 Mar-Apr;4(2):236-40. The study was done on 28 men who were told to not ejaculate for entire week. It was found that for first 6 days testosterone levels did not change. However, on the 7th day of abstaining, testosterone levels jumped up by nearly 50%. It then declined quickly after that day, therefore abstaining from ejaculation had no long term rising effect.
Summary:
What do these studies on animals and humans tell us about the relationship between testosterone and sexual activity? Many people have always assumed that after sexual activity, males experience a drop in testosterone levels. There is no research we could find that points to a significant drop in testosterone post-ejaculation. In fact research tells us that the opposite seems to be true. Men will have significant jumps in testosterone levels from sexually arousing stimuli(and certain other types of stimuli). The research also suggests that sexual encounters and ejaculation, will not effect and may increase, testosterone blood levels.
Viewing sexually arousing material, without ejaculating, before working out should be beneficial for improving workouts. Ejaculating before working out, would probably not be ideal, since ejaculation also releases endorphins(pain killing) natural hormones in the body. This would in turn effect your strength and energy before your workout.
The Chinese study also suggests that abstaining from ejaculation will not increase your testosterone levels long term and hence, not improve your bodybuilding gains. Recent studies are also showing a significant drop in prostate cancer risk, for men who more frequently ejaculate. According to current research, ejaculation (or sex) is not going to lower your testosterone levels, in either the short term or long term.
Read more: http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Does_masturba ... z1wx9CtyWS
Does masturbating increase testosterone levels?
In:Masturbation [Edit categories]
Answer:
.
Effect of Ejaculation (Sex) on Bodybuilding Gains
September 30th, 2007 by Paul Johnson
The question on whether ejaculation(or sex) before workouts will effect their strength or muscle gains, is a common question for many bodybuilders. Athletes have also have been debating this question for years. Some believe that ejaculation before an athletic event will help their performance, while others believe it should be done after or even abstained completely. In this article I will discuss the hormonal effects of ejaculation on the body and when(or if) it should be avoided
Effects on testosterone during sexual arousal and ejaculation:
Testosterone level have been found in research to rise in humans after sexual stimuli (such as sexually explicit pictures). One study like this was published in New Scientist 22 Aug 98 11, done by Ludwig Boltzmann Institute for Urban Ethology in Vienna. 10 men and 10 women viewed a 15 minute pornographic film. Men's testosterone levels increased 100 percent afterwards, while women's was 80 percent.
Another study published by Psychoneuroendocrinology. 1993;18(3):205-18 used sexually arousing films on 9 males. LH levels (stimulates testosterone production) and testosterone levels increased within 10 minutes of sexually arousal. Other studies have also shown, other types of stimuli may also increase testosterone levels and agression, such as holding a gun.
Studies dealing with testosterone levels and it's effects during sexual acts and ejaculation, seem to be mostly done on animals. One study done on rats by the Instituto de Neuroetologia, Universidad Veracruzana, Xalapa, Ver., Mexico showed that after 2 ejaculations there was a steep rise in serum testosterone and remained higher even after 4 ejaculations in a row. Another study was done on stallions and mating by the Dipartimento di Scienze Cliniche Veterinarie, Sez. Clinica Ostetrica e Ginecologica Veterinaria. They found that testosterone levels rised 10 minutes after mating and then again 30 minutes into it. Cortisol levels also increased during the mating.
A study by Department of Pharmacobiology, Centro de Investigación y Estudios Avanzados was done on rats to measure sexual satiety and androgen receptors. The rats were measured after a sexual encounter. They measured the testosterone levels afterwards and found no change. They also measured a drop in angrodren receptor density, in the MPOA-medial part of the brain. This receptor density returned 72 hours later. It appears from this study, the lack of sexual desire post ejaculation, may have been from changes in the brain, not from changes in testosterone.
A study by the Department of Reproductive Biology, Universidad Autonoma Metropolitana-Iztapalapa found that testosterone levels stayed the same or rised, after various types of sexual encounters in male rats. The more experienced rats had a large increase in testosterone post-ejaculation, which remained even 24 hours afterwards. The sexually inexperienced rats however, had little change in testosterone post sexual encounter. This study suggests that sexual experience and execution, may play a role in the rise of testosterone.
Long term testosterone levels from abstaining ejaculation:
The only study I could find measuring testosterone levels of men who didn't ejaculation for extended periods of time, was research done by Chinese researchers, J Zhejiang Univ Sci. 2003 Mar-Apr;4(2):236-40. The study was done on 28 men who were told to not ejaculate for entire week. It was found that for first 6 days testosterone levels did not change. However, on the 7th day of abstaining, testosterone levels jumped up by nearly 50%. It then declined quickly after that day, therefore abstaining from ejaculation had no long term rising effect.
Summary:
What do these studies on animals and humans tell us about the relationship between testosterone and sexual activity? Many people have always assumed that after sexual activity, males experience a drop in testosterone levels. There is no research we could find that points to a significant drop in testosterone post-ejaculation. In fact research tells us that the opposite seems to be true. Men will have significant jumps in testosterone levels from sexually arousing stimuli(and certain other types of stimuli). The research also suggests that sexual encounters and ejaculation, will not effect and may increase, testosterone blood levels.
Viewing sexually arousing material, without ejaculating, before working out should be beneficial for improving workouts. Ejaculating before working out, would probably not be ideal, since ejaculation also releases endorphins(pain killing) natural hormones in the body. This would in turn effect your strength and energy before your workout.
The Chinese study also suggests that abstaining from ejaculation will not increase your testosterone levels long term and hence, not improve your bodybuilding gains. Recent studies are also showing a significant drop in prostate cancer risk, for men who more frequently ejaculate. According to current research, ejaculation (or sex) is not going to lower your testosterone levels, in either the short term or long term.
Read more: http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Does_masturba ... z1wx9CtyWS
K
kehcorpz
Guest
There's a lot of conflicting evidence. The study where abstinence caused an increase in 7 days was not sufficient enough to see impact on endocrine after homeostasis. Note study below that uses a 3 week span noting response in testosterone. Abstinence eventually balances out and overall testosterone is maintained at a higher rate. This study also found that after masturbation testosterone levels did not change. It would more than likely require a routine where you are consistently masturbating to lower testosterone levels again as the body adapts.
I've been lifting weights for many years and if I abstain for a few weeks my strength is insanely improved, i'm more confident and aggressive which may be why many Olympians abstain.
We are a species that needs to reproduce, this may be one of our only purposes in life despite what we would think otherwise. We've evolved to seek out potential mates and testosterone increases will make you more aggressive in such a pursuit.
If you get to a point where you are avoiding masturbating or having sexual encounters then what's the point of having hair in the first place? That would be quite a hell of a life to live. Not to mention stressing about it that badly will probably not contribute to your hair.
I've been lifting weights for many years and if I abstain for a few weeks my strength is insanely improved, i'm more confident and aggressive which may be why many Olympians abstain.
We are a species that needs to reproduce, this may be one of our only purposes in life despite what we would think otherwise. We've evolved to seek out potential mates and testosterone increases will make you more aggressive in such a pursuit.
If you get to a point where you are avoiding masturbating or having sexual encounters then what's the point of having hair in the first place? That would be quite a hell of a life to live. Not to mention stressing about it that badly will probably not contribute to your hair.
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kehcorpz said:
No, I only have a paper copy of it which was made at a medical library. Sorry.
kehcorpz said:
They have a table in the study which shows DHT levels up to a full year after the orchiectomy. After a full 12 months, the level was down by 69.7% of the original pre-treatment level (just like with finasteride).
Furthermore, these were all apparently bilateral orchiectomies. The fact that testosterone levels were down by 95% seems to prove that.