Dr. Tsuji Kyocera, Riken Research, Organ Technologies Form Regenerative Hair Research Team

Eren

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Yeah that's what I meant, on the whole head there are 100k+ hairs.

If what whatevr says is right - that they will be able to mass reproduce an unlimited amount of cell germs, enough to fully restore with maximum density not only the classic bald top of the head but every last area of the scalp should you desire it, well that would virtually be a total cure, taking everyone back to adolescent-like density across the whole scalp, from the forelock to the nape.

If however they can produce say around 10,000 or so hair follicles per skin biopsy, while that would undoubtedly be amazing and beat hair transplants hands down, it wouldn't be as clean or total a solution as having unlimited (100k) follicles at your disposal. You would still end up having less dense areas among your high density areas and nowhere would it come close to matching your original density.

So you see, there is a clear difference between these two outcomes which I hope you will appreciate.

I have yet to hear Dr. Tsuji use the word "unlimited" to describe what he aims to do, but maybe it has been implied in other ways or he will use this word in the future. I hope so!

I know, if I want to have a full head of hair, with great quality (not weak lame sh-t), I need to get the sides filled, the nape area (above neck and ears) and the entire NW7 area (including the upper part of my back of the head). So, I am one those unlucky ones who aren't even hair transplant candidates yet.

But if this works out, even men like me could get a hair transplant (not necessarily to get a full head, but at least cosmetically a thick mane).
 

MihailV

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Yeah that's what I meant, on the whole head there are 100k+ hairs.

If what whatevr says is right - that they will be able to mass reproduce an unlimited amount of cell germs, enough to fully restore with maximum density not only the classic bald top of the head but every last area of the scalp should you desire it, well that would virtually be a total cure, taking everyone back to adolescent-like density across the whole scalp, from the forelock to the nape.

If however they can produce say around 10,000 or so hair follicles per skin biopsy, while that would undoubtedly be amazing and beat hair transplants hands down, it wouldn't be as clean or total a solution as having unlimited (100k) follicles at your disposal. You would still end up having less dense areas among your high density areas and nowhere would it come close to matching your original density.

So you see, there is a clear difference between these two outcomes which I hope you will appreciate.

I have yet to hear Dr. Tsuji use the word "unlimited" to describe what he aims to do, but maybe it has been implied in other ways or he will use this word in the future. I hope so!

If you would inject cells in the same area used as donor wouldn't the limit be infinite ?
 

hilbert

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I'm not an optimist overall, but I like seeing naysayers completely short of (valid) counter-arguments on this one, but still keeping their negative position :)
 

hellouser

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I'm not an optimist overall, but I like seeing naysayers completely short of (valid) counter-arguments on this one, but still keeping their negative position :)

LOL, it's entertaining, isn't it?
 

Billy-D2016

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If you would inject cells in the same area used as donor wouldn't the limit be infinite ?
If this works, it literally means you can use a small sample of hair from your scalp and create an unlimited amount of follicle primordiums ready to inject ie unlimited hair
 

stump

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A huge problem with this treatment is going to be the possibility of pili multigemini when injecting the primordium in areas that already have hair. I'm interested to see how they plan to mitigate the risk, or if they've even considered the issue.

@Swoop is this an actual concern? There is only so much area for hairs to pop up in..
 

thomps1523

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Maybe someone can answer this for me... If the price is as high as swoop is projecting, what happes if you are an nw3, get this treatment, and then regress at the nw3-nw4? I just wonder how that prove point could make this treatment very doable?
 

Torin

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Maybe someone can answer this for me... If the price is as high as swoop is projecting, what happes if you are an nw3, get this treatment, and then regress at the nw3-nw4? I just wonder how that prove point could make this treatment very doable?

It depends, but I hope they would be happy to treat the whole scalp including diffuse or unaffected areas.

Apparently the hair density on a human scalp can range from 130 to 400 per cm2! That means 400 hairs CAN fit on just 1cm2 of scalp skin.

Most people don't have anywhere near 400 per cm2. Based on Tsuji's mouse model, he can pack at least 128 hairs per cm2, which incidentally he said was the average hair density in the Japanese population.

So in theory, it should be possible to injected areas that have normal hair density and just make them denser. Then if you lost the native hair later, you would still have the 128 cloned hairs per cm2.

However, like others I would like to know what is the possibility of pili multigemini occurring. That would put a huge spanner in the works in terms of treating already haired areas.

If Dr. Tsuji says there are no chances of this happening, then the possibility of injecting all areas of the scalp should be completely feasable.
 

pegasus2

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If youre NW3 just get a regular transplant and then do this if you lose the rest.
I'd rather not have a thin and scarred donor region. This seems like it will be able to provide a more natural looking hairline too, and with less risk of complication.
 

tdag

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I'd rather not have a thin and scarred donor region. This seems like it will be able to provide a more natural looking hairline too, and with less risk of complication.

Maybe, I was just saying worse case scenario, if this all pans out there will be plenty of decent options. A NW3 can probably get decent results with a small to moderate FUE session without having too much impact on the donor region. Then you would have this as insurance if you continue to lose your hair. The main thing is for those willing to pay there is no reason anybody who doesnt want to be will have to be bald.
 

Torin

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Yes this would no doub
Why? You'll still be able to get a full head of thick hair.

If the donor hair is weak, it stands to follow that the clones will be weak, too. That's if the clones inherit shortened telomeres.


Telomeric differences
As cells divide, their chromosomes get shorter. This is because the DNA sequences at both ends of a chromosome, called telomeres, shrink in length every time the DNA is copied. The older the animal is, the shorter its telomeres will be, because the cells have divided many, many times. This is a natural part of aging.

So, what happens to the clone if its transferred nucleus is already pretty old? Will the shortened telomeres affect its development or lifespan?

When scientists looked at the telomere lengths of cloned animals, they found no clear answers. Chromosomes from cloned cattle or mice had longer telomeres than normal. These cells showed other signs of youth and seemed to have an extended lifespan compared with cells from a naturally conceived cow. On the other hand, Dolly the sheep's chromosomes had shorter telomere lengths than normal. This means that Dolly's cells were aging faster than the cells from a normal sheep.

To date, scientists aren't sure why cloned animals show differences in telomere length.

http://learn.genetics.utah.edu/content/cloning/cloningrisks/

telomeres.png



I sincerely hope Dr. Takashi Tsuji and his clinicians will offer to replenish the donor area full of cloned hairs from the strongest hairs found on the back of the scalp. That way if you needed further treatment down the line, they could extract more of these cloned strong hairs.

This would be particularly important for: a) people with weak donor areas where strong hairs are in short supply and b) individuals who have had hair transplants and have depleted donor areas.

I hope the at the Riken image showing only the slick bald top of the scalp being treated is only to give an illustrative idea of what they are hoping for and is not the whole picture.

For this approach to be truely conclusive for all types of hair loss sufferers, it needs to treat ALL areas of the scalp, either as a matter of course or if the patient wants it.

Here is the illustration. Note it shows only the top being regenerated:

o-MOUSE-BALD-570.jpg


What seems to be the plan:

hair-growing.png



What needs to be the plan:

hair_growing.jpg



In fact this matter is so important that we should consider writing a forum group email to Dr. Tsuji, pleading with him to test his method on the entire head. Maybe Dr. Takashi doesn't realise that this matters to us (the consumers) and we should let him know!

If this cloning treatment came out and their system was to only treat the top of the head and crown and they only replicated cells for this assignment, neglecting the supposed "indestructible" horseshoe (not true!), many of us with thin sides and thin donor areas would feel sorely disappointed and this would only amount to a half cure where the top is effectively cured with thick new hairs but the other areas making up your scalp remained underwhelmingly battered and thin.
 

Eren

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@Torin

Generally, donor does not weaken much over time.

Even if it does, its quality is MUCH better than weak male pattern baldness hair. Weak donor hair still is much stronger than weak hair due to male pattern baldness. I should know, I have both.

But you are right about not being able to get the EXACT hair characteristics you once had before male pattern baldness if 100% of your donor area is affected, at least not with this procedure.

But then again, finding just a 'handful' of hairs that are untouched by male pattern baldness should not be so hard even in the case of a weakened donor area. Mostly, not 100% of the hair in the donor area is weakened.

Nonetheless, you would get results that are very pleasing for virtually everyone.
 

Torin

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you are obsessing over a trivial, and quite frankly, nonexisting concern. Of course if the process works they will apply it wherever people want. if people want it applied to the sides and back of the head then they'll do it because they are getting paid to do it. In fact, i'll bet you if someone walked in to the office and said they wanted this process applied to their beard/eyebrows or even chest hair they would do it. Do you know how i know this? Because they would get paid for it.

That is the wonderfully predictable nature of capitalism.


They would still need to replicate enough cells and frankly who knows how many follicles they can create from just a single scalp biopsy? Maybe it would be enough for the top of the scalp but not for everywhere else.

Also they would need to see how cloned hairs grow in different areas of the scalp.

If they don't start on the assumption that people will want a full scalp regeneration, they may only make provisions to multiplicate cell germs for the top and crown.

You would then end up needing another chunk of flesh removed to treat the back and sides and paying for the procedure twice. Not good.

That is why they should be thinking about treating the whole head from the get go.

Doing this now would lead to a more comprehensive treatment and better overall deal for us in the future.

I'm just not sure they are aware this is what we want.
 
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Billy-D2016

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They would still need to replicate enough cells and frankly who knows how many follicles they can create from just a single scalp biopsy? Maybe it would be enough for the top of the scalp but not for everywhere else.

Also they would need to see how cloned hairs grow in different areas of the scalp.

If they don't start on the assumption that people will want a full scalp regeneration, they may only make provisions to multiplicate cell germs for the top and crown.

You would then end up needing another chunk of flesh removed to treat the back and sides and paying for the procedure twice. Not good.

That is why they should be thinking about treating the whole head from the get go.

Doing this now would lead to a more comprehensive treatment and better overall deal for us in the future.

I'm just not sure they are aware this is what we want.
It's still early days. There is a lot we will find out in the coming years. However it may be possible to store derived stemcells from a single scalp biopsy incase of continued hairloss so for example if a nw5 has a biopsy from the donor area, the cells may be stored just incase he losses more hair and needs a touch up in the future. This would eliminate the needs for continuous biopies and subsequent scarring. This is just an assumption however
 

Pray The Bald Away

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They would still need to replicate enough cells and frankly who knows how many follicles they can create from just a single scalp biopsy? Maybe it would be enough for the top of the scalp but not for everywhere else.

Also they would need to see how cloned hairs grow in different areas of the scalp.

If they don't start on the assumption that people will want a full scalp regeneration, they may only make provisions to multiplicate cell germs for the top and crown.

You would then end up needing another chunk of flesh removed to treat the back and sides and paying for the procedure twice. Not good.

That is why they should be thinking about treating the whole head from the get go.

Doing this now would lead to a more comprehensive treatment and better overall deal for us in the future.

I'm just not sure they are aware this is what we want.
As long as pili multigemini is not an issue you will be fine. If it is an issue, your donor hair is fucked. That should be what we find out.
 
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