Exploring The Hormonal Route. Hair=life.

[franzliszt]

We will all be following your usage of another 'mide with great interest and I hope that everything went well for you.

Thanks, no seizures to report yet.

 

[franzliszt]

My post on a MtF reddit forum was recently brought up on this forum. I am currently 23 years old and have been suffering from hair loss since I was 17. I have tried all of the common treatments over the years and currently take 1mg Finasteride and 5mg oral minoxidil once daily (most effective/least side effect regimen IMO).

Although I have recovered a decent amount of hair, and halted further recession (for now) the quality of my hair is not where I want it to be nor where I think I can get it with a well thought out treatment.

I am a cis male and have no intention of transitioning into a female but have seen (a few) incredible results of complete reversal with the use of Anti-Androgens and Estrogen therapy. Is it possible achieve this type of regrowth without nuking my T levels and growing breasts? Has anyone had luck with this and if so, what would a regimen of that nature look like?

You could try topical bicalutamide and estrogel if you want to limit the systemic sides, the oral route will always be more effective though.

 

[NickGardner0651]

Has anyone had any success using topical estrogel or bicalutamide?

 

[tato123]

Nice bro!Your comments always have a lot of knowledge, Thank you for participating in this discussion

 

[Selb]

So let’s say you use a topical AA like RU or CB rather than oral cpa or bica. Would that be just as effective from a hair growth perspective when used with exogenous estrogen?

Some people do a mono therapy of RU, akin to finasteride or dutasteride only but they maintain with only a small amount of regrowth. Over a few years they may gain some ground back but maybe the missing component in that case is estrogen for more rapid and substantial growth. dutasteride and finasteride aren’t enough because they don’t block test exposure to follicle ARs. what about the below regimen:

dutasteride orally
RU topically
Estrogen orally

You’re blocking test to dht conversion, free test and other androgens from hurting your follicles, and you’re inducing growth with exogenous estrogen.

 

[Selb]

If there are localized effects in the scalp for these other meds, then why wouldn't one achieve them using estrogel? I think virtually everyone should start off with estrogel on the scalp. That might be all that is needed, particularly if started young/soon enough. I continue to use dutasteride just in case. I think that different protocols are called for for three groups, cis-males, MtF's and MtF's not concerned about breast growth, and that they all require slightly different protocols.

Whenever I look into any of those designer finasteride-replacers that they tout on trressless, the thread is usually discontinued. None of them seem to work well and I don't think that they are worth the cost and effort to most people. They could also be serm-like and hurt results. Everyone always assumes that more is better. My general recommendation would be oral minoxidil up to ~20 mg, divided into two doses daily and 4 mg of estradiol without any AA. Later, an AA can be tried. While there are some possible speed benefits from AA's, they aren't worth the effort for most people, MtF or otherwise. People still don't get it. AA's were only needed when estradiol sources were either non-human or synthetic. Virtually no one who posts uses synthetic or CEE estrogen in an MtF context any longer except for me and I use Premarin. The founder used ethinyl estradiol which is very strong and cheap and worth looking into for people on limited budgets.

I honestly think that we in the baldness/HRT line of inquiry have a predilection for using more meds, not fewer because it seems to provide illusory options that make us feel more in control of our destiny and "just in case". Estradiol should be all that anyone needs theoretically and on here, anecdotally, very few on AA's have had success on them and many had so many sides that they couldn't even give them 90 days or so to try and you have to do that apparently with bica, which needs to build up in the system.

Using AA's without estrogen is not recommended long-term. Some prostate cancer patients did experience significant increases in apparent hair. I don't know whether it was cosmetically significant or not and that might depend on the patient. I doubt that it is cosmetically significant for anyone who has already suffered significant baldness just from AA's. Like finasteride, they seem able to stop baldness more so than grow hair. I hem and haw here because it depends on how things like growth, regrowth and improve is defined. But for anyone shooting for a pubertal/female hairline, I think that AA's in general are useless without estrogen because estrogen changes the skin and "heals" follicle damage somehow, facilitating regrowth. We have all seen topical minoxidil "growth" and that of reductase inhibitors and it is not often particularly impressive but they can really help slow/halt hair loss for males.

I think the problem is gyno like you said. Low dose estrogen might not be enough in its own. A lot of people have tried that with minimal results. Hell, they’ve tried it with dutasteride and minoxidil. For example, estrogel, how much of it would you apply to your scalp to achieve maximum hair growth with minimal breast development?

 

[NickGardner0651]

Janey, my question for you directly is I am looking to start a new regimen including what I am already taking 1mg finasteride and 5mg Oral Minoxidil. From your experience/knowledge base would you recommend adding oral spirolactone (50-100mg) daily ( I saw an incredible result with a male using 200mg a day with 0.5 dutasteride) or just adding estrogel topically all over my scalp every day, or both? I would like to keep my T levels in check and do not want to grow boobs.

 

[AndrewBarnes]

Lots of people seem to have had success on Cyproterone Acetate, for me it was like a sugar pill. I was taking 50mg monotherapy at one point in time and it felt like I was on nothing. Out of pure curiosity I should've gotten my T levels checked to see what was going on. I'll never understand why I seem to be so insensitive to treatment.

Cause you have no hair loss. Seek help.

 

[coco_304]

What is the difference between CPA and MPA...?
How they’re work..?

 

[franzliszt]

Drug reverses age-related cognitive decline within days

Just a few doses of an experimental drug can reverse age-related declines in memory and mental flexibility in mice, according to a new study by UC San Francisco scientists. The drug, called ISRIB, has already been shown in laboratory studies to restore memory function months after traumatic...

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2. Neuroscience

---

December 1, 2020

Drug reverses age-related cognitive decline within days​

by University of California, San Francisco



Credit: CC0 Public Domain
Just a few doses of an experimental drug can reverse age-related declines in memory and mental flexibility in mice, according to a new study by UC San Francisco scientists. The drug, called ISRIB, has already been shown in laboratory studies to restore memory function months after traumatic brain injury (TBI), reverse cognitive impairments in Down Syndrome , prevent noise-related hearing loss, fight certain types of prostate cancer , and even enhance cognition in healthy animals.


In the new study, published December 1, 2020 in the open-access journal eLife , researchers showed rapid restoration of youthful cognitive abilities in aged mice, accompanied by a rejuvenation of brain and immune cells that could help explain improvements in brain function.
"ISRIB's extremely rapid effects show for the first time that a significant component of age-related cognitive losses may be caused by a kind of reversible physiological "blockage" rather than more permanent degradation," said Susanna Rosi , Ph.D., Lewis and Ruth Cozen Chair II and professor in the departments of Neurological Surgery and of Physical Therapy and Rehabilitation Science.
"The data suggest that the aged brain has not permanently lost essential cognitive capacities, as was commonly assumed, but rather that these cognitive resources are still there but have been somehow blocked, trapped by a vicious cycle of cellular stress," added Peter Walter , Ph.D., a professor in the UCSF Department of Biochemistry and Biophysics and a Howard Hughes Medical Institute investigator. "Our work with ISRIB demonstrates a way to break that cycle and restore cognitive abilities that had become walled off over time."
Could Rebooting Cellular Protein Production Hold the Key to Aging and Other Diseases?
Walter has won numerous scientific awards, including the Breakthrough , Lasker and Shaw prizes, for his decades-long studies of cellular stress responses. ISRIB, discovered in 2013 in Walter's lab, works by rebooting cells' protein production machinery after it gets throttled by one of these stress responses—a cellular quality control mechanism called the integrated stress response (ISR; ISRIB stands for ISR InhiBitor).
The ISR normally detects problems with protein production in a cell—a potential sign of viral infection or cancer-promoting gene mutations—and responds by putting the brakes on cell's protein-synthesis machinery. This safety mechanism is critical for weeding out misbehaving cells, but if stuck in the on position in a tissue like the brain, it can lead to serious problems, as cells lose the ability to perform their normal activities, Walter and colleagues have found.



In particular, recent animal studies by Walter and Rosi, made possible by early philanthropic support from The Rogers Family Foundation, have implicated chronic ISR activation in the persistent cognitive and behavioral deficits seen in patients after TBI, by showing that, in mice, brief ISRIB treatment can reboot the ISR and restore normal brain function almost overnight.
The cognitive deficits in TBI patients are often likened to premature aging, which led Rosi and Walter to wonder if the ISR could also underlie purely age-related cognitive decline. Aging is well known to compromise cellular protein production across the body, as life's many insults pile up and stressors like chronic inflammation wear away at cells, potentially leading to widespread activation of the ISR.
"We've seen how ISRIB restores cognition in animals with traumatic brain injury, which in many ways is like a sped-up version of age-related cognitive decline," said Rosi, who is director of neurocognitive research in the UCSF Brain and Spinal Injury Center and a member of the UCSF Weill Institute for Neurosciences. "It may seem like a crazy idea, but asking whether the drug could reverse symptoms of aging itself was just a logical next step."
ISRIB Improves Cognition, Boosts Neuron and Immune Cell Function
In the new study, researchers led by Rosi lab postdoc Karen Krukowski , Ph.D., trained aged animals to escape from a watery maze by finding a hidden platform, a task that is typically hard for older animals to learn. But animals who received small daily doses of ISRIB during the three-day training process were able to accomplish the task as well as youthful mice, much better than animals of the same age who didn't receive the drug.
The researchers then tested how long this cognitive rejuvenation lasted and whether it could generalize to other cognitive skills. Several weeks after the initial ISRIB treatment, they trained the same mice to find their way out of a maze whose exit changed daily—a test of mental flexibility for aged mice who, like humans, tend to get increasingly stuck in their ways. The mice who had received brief ISRIB treatment three weeks before still performed at youthful levels, while untreated mice continued to struggle.
To understand how ISRIB might be improving brain function, the researchers studied the activity and anatomy of cells in the hippocampus, a brain region with a key role in learning and memory, just one day after giving animals a single dose of ISRIB. They found that common signatures of neuronal aging disappeared literally overnight: neurons' electrical activity became more sprightly and responsive to stimulation, and cells showed more robust connectivity with cells around them while also showing an ability to form stable connections with one another usually only seen in younger mice.
The researchers are continuing to study exactly how the ISR disrupts cognition in aging and other conditions and to understand how long ISRIB's cognitive benefits may last. Among other puzzles raised by the new findings is the discovery that ISRIB also alters the function of the immune system's T cells, which also are prone to age-related dysfunction. The findings suggest another path by which the drug could be improving cognition in aged animals, and could have implications for diseases from Alzheimer's to diabetes that have been linked to heightened inflammation caused by an aging immune system.
"This was very exciting to me because we know that aging has a profound and persistent effect on T cells and that these changes can affect brain function in the hippocampus," said Rosi. "At the moment, this is just an interesting observation, but it gives us a very exciting set of biological puzzles to solve.
ISRIB May Have Wide-Ranging Implications for Neurological Disease
It turns out that chronic ISR activation and resulting blockage of cellular protein production may play a role in a surprisingly wide array of neurological conditions. Below is a partial list of these conditions, based on a recent review by Walter and colleague Mauro Costa-Mattioli of Baylor College of Medicine, which could potentially be treated with an ISR-resetting agent like ISRIB:

• Frontotemporal Dementia
• Alzheimer's Disease
• Amyotrophic Lateral Sclerosis (ALS)
• Age-related Cognitive Decline
• Multiple Sclerosis
• Traumatic Brain Injury
• Parkinson's Disease
• Down Syndrome
• Vanishing White Matter Disorder
• Prion Disease

ISRIB has been licensed by Calico, a South San Francisco, Calif. company exploring the biology of aging, and the idea of targeting the ISR to treat disease has been picked up by other pharmaceutical companies, Walter says.
One might think that interfering with the ISR, a critical cellular safety mechanism, would be sure to have serious side effects, but so far in all their studies, the researchers have observed none. This is likely due to two factors, Walter says. First, it takes just a few doses of ISRIB to reset unhealthy, chronic ISR activation back to a healthier state, after which it can still respond normally to problems in individual cells. Second, ISRIB has virtually no effect when applied to cells actively employing the ISR in its most powerful form—against an aggressive viral infection, for example.
Naturally, both of these factors make the molecule much less likely to have negative side effects—and more attractive as a potential therapeutic. According to Walter: "It almost seems too good to be true, but with ISRIB we seem to have hit a sweet spot for manipulating the ISR with an ideal therapeutic window.

​

cool, we're one step closer to living forever

 

[coco_304]

I keep saying that I will write something more in depth so I will try to take a hack at that just to make sure that I have the finer details down but I have gone into the differences a bit. I was always puzzled why CPA is called an AA while MPA is called a progestin commonly when they are both anti-androgens and both progestins. One of the reasons that I became interested in this thread was my own bad experience with spironolactone and noticing on here how many people either couldn't tolerate AA's or who had sheds when using them, even when everything else has seemed to be going right for the person. Ethinyl Estradiol and Premarin continue to be two estrogens that used to be used by many or most MtF's as recently as ten years ago and they still might have some aspects that benefit cis-males more than MtF's perhaps because of the time aspect where cis-males and MtF's really, would use things in the short-run that are stronger but then maintain with pure estradiol. Obviously this whole field fascinates me because it is a bit puzzle like dealing with all of the variables and adjusting for gender preferences and hormonal tendencies. Goddess bless.

which is better for hair loss??
I know that cpa reduce testosterone and estrogen, what about mpa, is the same?
What is the difference in term of mechanism?

 

[franzliszt]

Yeah. I was thinking about it in a male context, finding a way to re-write just on the hair genes but apparently there are a lot. It would be just like them to find a cure right when we think that we are cracking the nut. You young folks (and I am not one of those people to talk about the olden days) have a bit of a different experience but I had this overall body feeling of being used up, even say 18 months ago and things like my overgrown neck muscles have given way and become flexible and I can turn my neck now without pain. My back is similar. Perhaps a lot of the trend towards using HRT by non-binary MtF's is for these other youth effects. I honestly enjoy walking now as the female gait is so pleasurable and I don't feel the need to rush around with my head down as I used to do. Now, I walk with my head upright and back arched because I can and because my self-esteem is so much higher.

Yeah, baldness shouldn't matter so much maybe but I am firmly committed to the idea that all of us have a duty to our fellow citiziens, at least when the plague is over, to look our best. It's great to feel like getting new clothes and wanting to leave the house and interact with others. Maybe sometime we can get a zoom session going and discuss some of the things in real-time among the regulars. I also hope to remember where people are from but it is hard sometimes without the visual.

I am laughing and thinking that maybe baldness should be treated differently. When boys reach the age of 13 or probably it would have to be 16 which is the age of consent here, they would be encouraged to do anything they want like Rumspringa among the Amish. That way they could have five, maybe ten years of living it up and "using their hair" to get partners. I felt as though I was so young and I wasn't done with my hair. I was barely past being a virgin so I deeply get that dysphoria over hair loss is life-threatening not just in terms of suicide but also in terms of incipient mental illness and extreme depression. It seems that most of the people on Tressless are young and many of them are deeply disturbed about it.

I guess theres nothing better in life than regaining youth, and for males estrogen definitely does that. My worry is that I've lost any chance of finding someone. Pre hairloss people would flirt with me, but the idea of a relationship didn't fuss me, I was happy alone. At 16/17 I started to want a relationship, right around the time the balding was getting noticable. 20 now and very occasionally I get some interest (during my once every 3 month good hair day), but for the most part I'm avoided like the plague. It's really the feeling of losing out on part of something we all need, and the fear of dying alone. "Tis better to have loved and lost, then never to have loved at all"

 

[AndrewBarnes]

I guess theres nothing better in life than regaining youth, and for males estrogen definitely does that. My worry is that I've lost any chance of finding someone. Pre hairloss people would flirt with me, but the idea of a relationship didn't fuss me, I was happy alone. At 16/17 I started to want a relationship, right around the time the balding was getting noticable. 20 now and very occasionally I get some interest (during my once every 3 month good hair day), but for the most part I'm avoided like the plague. It's really the feeling of losing out on part of something we all need, and the fear of dying alone. "Tis better to have loved and lost, then never to have loved at all"

You can't find someone at all due to hairloss? I'm sure you can find a girl that's 5/10 to date but you probably don't want to settle that low. It's just unfortunate the degree hair contributes to our looks and how much looks effect the way people treat us.

 

[NickGardner0651]

If there are localized effects in the scalp for these other meds, then why wouldn't one achieve them using estrogel? I think virtually everyone should start off with estrogel on the scalp. That might be all that is needed, particularly if started young/soon enough. I continue to use dutasteride just in case. I think that different protocols are called for for three groups, cis-males, MtF's and MtF's not concerned about breast growth, and that they all require slightly different protocols.

Whenever I look into any of those designer finasteride-replacers that they tout on trressless, the thread is usually discontinued. None of them seem to work well and I don't think that they are worth the cost and effort to most people. They could also be serm-like and hurt results. Everyone always assumes that more is better. My general recommendation would be oral minoxidil up to ~20 mg, divided into two doses daily and 4 mg of estradiol without any AA. Later, an AA can be tried. While there are some possible speed benefits from AA's, they aren't worth the effort for most people, MtF or otherwise. People still don't get it. AA's were only needed when estradiol sources were either non-human or synthetic. Virtually no one who posts uses synthetic or CEE estrogen in an MtF context any longer except for me and I use Premarin. The founder used ethinyl estradiol which is very strong and cheap and worth looking into for people on limited budgets.

I honestly think that we in the baldness/HRT line of inquiry have a predilection for using more meds, not fewer because it seems to provide illusory options that make us feel more in control of our destiny and "just in case". Estradiol should be all that anyone needs theoretically and on here, anecdotally, very few on AA's have had success on them and many had so many sides that they couldn't even give them 90 days or so to try and you have to do that apparently with bica, which needs to build up in the system.

Using AA's without estrogen is not recommended long-term. Some prostate cancer patients did experience significant increases in apparent hair. I don't know whether it was cosmetically significant or not and that might depend on the patient. I doubt that it is cosmetically significant for anyone who has already suffered significant baldness just from AA's. Like finasteride, they seem able to stop baldness more so than grow hair. I hem and haw here because it depends on how things like growth, regrowth and improve is defined. But for anyone shooting for a pubertal/female hairline, I think that AA's in general are useless without estrogen because estrogen changes the skin and "heals" follicle damage somehow, facilitating regrowth. We have all seen topical minoxidil "growth" and that of reductase inhibitors and it is not often particularly impressive but they can really help slow/halt hair loss for males.

Janey, can you reply to my most recent post? I am starting a new regimen soon and would like your input

 

[NickGardner0651]

Sure but you have to understand that a lot of the things that people are interested in are things that other folks on here exceed my knowledge in like prostaglandins, which I have trouble saying and pronouncing.

Unless you have a speed concern, I wouldn't advise an AA. It helps or really is necessary to know things about your age, state of hair loss, your realistic goals, etc. Even though I know most of the people who hang on this site, I am often answering scores of questions on the Reddit sites so I can't always remember who's MtF or exact protocols.

I have used dutasteride and finasteride together for several years and I recently stopped the finasteride because it appeared superflous. I would advise against using both and just use dutasteride because if you use too manythings, you can't tell what's doing what. Depending upon your urgency, I would do oral minoxidil twice a day at 5 mg. Depending upon your hairline and state of diffuse loss, I would add estrogel twice daily either on balding areas and the temples or use it like a hair tonic into all hair that is thinning even if you still have good coverage. Some people have fringe areas that are perfect so they don't need estrogel in those areas. Some or most of the estradiol will go systemic so I would go slow and if you see any breast growth at all, then desist from the estrogel and all of us can regroup. Of course, we aren't doctors, just people who are throwing things out that might work.

I don't know if you mean maintain your T levels when you say keep them in check. My T levels stayed high and I feminized from the neck down at low levels but I only saw vague hair improvement until recently when I raised my E2 levels into the stratosphere. I wasn't using oral minoxidil though and for you, I would put the focus on testing the oral minoxidil by not adding too many meds and using the estrogel sparingly. You probably do need some in your serum blood even if hopefully most of it stays localized. People apparently have different amounts of estrogen in their scalps and that could make a difference so a lot of this is an art as much as a science and bio-feedback is important. I will be around if you have follow-ups.

 

[NickGardner0651]

Have you had personal success using estrogel (topical) for regrowth? Also, I think I am going to try the Spironalactone at a small dose first see how my body reacts and go from there. When I say keep my T levels in check I mean being able to still lift weights at the gym and build muscle as a cis male. Is there a specific brand of estrogel topical that I should be purchasing or is it strictly prescribed by a doctor only?

My new regimen will be
1mg Finasteride daily
10mg Oral Minoxidil (5mg morning, 5mg night)
(50-100mg to start) spironolactone split between morning and night
Estrogel applied once daily on thinning areas.

 

[AndrewBarnes]

Have you had personal success using estrogel (topical) for regrowth? Also, I think I am going to try the Spironalactone at a small dose first see how my body reacts and go from there. When I say keep my T levels in check I mean being able to still lift weights at the gym and build muscle as a cis male. Is there a specific brand of estrogel topical that I should be purchasing or is it strictly prescribed by a doctor only?

My new regimen will be
1mg Finasteride daily
10mg Oral Minoxidil (5mg morning, 5mg night)
(50-100mg to start) spironolactone split between morning and night
Estrogel applied once daily on thinning areas.

Using the spironolactone will help with the water retention from Oral Min. New regimen looks great for regrowth. Good luck

 

[franzliszt]

Medroxyprogesterone acetate aka Provera, aka Depo-provera aka MPA​

The wikipedia actually does a pretty good overview of medroxyprogesterone acetate as it functions in transgender females. Much of the entry is about its use as birth control and also its use in cases of hypersexuality. It has been used to treat sexual offenders and to lessen urges disfavored by society. CPA is also used for this form of what is know as chemical castration. Strangely enough, no estrogen appears to have been used in these treatments although estrogen is known to have similar effects on libido. There is very little about using for hair growth so I will have to keep looking into that.

I have been using 10 mg which based upon the extrapolation probably lowers circulating testosterone by about ten percent on its own. It's unknown what combinations with estrogen are used but the two together can easily reduce T levels to that of a castrate.

Medroxyprogesterone acetate - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

I can't seem to find any serious side effects, such as brain tumors and liver toxicity for cypro, cardiovascular disease+hepatoxicity for bica etc. It's said to have been well tolerated in studies of 5000mg a day (alhough I can't find the study Wiki mentions). As I think you've said before, it doesn't increase testosterone levels such as bica, as a result Less testosterone can be converted to DHT (I think the problem i ahd with Bica).

You can't find someone at all due to hairloss? I'm sure you can find a girl that's 5/10 to date but you probably don't want to settle that low. It's just unfortunate the degree hair contributes to our looks and how much looks effect the way people treat us.

I got kind of a weird face, attractive with a good haircut but hideous without hair framing it properly. It really does effect the way people interact with you. Being unattractive, people assume that your looks accurately reflect your personality.

 

[NickGardner0651]

Thanks Janey. Also, another question I have is would I get better regrowth dropping the spironolactone and just adding a small does of cpa 12.5mg daily? I’ve seen some good results in others and I think that the missing ingredient in a regrowth regiment for cis males is in fact estrogen. How much without having too feminizing side effects is the tricky part. What are the pros and cons between a low dose cpa and low dose estradiol?

 

[coco_304]

What about @bridgeburn..??
Where is him