Exploring The Hormonal Route. Hair=life.

[Jacob Williams]

Why are you using two AA's and that seems like a lot of bicalutamide and a lot of CPA. I would have expected it to halt your hair loss but not reverse it perhaps so that is puzzling but virtually no one uses two AA's and not so much. In my experience, spironolactone causes way more tiredness and weakness than using just estrogen so that the only HRT med that I am depending on now. Estrogen is a natural substance almost identical to testosterone in structure while these AA's are non-natural and can be jarring to the system and cause sheds when adding them and lowering them. So that's why I am doing this without an AA and so far, really good. Today might be the first day that I can't see thinning in the crown in over thirty-six years.

Are you remaining strength on that much of those AA's? Because I was on only 200mg, sort of a standard dose of spironolactone and I was weak as a kitten until I went off it.

Yeah I’ve not only retained strength but I’ve actually put on about 20 pounds of muscle while on AA’s. I’ve seen a significant amount of strength gain and there’s really no outward signs of my drug use besides the gyno, some reduction in body hair, and a slight sexual dysfunction. The anti androgens have not reduced my strength at all which I’d expect from Bicalutamide since it actually increases T and does not block it anabolically, but at one point in time I was on 50mg of CPA and I felt like I was taking nothing. Makes no sense. I’m taking CPA with Bicalutamide to counteract the rise in T. My dose of CPA is high because I seem to be quite insensitive to it.

 

[franzliszt]

Yeah I’ve not only retained strength but I’ve actually put on about 20 pounds of muscle while on AA’s. I’ve seen a significant amount of strength gain and there’s really no outward signs of my drug use besides the gyno, some reduction in body hair, and a slight sexual dysfunction. The anti androgens have not reduced my strength at all which I’d expect from Bicalutamide since it actually increases T and does not block it anabolically, but at one point in time I was on 50mg of CPA and I felt like I was taking nothing. Makes no sense. I’m taking CPA with Bicalutamide to counteract the rise in T. My dose of CPA is high because I seem to be quite insensitive to it.

Have you had a blood test for T and DHT?

 

[Jacob Williams]

Hi. Did you get blood tests? I’m in the same situation, 50mg CPA and 4mg Estrogel plus 100mcg patch. Unfortunately my free testosterone is 9.7pg/ml(normal range 9-28), total T is 300ng/dL. Hair is still falling out. It could be a tumor in the testicles or adrenals.You should check it. Also check your insulin.

Man that’s crazy. I have not been getting blood tests just because it’s so expensive and inconvenient and I’m not even sure what I should be testing for. Clearly something funky is going on. I understand how a tumor could cause hair loss, but what do insulin levels have to do with it?

 

[Jacob Williams]

Have you had a blood test for T and DHT?

I have not but I guess I probably should. I’ve avoided it to this point because I didn’t think it would tell me any actionable information. I know Bicalutamide raised my T levels because of the side effects I got. I know CPA has reduced my T levels to some degree because I’ve seen a cessation of those side effects when I combined the 2. A DHT test might be interesting, I’ve been on dutasteride for 2+ years but I’ve never been able to tell that it’s actually doing anything. The only drug that I can actually notice a difference shed wise when I come on or off is minoxidil and Bicalutamide. The one thing that I have not tried is a true reduction of serum T. CPA is the only attempt I’ve made at decreasing my T as opposed to just blocking it and it was pretty clearly ineffective. Could be that I’m just resistant to 5a-reductase inhibitors. I think Bicalutamide slows down my hairloss, just not nearly enough. At my dose it should be able to handle my T levels, but DHT has a significantly greater binding affinity than Bicalutamide so even if Bicalutamide exists well in excess of DHT it could still be doing damage if dutasteride isn’t doing what it’s supposed to.

 

[franzliszt]

I have not but I guess I probably should. I’ve avoided it to this point because I didn’t think it would tell me any actionable information. I know Bicalutamide raised my T levels because of the side effects I got. I know CPA has reduced my T levels to some degree because I’ve seen a cessation of those side effects when I combined the 2. A DHT test might be interesting, I’ve been on dutasteride for 2+ years but I’ve never been able to tell that it’s actually doing anything. The only drug that I can actually notice a difference shed wise when I come on or off is minoxidil and Bicalutamide. The one thing that I have not tried is a true reduction of serum T. CPA is the only attempt I’ve made at decreasing my T as opposed to just blocking it and it was pretty clearly ineffective. Could be that I’m just resistant to 5a-reductase inhibitors. I think Bicalutamide slows down my hairloss, just not nearly enough. At my dose it should be able to handle my T levels, but DHT has a significantly greater binding affinity than Bicalutamide so even if Bicalutamide exists well in excess of DHT it could still be doing damage if dutasteride isn’t doing what it’s supposed to.

I think a T and DHT test would be useful. If they aren't suppressed, then a LHRH agonist might be an option.

 

[Jacob Williams]

I think a T and DHT test would be useful. If they aren't suppressed, then a LHRH agonist might be an option.

The problem is I only know of one affordable source for LHRH/GnRH agonists, and with how often these type of pharmacies pop up, disappear, and run out of stock, I’m confident I’d lose my access to supply at some point, and the second I’m off irreversible damage is occurring to my hair. A couple benefits of estrogen as far as I’m aware is that it’s available and affordable from multiple sources and it gives you more wiggle room since it can actually revive miniaturized hair follicles so it’s not the end of the world if I end up without access to drugs for a short period of time.

 

[franzliszt]

The problem is I only know of one affordable source for LHRH/GnRH agonists, and with how often these type of pharmacies pop up, disappear, and run out of stock, I’m confident I’d lose my access to supply at some point, and the second I’m off irreversible damage is occurring to my hair. A couple benefits of estrogen as far as I’m aware is that it’s available and affordable from multiple sources and it gives you more wiggle room since it can actually revive miniaturized hair follicles so it’s not the end of the world if I end up without access to drugs for a short period of time.

Zoladex 3.6mg Depot (Goserelin Acetate) - 3.6mg (1 Syringe) - United Pharmacies (UK)

Zoladex 3.6mg Depot (Goserelin Acetate) is an antitumor hormone drug that is used in such cases as hormone-dependent prostate cancer, hormone-dependent breast cancer in women during the reproductive period or in perimenopause, endometriosis, uterine fibroids (in combination with surgical...

www.unitedpharmacies-uk.md

This is where I get mine from, £60 a month isn't cheap, but if you have a job it's not so bad. I'm on the 10.8 version, which works out to be more, but it's more convenient to do it every 3 months instead of every month. it's only been 6 days since starting, so not much to report yet

 

[JaneyElizabeth]

Yeah I’ve not only retained strength but I’ve actually put on about 20 pounds of muscle while on AA’s. I’ve seen a significant amount of strength gain and there’s really no outward signs of my drug use besides the gyno, some reduction in body hair, and a slight sexual dysfunction. The anti androgens have not reduced my strength at all which I’d expect from Bicalutamide since it actually increases T and does not block it anabolically, but at one point in time I was on 50mg of CPA and I felt like I was taking nothing. Makes no sense. I’m taking CPA with Bicalutamide to counteract the rise in T. My dose of CPA is high because I seem to be quite insensitive to it.

Interesting. Maybe only spironolactone has these fatigue sides but it definitely did for me. I won't touch cyproterone so that leaves me with bica or upping my medroxy if needed but I don't believe I need an AA.

 

[Jacob Williams]

Interesting. Maybe only spironolactone has these fatigue sides but it definitely did for me. I won't touch cyproterone so that leaves me with bica or upping my medroxy if needed but I don't believe I need an AA.

The thing is I was on Spironolactone 200mg a while ago and some of my side effects were actually more severe than with CPA or Bica even though it’s a weaker drug. I don’t think I was consistently working out when I was on spironolactone so strength is harder to judge but my sexual side effects were worse and I needed to pee so much.

 

[Jacob Williams]

Zoladex 3.6mg Depot (Goserelin Acetate) - 3.6mg (1 Syringe) - United Pharmacies (UK)

Zoladex 3.6mg Depot (Goserelin Acetate) is an antitumor hormone drug that is used in such cases as hormone-dependent prostate cancer, hormone-dependent breast cancer in women during the reproductive period or in perimenopause, endometriosis, uterine fibroids (in combination with surgical...

www.unitedpharmacies-uk.md

This is where I get mine from, £60 a month isn't cheap, but if you have a job it's not so bad. I'm on the 10.8 version, which works out to be more, but it's more convenient to do it every 3 months instead of every month. it's only been 6 days since starting, so not much to report yet

Yeah that’s not bad compared to what I’m paying right now. I know you can get Buserelin from OTC for around $40 a month. Everything I’m taking right now costs around $140 monthly. If I were to drop bica and CPA for one of these it would actually be cheaper. My current plan is to stay on Bicalutamide and just add estrogen though since I know that Bicalutamide is doing something and I don’t want to change too much at once. How dangerous and sustainable would it be to try androgen deprivation without estrogen?

 

[franzliszt]

Yeah that’s not bad compared to what I’m paying right now. I know you can get Buserelin from OTC for around $40 a month. Everything I’m taking right now costs around $140 monthly. If I were to drop bica and CPA for one of these it would actually be cheaper. My current plan is to stay on Bicalutamide and just add estrogen though since I know that Bicalutamide is doing something and I don’t want to change too much at once. How dangerous and sustainable would it be to try androgen deprivation without estrogen

Personally I haven't been in a state of hormone deprivation, aside from when my e2 gets low, when I feel weak and depressed. I imagine total deprivation would be worse. You could always try it, and add e2 if you end up feeling terrible

 

[JaneyElizabeth]

Yeah that’s not bad compared to what I’m paying right now. I know you can get Buserelin from OTC for around $40 a month. Everything I’m taking right now costs around $140 monthly. If I were to drop bica and CPA for one of these it would actually be cheaper. My current plan is to stay on Bicalutamide and just add estrogen though since I know that Bicalutamide is doing something and I don’t want to change too much at once. How dangerous and sustainable would it be to try androgen deprivation without estrogen?

Hair-wise? Not good. I don't think you can can grow cosmetically significant hair without estrogen. Otherwise, it is always, eh. It's the thickening that goes unnoticed.

 

[JaneyElizabeth]

Hair Progress Pics. I don't like how it is too blown up but these actually look better in real life. I am for a male I would say, very close to having a full male-ish head of hair. Now how like that stage lasts I do not know but generally on transition timelines there is an appearance of softening and thickening and as it reaches a length where it can frame my face, I will maybe have to make a decision but right now, Janey still wows with the wig. I tried to take some pics from on top and none of them came out but it is almost entirely filled in in the crown for the first time in 36 years. There is an imperceptible here, sort of blondish undercoat that I can see coming in that gives me confidence that this is going to happen for me just as I hoped/planned for over six years. But it still is almost identically in the middle between balding and regrowth in terms of direction. The hairline keeps sort of rolling forward together band like so the whole process is so subtle and it is easy to miss.

Hair progress pictures.

 

[pegasus2]

It has been reported that genes only contribute to 13.7% of the explained variance in Androgenetic Alopecia [8]. Thus, in this study, family history, the concentration of vanadium in blood, the AA genotype of rs1160312 and the regular consumption of soy bean drinks (3 days per week) were examined in a logistic regression analysis. The results showed that these factors contributed to 59% of the explained variance of Androgenetic Alopecia."

There's a lot of broscience in these posts, which is fine, and much of it is good information, but this is just way off base. That study is referring to a single gene, and Androgenetic Alopecia is polygenic. It's actually closer to 80% genetic.

The total proportion of variance in male pattern baldness that can be attributed to genetic factors has been estimated in twin studies to be approximately 80% for both early- and late-onset hair loss

Genetic prediction of male pattern baldness - PMC

Male pattern baldness can have substantial psychosocial effects, and it has been phenotypically linked to adverse health outcomes such as prostate cancer and cardiovascular disease. We explored the genetic architecture of the trait using data from ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

 

[JaneyElizabeth]

There's a lot of broscience in these posts, which is fine, and much of it is good information, but this is just way off base. That study is referring to a single gene, and Androgenetic Alopecia is polygenic. It's actually closer to 80% genetic.

Genetic prediction of male pattern baldness - PMC

Male pattern baldness can have substantial psychosocial effects, and it has been phenotypically linked to adverse health outcomes such as prostate cancer and cardiovascular disease. We explored the genetic architecture of the trait using data from ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

It's just that baldness is highly sexually dimorphic among whites which is tied to genetics.

 

[pegasus2]

It's just that baldness is highly sexually dimorphic among whites which is tied to genetics.

It's tied to genes that upregulate AR expression, and downregulate Wnts. Environmental factors are quite small, and mostly limited to early onset of hair loss and increased severity. Women have hair loss too, it's just not as severe because they have less DHT and more estrogen.

GWAS for male-pattern baldness identifies 71 susceptibility loci explaining 38% of the risk - Nature Communications

Male pattern baldness (MBP) is a complex trait that has genetic associations. Here, Pirastu and colleagues perform a genome-wide association study to show 71 susceptibility loci associated with MBP — 30 of which are novel — and that these loci can explain 38% of heritability.

www.nature.com

 

[JaneyElizabeth]

It's tied to genes that upregulate AR expression, and downregulate Wnts. Environmental factors are quite small, and mostly limited to early onset of hair loss and increased severity. Women have hair loss too, it's just not as severe because they have less DHT and more estrogen.

GWAS for male-pattern baldness identifies 71 susceptibility loci explaining 38% of the risk - Nature Communications

Male pattern baldness (MBP) is a complex trait that has genetic associations. Here, Pirastu and colleagues perform a genome-wide association study to show 71 susceptibility loci associated with MBP — 30 of which are novel — and that these loci can explain 38% of heritability.

www.nature.com

Yes but beyond that, when we talk about goddess-like tresses or I guess that's a loaded term but beautiful long flowing and growing hair like a goddess is something beyond all white males except for Brad Pitt, maybe Jeff Bridges a couple of times. The things are connected, the quality and count and anagen aspects. That's why its beyond some without enough estrogen. Now where Brad Pitt hair comes from originally, I don't know what allowed him to maintain hair like that.

 

[pegasus2]

Yes but beyond that, when we talk about goddess-like tresses or I guess that's a loaded term but beautiful long flowing and growing hair like a goddess is something beyond all white males except for Brad Pitt, maybe Jeff Bridges a couple of times. The things are connected, the quality and count and anagen aspects. That's why its beyond some without enough estrogen. Now where Brad Pitt hair comes from originally, I don't know what allowed him to maintain hair like that.

I had super thick hair throughout most of my 20s. Asian men have thick hair all their lives due to a mutation in the EDAR gene. It's not that men are supposed to go bald and women aren't, and it's not about your diet or whether or not you smoke. There are men who have thicker hair than women because they have good hair genes. If your genes are good enough then it doesn't matter what sex you are because it doesn't take much DHT to cause hair loss if your AR is highly sensitive.

 

[JaneyElizabeth]

Of course, these are all generalizations. Siberians, male and female tend to have perfect oval band locks. But for whites:

Perfect hair for a male and then perfect hair for "his" female self, and somehow, the female hair is still slightly nicer/better/prettier. But the answer is not in thickness; there the male might have the better, there is simply an overall balance to the female hair that perfects it. Interesting to see facial issues with great hair so we all have our battles to be trite.

https://www.reddit.com/r/transtimelines/comments/jh7za7

 

[pegasus2]

Obviously someone with the same genes is going to have better hair with lower androgen levels and higher estrogen levels.