Exploring The Hormonal Route. Hair=life.
- Thread starter bridgeburn
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I have heard of a couple of guys using topical liposomal bi-estro without sides like gyno and low libido. The nearest thing to a cure is liposomal Duta so it would make sense that estrogen that stayed in the scalp would cause fewer side effects. I would like to give it a go but as I get gyno & brain fog from low dose finasteride it's probably to higher a risk.
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I’ve heard duta doesn’t have to be liposomal for it work well topically. It’s just that you have to be careful not to use it too frequently or it’ll build up.
I’ve seen good results from bi-estro too. I think estrogen is underutilized in a lot of regimens. What it does is two fold in conjunction with other treatments: 1) It’s a growth agonist, especially when you also microneedle, 2) it downregulates ARs, increasing the effectiveness of AR blockers like Keto cream and RU so you don’t have to gradually increase dosage.
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Gyno isn't an issue for me since I'm transitioning, but I'm of the opinion that breast reduction is a hell of a lot cheaper than a hair transplant. I guess there will be some scarring, but the same goes for a transplant.
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Actually it's a lot more expensive than I thought, although it depends where you live. I guess they're about the same cost, but I'd still prefer the hormonal route for results .
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In my country gyno surgery is about 1400$ without the mandatory blood tests and consultation
Edit: my currency is sh*t now so i guess it's about 2000$
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Oh that's not bad at all. I looked up some average prices and was finding $7000 USD+
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Some beast reduction looks passable, others you can tell something is off. Considering breast growth on hrt for most cases is secondary to cis females, the results could be better.
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yeah it's good if you don't live and work here
I'm going to experiment with an RU + bi-estro combo.
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Yeah I was also thinking of cycling it 2 weeks on with keto cream followed by 2 weeks with just keto just to see if I can avoid the gyno.
I dont know if this is the right place to ask, but if someone already has a hyperandrogenism from finasteride (like not responding well and already developed slight gyno). Would taking something like topical biestro (estrodiol and estriol) still not yield any result?
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Noah, If you dont mind me asking, what was your regimen? How long were you on it and what was your baseline in terms of hair loss?
At this point, I need regrowth more than anything. I am planning to give this a shot since there was someone here who was able to get regrowth almost everywhere (including thinning sides) with biestro, keto cream, microneedling, oils and strict diet.
According to wikipedia, topical estradiol has a half life of 36.5 hours, albeit in a gel form. There isn't a topical one listed for estriol, but it says the oral and IV versions are about half that of estradiol. So I was thinking I may apply that EOD? As far as RU goes, I'll probably be doing about 25mg (0.5mL) 2x a day since the half life is so short, and I only have issues on my hairline so I don't need much. On bi-estro days I could do RU only once maybe. I'm not exactly sure how I want to structure it. I don't know how those substances would be best sequenced, one could impede the other's absorption? RU has a molecular weight of 369.34, and both estradiol and estriol are in the upper 200's.
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The only problem I see is the estradiol having a light Dalton weight as although it absorbs very well it won't hang around where we really need it( in the scalp) that's why it's preferable in liposomal form. I have noticed that the AllVia bi-estro is liposomal so you may get away with using less often. The half life may well apply to the whole body effect.
I also found RU went systemic rather quickly too. I didn't really have an issue with application of RU as it dried quickly and wasn't visible after 5 mins. So you could stack if time is an issue.
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That's so cool - I've never seen anyone make this connection. I have a cowlick on my hairline that's always been a thorn in my side. Let us know if microneedling changes yours!
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Janey, how would the estrogel compare to oral estradiol in terms of concentration? If I am starting with 1mg Estradiol would application of the gel bring me closer to 2mg due to systemic absorption?
Thanks lol. The name just popped into my head for some reason. There's definitely a lot of people on these forums that are way smarter than I am, you are for sure, especially with hormonal expertise.
Half lives, in a practical sense, refer to how long the drug is in the system. For example, oral minoxidil has a half life of approximately 4 hours. This means that if you took, say, 10mg at 8AM, approximately half of that (5mg) would be in your system at 12PM. Then 2.5mg still at 4PM. I've read that usually 5-7 half lives is the point where it clears. So 4 hours X 5 half lives = about 20 hours in your system. So if you are taking a drug with a substantially longer half life, like dutasteride, which has a phenomenal half life of 4-5 weeks, you really don't need to take it very frequently - caveat - it should be noted that the drug first needs to reach a steady-state before it lasts that long in the system. This is why many will start a "loading phase" of duta of around 2.5mg daily for a week or two, then take it only a couple times a week. But, theoretically, once you are loaded into that steady state, you could take it once every week or longer and maintain the same serum concentration. A while back I read somewhere in the forums about dutasteride being used topically say once a week or once a month and there was some study showing it being nearly as effective as if applied more frequently. Also, most compounds will have a substantially longer half when applied topically. For example, topical minoxidil has a half life of 22 hours, hence why good results can be realized by using it once daily. It still will likely be more effective twice daily though, as the concentration will be doubled (5% twice a day is the same amount as 10% once a day) and the drug will remain more steady in the system the more frequently it is applied. All this being said, just because a drug is no longer in the bloodstream, that doesn't mean that the effects of it do not last longer (finasteride being a prime example with a half life of only 5-6 hours, but once it reaches a steady state, it takes a few weeks for DHT to return to normal).
Molecular weight helps us to understand how well the given substance absorbs. Generally, the smaller it is the more systemic it will go. Minoxidil is around 200g/mol, possessing one of the lowest molecular weights of all of the hair loss topicals, thus it absorbs well into the scalp compared to something like dutasteride which has a molecular weight of over 500g/mol. So although duta has a long half life, the molecular weight is going to make it less potent (but also less systemic which is advantageous for those seeking to avoid that).
As Murkey pointed out, finding the right balance is complex.
Dermarolling/needling etc is also going to affect the penetration and how systemic these things go. There's different philosophies on this too, the method of needling, as well as the frequency/intensity. Most do a weekly wound, but then there's people like Somebody Alex who got amazing results from just a very light daily roll without any bleeding at all. So customizing/optimizing these methods will depend on what substances you're using.
It's impossible to find a perfect formula, but my philosophy is to try to find at least some pieces in the equation that fit most closely to one's specific goals and their unique individual characteristics. A lot of it is simply going to be experimentation, trial and error, and theorizing. There is no way around it when the only thing that matters is the outcomes. There is so much statistical data out there - which is important, and it's interesting to delve into the complexities of such - but at the end of the day it can be overwhelming, distracting, and even downright depressing to not have a simple cure in the palm of our hands like we do for a number of deadly diseases. We simply have to give some things our best guess and just test it out. Anyways, I'm rambling now so I digress.
Good info, thanks!
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One of the strange benefits of all of the purported sides of reductase inhibitors is that guys have studied them to death in terms of dosage and half-life so as to be able to take the least amount needed to be effective. Some of that knowledge carries over to the other meds like RU and the flutamide-based med from the C.R. It would be interesting to know the absorption of Estrogel, all three Life Flo products, and also Premarin cream. Would these stats be in the package inserts and would they be relevant? Then we have genital skin which a recent study shows to be five times more efficient in terms of systemic estradiol levels.