Has Anyone Questioned Androgenetic Factors

[bobmer]

Oh, I suppose if your current regimen isn't quite holding its own (you're still slowly losing hair), if you add the additional factor of a diet specifically designed to modify androgenic factors (like what that DamnItLetMeIn guy has been obsessing about in that other thread! ), then that _may_ cause it to teeter-totter over into a somewhat more positive result. But I certainly wouldn't expect anything dramatic just from that one additional factor.

Maybe. We each have our own decisions and opinions. I would refrain from making comments on what other guys are pushing unless I have something I can use to help prove their claims.

There is one finding, not robust, not controlled and not credible. Surgical hair transplant wherein the scalp from the back is transfered to the top.
How is it that supposed androgen independent follicles from this area will cease after several years - the reason why dermatologists prescribe pros and minoxidil after the transplant.?

 

[abcdefg]

bryan finasteride wasnt an accidental discovery for hairloss? I thought finasteride was originally for bph then it was accidentally found that it grows some hair then they turned it into propecia?

 

[bobmer]

Minoxidil is for high blood pressure and 'accidentally' discovered that it grew hair on a woman. That accidental discovery was so well publisized world wide, it puts question mark on whether it was truly an accident. minoxidil is a blood vessel dilator or is suppose to prevent constriction. Stress hormones are known to constrict blood vessels and androgens puts blood vessels in contrict mode. But the maker says they 'don't know' why it causes hair to grow. Further studies have not found out why it grows hair. That's the story if i'm not mistaken. It seems to me it was meant to throw off those who would want to try other dilators.

 

[Bryan]

There is one finding, not robust, not controlled and not credible. Surgical hair transplant wherein the scalp from the back is transfered to the top.
How is it that supposed androgen independent follicles from this area will cease after several years -

Who sez they "cease" after several years?

...the reason why dermatologists prescribe pros and minoxidil after the transplant.?

Uhh...I think they prescribe finasteride and minoxidil mainly to preserve as much of the remaining hair (the androgen-sensitive hair) as possible. There's only a limited supply of androgen independent follicles available, and if you run out, you're out of luck.

Bryan

 

[Bryan]

bryan finasteride wasnt an accidental discovery for hairloss? I thought finasteride was originally for bph then it was accidentally found that it grows some hair then they turned it into propecia?

Nope. Everybody always assumes what you just suggested, but for no good reason whatsoever.

Merck designed finasteride for the specific purpose of possibly treating a range of androgen-related disorders, including BPH, male pattern baldness, acne, hirsutism, etc.

Bryan

 

[Bryan]

Minoxidil is for high blood pressure and 'accidentally' discovered that it grew hair on a woman. That accidental discovery was so well publisized world wide, it puts question mark on whether it was truly an accident.

You've lost me. Why does that put a "question mark" on whether it was truly an accident??

minoxidil is a blood vessel dilator or is suppose to prevent constriction. Stress hormones are known to constrict blood vessels and androgens puts blood vessels in contrict mode. But the maker says they 'don't know' why it causes hair to grow. Further studies have not found out why it grows hair. That's the story if i'm not mistaken. It seems to me it was meant to throw off those who would want to try other dilators.

It's been pointed out for YEARS on hairloss sites that other blood vessel dilators don't grow hair like minoxidil does. ONLY minoxidil and others in the same chemical family (diazoxide is another example) do that. Therefore, dilating blood vessels per se has nothing to do with stimulating hair growth.

Bryan

 

[bobmer]

You've lost me. Why does that put a "question mark" on whether it was truly an accident??

It's been pointed out for YEARS on hairloss sites that other blood vessel dilators don't grow hair like minoxidil does. ONLY minoxidil and others in the same chemical family (diazoxide is another example) do that. Therefore, dilating blood vessels per se has nothing to do with stimulating hair growth.

Ignore what I said :lol: It only means I don't trust data the comes out of pharmceuticals or research funded by them :lol:

But what's the real score? Upjohn claims 40% 'positive' results. I read some statements from dermathologists claiming less than 5%?

 

[Pondle]

There must be an evolutionary explanation for male pattern baldness.

I think the argument outlined in "Beards, Balding, and Sweat Secretion" makes as much sense as any other theory I've read about: balding evolved in certain primates to provide extra cooling for the brain.

Bryan

But if this is the case, why doesn't it present equally in men and women? Surely we should see less male pattern baldness in colder regions?

 

[Armando Jose]

Bobmer wrote:
Environment in research means: food, physical, social, work, clothes, air, water, including your chair You ought to know that by now!!


My question:
In common baldness,
hair style, hair lenght, hair cuts are included in environment or not??

Armando

 

[bobmer]

My question:
In common baldness,
hair style, hair lenght, hair cuts are included in environment or not??

hmm... hair style can 'social' (how you think people perceive you); hair length and cut would be physical.

Here is one difference between men and women - they brush their hair 30 times to 50 times more than men. Because it's long, it has a masssaging effect on the scalp.

I don't want to put too much attention on this but one thing I know is that the 'horseshoe' (back and sides of the head) have been massaged for eons or at least since the day you were born (by a pillow)

Again let me repeat that massaging will NOT prevent hairloss although it might in very few people. male pattern baldness is believed by some to be causeed by many factors. Address one factor that's one down but you have 5 more to go.

 

[Bryan]

But what's the real score? Upjohn claims 40% 'positive' results. I read some statements from dermathologists claiming less than 5%?

I don't mean to sound glib or cliché, but I really do think a HUGE factor is the exact way you define "positive results". The poster on hairsite calling himself "Common Sense" (he claims to be a doctor) once said that he had never seen minoxidil grow hair on a person that was obvious and visible from across the room. Well, heavens, that seems like a rather tough standard to meet, although some people do get that kind of growth.

Dr. Proctor, on the other hand, defines a "response" to medication as being an improvement that you can detect in before-and-after photos, which obviously is a little easier to meet than being visible "across the room".

Yet another way to define a successful "response" would be a statistically significant increase in haircounts, whether it's visible or not in photographs (or from across the room). That's clearly the most lenient standard to meet.

So the bottom-line is that the phrase "positive results" has to be very carefully and specifically defined before everybody starts quoting their numbers! :wink:

Bryan

 

[Bryan]

There must be an evolutionary explanation for male pattern baldness.

I think the argument outlined in "Beards, Balding, and Sweat Secretion" makes as much sense as any other theory I've read about: balding evolved in certain primates to provide extra cooling for the brain.

Bryan

But if this is the case, why doesn't it present equally in men and women? Surely we should see less male pattern baldness in colder regions?

That's a fair question, and I think the simplest and most likely explanation is that from an evolutionary standpoint, male pattern baldness is a relatively recent phenomenon. Sometime in our recent history, a chance mutation of some sort occurred which caused the growth of scalp hair to be suppressed by androgens. Since that (presumably) proved to have a mild evolutionary advantage, males with that trait very gradually became more numerous as time went by. The only problem is that the chance mutation just had to do with ANDROGENS, and the males obviously had a lot more androgen than the females. Therefore, the females haven't yet fully "caught up" with the males in that department, although there is presumably an evolutionary pressure in that direction. Furthermore, it's interesting to point out here that in stumptailed macaques, males AND females bald at about the same rate. Evidently, their females HAVE managed to "catch up" with their males!

That's my basic thinking on the subject.

Bryan

 

[Armando Jose]

I don't want to put too much attention on this but one thing I know is that the 'horseshoe' (back and sides of the head) have been massaged for eons or at least since the day you were born (by a pillow)

Very interesting thought. My theory goes paralell to it, but regarding the importance of sebum flow.
http://www.againstalopeciaandbaldness.com

The only problem is that the chance mutation just had to do with ANDROGENS, and the males obviously had a lot more androgen than the females

Androgens inside the hair follicle are the important ones in common baldness. Do you agreed?

Armando

 

[bobmer]

sebum has extremely little to do with hair loss, i think.

androgens inside the follicles

I think what you meant was the sensitivity of follicles to androgens.

Here is one thing I know. Cells, of which we are made of - about 50 billion of them - are alive can many can survive and multiply outside the human body if put in the right environment. If you you put them in a harsh environment (starve, odd temperatures, harsh chemicals) some may die but some may react in an attempt to adjust or adapt to those environments. If you starve them, some will produce (properly or erronousely) more receptors that will make them more sensitive in an attempt to catalyze (or to eat) more nutrients.

I believe that scalp vertex follicles are being subjected to harshed conditions.

 

[Pondle]

I believe that scalp vertex follicles are being subjected to harshed conditions.

Yes but even if you believe that scalp follicles are being subject to "unnaturally harsh" conditions - a controversial contention - the fact is that some people go bald, and others don't, when exposed to those same conditions.

 

[Bryan]

Androgens inside the hair follicle are the important ones in common baldness. Do you agreed?

The important ones are testosterone from outside the hair follicle, and DHT from inside the hair follicle.

Bryan

 

[Bryan]

androgens inside the follicles

I think what you meant was the sensitivity of follicles to androgens.

That's not what he meant.

 

[bobmer]

Yes but even if you believe that scalp follicles are being subject to "unnaturally harsh" conditions - a controversial contention - the fact is that some people go bald, and others don't, when exposed to those same conditions.

No, I believe that in susceptible men, follicles are exposed to harsh environments. I believe that even in non-bald men, the same exposure will damage the follicles.

The difference would be the physiological, neuro and biochemical mechanisms and environments that affect blood circulation in both 'types' of men. This means that in non-bald men, these follicles being treated normally.

A recent experiment that involved male and female mice may indicate that male hormones play a less-than significant role in pattern hair loss.
In this experiment, immunodeficient male and female mice were grafted with scalp tissue that contained vellus looking hairs from human male and female donors affected by pattern hair loss 8.
In 15 to 20 weeks after the transplant, the vellus looking hair grew into terminal (normal) hair. The then vellus looking hair even surpassed the terminal hairs in diameter. The fact that the results were equally the same with male and female mice 8 is an indication that there is something else in humans besides androgenetic factors.
8. Transplants from balding and hairy androgenetic alopecia scalp regrow hair comparably well on immunodeficient mice Rozlyn A. Krajcik, PhD, Joseph H. Vogelman, DEE, Virginia L. Malloy, MS, and Norman Orentreich, MD Cold Spring-on-Hudson, New York

CAN SOMEONE TELL ME WHERE THE SUPPOSED 'ANDROGEN DEPENDENT OR SENSITIVE FOLLICLES ARE???

 

[So]

:whaasup:

I've been studying all day today, the thought of reading this entire post makes my head want to explode. :freaked2:

I suppose the fact that I have been studying an exerting mental processes is contributing to my hair falling out by the looks of some of the information found in this post.

Anyway, do me a favor, tell me how to buy this book. You mentioned it was only $10. Come on, I want to read this text and put your claims to the test.

 

[bobmer]

Anyway, do me a favor, tell me how to buy this book. You mentioned it was only $10. Come on, I want to read this text and put your claims to the test.

That's my problem with this nerd friend of mine. He wants a database of 10,000 interested buyers before we start printing. Thus far, we only have 300++ in our database. That's not even enough to pay for the time I spent in the forums. I'm probably not good at selling and need some help. No one on this site seems to be interested but you. I'm about to move on to other sites but I must say kudos to this site for being fair despite the competition they face from posters.