no doubt about that... just brotzu is not that alternative, unfortnatelly I am 100% sure we have to stick on Fina for at least 5 more years before something "substituable" might really come out...
Italian Hair Loss Lotion To Hit The Market In 2016
- Thread starter paleocapa89
- Start date
no doubt about that... just brotzu is not that alternative, unfortnatelly I am 100% sure we have to stick on Fina for at least 5 more years before something "substituable" might really come out...
- Reaction score
- 38
What happens with patients/people who don't tolerate Finasteride? 5 years is too much....
- Reaction score
- 1,709
They drop the finasteride and go bald, lmfao. What do you mean what happens? The same thing that's been happening since the dawn of humanity.
- Reaction score
- 217
Why?
- Reaction score
- 4,609
its over thats what happens lol
I honestly think in 5 years we might not have much different than what exists now. I certainly would not wait for future stuff versus using what we have now. Maybe even experiment with dutasteride or RU. Dont wait. None of this stuff might ever get finished.
Wait for fidia. If you have already started it wouldn't make sense to stop it but for all of you did not start, wait for it. There will be something very soon that will be awesome. Almost 10.000 answers and 500 pages...
I have found one of their first mails from last year. They have seen the results of Prof Brotzu and were impressed, so they bought the rights. Their own trial started in March 2016 and on March 29th 2017 they expanded their patent in many European countries which means that they had their final results 3-4 months ago.
A few days ago Spiga92 made this extremely interesting comment about the full recovery of a Norwood 3-4...
Here is one of the first mails from fidia. It's nothing new but just a confirmation that a well known company does not buy a patent for something that its not working and then spend a year to test something and pay much money for it. Does not make sense. They know that it works:
In response to your mail, we provide you with some information about the project, which we feel may be useful.
Regarding the alopecia remedy studied by Professor Brotzu, in collaboration with some researchers from the University of Cagliari for the formative development part, Fidia points out that this is a scientific discovery with the very interesting potential that has pushed the company To acquire its intellectual property and to commit itself to making it a real opportunity for all patients who are afflicted with this problem.
Fidia hopes to begin a clinical trial next March, according to a defined protocol and whose formulation will then be industrially developed.
We are unable to predict the results of efficacy and tolerability today, which will have to be proven by the study itself, with statistically significant evidence.
For this reason a precise timing for product marketing and subsequent communication plan has not yet been developed.
Please share this mail, even with people who like you are interested in a remedy for alopecia, so you do not create false expectations.
We will keep up-to-date with the developments of our study and consequently marketed solution.
We are available for any clarification and we cordially greet you
lol I got banned on another forum 'cos apparently they do not like somebody to argue against the Brotzu lotion... ridiculous... either you keep saying brotzu will work brotzu will work or you get banned? Of course this is just my impression, but I am starting to wonder whether some hairloss forums might have some economic interests behind this lotion, that they have to hype the product before we even have any single proof of their effects? 'Cos I really cannot understand how somebody can so strongly believe in something without any scientific proof, to the extent that users which say the opposite get banned... I'll just leave this forum as well before you ban me for my opinions, keep putting faith in the Brotzu lotion without any proof it works, if that makes you feel better. Not interested in discussing with people that restrict freedom of expression. IF AND WHEN proofs of the Brotzu lotion working will be released, I'll be the first one to be happy of admitting I was wrong.
Goodbye
Goodbye
- Reaction score
- 1,242
You are arguing with people over a non existent lotion without any proofs of working or not working. (What isn't logical at all). Your side is senseless as the other side and it doesn't matter what is logic or not, because we are just talking about a hypothetical product for hair loss without exactly knowing what the problem is for hair loss. (Although there are patents, pics, trials, a big company and a well known Dr.)
There is just one word for arguing here: HOPE
- Reaction score
- 1,623
Today I had the time to translate the second essay of Brotzu at SITRI, the actual source is this video:
I got the idea this morning, reading the thread of @That Guy that was missing the SITRI parts.
So:
- " A lot of works published recently brought a lot to the hairloss matter. Many things are said in a lot of researches, but nobody says PRECISELY what is the MAIN and the LAST factor that causes all types of Alopecia. I said "all types", not a particular one. "
( Comments the slide "Factors that act on the microcirculation )
- " There was this research, conducted in 2008, which says that fundamentally many problems were found on the level of microcirculation of the hair bulbs. It talks about ICAM and ELAM, two molecules that may block microcirculation at all levels. When we debate with biomedical engineers who always pretend to find formulas regarding the circulation's parameters - I remember once when a bunch of them came to held a lesson regarding the mathematical aspects of the problems of the blood stream in the vessel, I let him finish, and then I asked him: 'and ELAM? And ICAM? What do they do in this?', and he answered: 'What are those?'. Well, he didn't know, but they are one of the factors that may completely shift all of those parameters. "
( Positively Charged (...) slide is now presented )
- "Well, we thought the molecules that we wanted to use { refers to his first speak in that morning } could have been incapsulated in liposomes positively charged. On this, a research exists, that I have reported here, and that says if we put a generic molecule into a liposome, on the order of 100nm, 100NM, and if we positively charge it, that attaches to the skin and carries beyond the substances. Our researches were made using radioactive compounds, so they were totally re-trackable after penetrating the skin, revealing their attachment and adhesion. "
( Slide PROMOTING EFFECT (...) comes up )
- " So, let's now see what we developed. Our first researches were carried using PGE1, which has the effect to stimulate endothelial cells, in particular their reproduction, bettering the local microcirculation. Is normally a molecule used in vascular surgeries. It just has a flaw, terrible: if I inject it intra-vena, when it reaches the polmones, the 80% of it gets metabolized and so lost. In our first experiments on ulceras, we directly injected PGE1 in-arteria, and in the follow-up of the patients we noticed that, if PGE1 survived, was able to dilate the vessel and the case went good, if PGE1 wasn't able to do that and got lost, the case went bad. "
( Shifts slide to the scheme )
- "Fast forward to the next experimentations, at that time we had a situation. First thing is, we had a product that was a drug. Being a drug, for its release, it would have had to pass phase 1, phase 2 and phase 3 experimentations. That means that we could have talked here only in 5-6 years from now on, if not more, with a pharmaceutical company that must have spent 20-30 millions of Euro. So we asked ourselves: 'from where does PGE1 originate from?'. It forms itself into our bodies, through the action of a bunch of enzymes, starting from well known fatty acids. The fact is we produce too low of it to be beneficial for the matter. In particular, if we take Linoleic Acid, that normally has 16 Carboniums { noise in the audio } (...) and if we take DGLA, with a simple cyclooxigenasis it can become PGE1. So if we tried to put DGLA into the liposomes - oh, and, note that the experimentation on PGE1 into those was made by myself something like 6 years ago - we noticed that this system worked well. And the thing became bigger because a person put the remedy on his head and reported that his hairs were not falling anymore: this story became more and more famous and the entire Policlinico was literally obsessed with it. We prepared a topical remedy of it in our labs for a small bunch of people when we were preparing other products, but we didn't care much of this story because we knew for the reasons exposed before that PGE1 was practically unusable. Then we thought of using DGLA, which figures in good quantities in mais oil, it is a molecule that is not considered as a drug. Then we treated with that more and more patients - oh, and logically, all of these things, before being tested on humans, were tested on rats. I'm convinced that the quantities needed were very small - note that when we injected PGE1 intra-vena on diabethic patients, when carried into cathionic liposomes, only 1/7 of the canonical dose was needed. We were on the order of nanos, quantities used were extremely low compared to canonical doses. So, I was saying, we then used DGLA, carrying it into cathionic liposomes, and we used it to treat various people afflicted by all types of Alopecia. (...) "
( Shows "Quando La Lozione funziona!" )
- " (...) and after our experimentations, we gathered all kind of observations. First, alive follicles are needed for the hairs to grow; if follicles are dead we could apply even high doses, but only road in this case remains hair transplant, as your colleague presented before. Response of patients may vary: maximum efficacy is when patients are younger than 25 - this comes from the fact that we initially used the remedy on people affected by Androgenetic Alopecia, not on children affected by areata. We observed that in people over 30 years, the response was more variable to the time passed since the hair loss occurred. Focusing now on Alopecia Areata, if there are small problems, the response is always rapid and immediate. We treated a bunch of children and they responded after just 3 or 4 months. "
( now it's 9:48 of the video, changes slide to some tables )
- " So I carried an experimentation for a pharmaceutical company, so these are the results, comprehensive of pull test, videodermoscopy and trichogram, and we registered also the grade of satisfaction of the patients treated. A main problem was reported: the lotions needs to be stored into the fridge. Once the bottle is opened and the treatment begins, the liquid may decay and becomes unusable. "
( We are at 10:26, shows the first pic of the child )
- " This is the first child treated. I am a surgeon, when they brought her to me I didn't even want to treat her, I admit. But..."
( Shows next slide )
- " After 4 months..."
(Shows the rest of slides and the photos in range of 2 months each)
( Then, at 11:03 )
- " This is another child, brought to us in May, in this condition, I absolutely did not know how he would have reacted to the treatment. He was from PerdasDeFogu, historical city of Sardinia created near coal mines, and { shifts slide } this is how he is now. "
( Changes slide, 11:32, to show another patient )
- " This is a 20 years old woman, { changes } how was after 4 months, { changes } how she is now { changes }. She went the other day, on Friday, for the final checkup, now this woman does no more use a wig, and she got her hairs long approximately 5 centimetres. "
( 12:01, changes again to show another )
- " And this is a 40 years old woman, after having a kid she caught this Androgenetic Totalis syndrome. [Corrects himself] Oh, Areata, sorry, lapsus. { changes slide } This was her skin zoomed on the microscope, there was absolutely nothing. Since I am not an expert, videodermoscopy was conducted by dermatologists - when I was analyzing the first patients using the dermoscope I didn't even know what were they doing, then they even teached it to me. { changes slide } So, after 4 months, { changes } her situation changed. { changes again } How she is now, { changes } and how the situation evolved. { changes again but made a mistake and goes back } so this is how some of our patients evolved to give you a concrete example. After this congress to which I was invited, I didn't absolutely know such things you all presented because it is not my field and it didn't interested me before my discoveries, { points to a colleague, joking } when I listened to your exposition, those things regarding the brain and the scalp were the only that I knew, because I'm a close friend of a brain surgeon and he taught me them - Oh, and also, the practical exams. "
( 13:54 , goes back to the slides and shifts to the overview )
- " These are the results, see, overall it was an excellent experimentation. Just 2 patients were not satisfied, but since they were not from Sardinia but instead from Sicily, we firmly believe that the remedy got deteriorated due to the high temperatures - it was middle summer - and to the travel by plane. As you can see we have always positive results, I insist on the first child because she didn't have a single hair and regrew all of them. This product as I said was first tested on Androgenetic Alopecia, then in a particular case of post menopausal women afflicted by Androgenetic Alopecia and for that one was published an arcticle on the paper Il Dermatologo, that I didn't even know since I didn't publish on dermalogy papers, the last year on the first number. So, these are the results and there is nothing left to say for me, thank you all. "
( Applauded, Dr. Marliani comes back at 15:22 to moderate the public, people start askingnhim questions but the microphone was already shut down, a woman shouts for the mic, but the problem persists, diffcult to hear what the doctor says next, but I understood some)
- " (...) The only thing I know aside, is that a company is currently trialing the lotion on Androgenetic Alopecia in Milan, but I don't know much more."
( The woman then asks for the product's name)
- " It does not have a name, it will have it, after the commercial release for sure { unheareable speech } (...) - Oh, and a thing I did not mention: we added Equol to the formulation, which blocks the 5 alpha reductase, and so limiting the % of usable DHT circulating. The two molecules together, DGLA and Equol, work way better. We tested with only PGE1, then only DGLA, then we combined the products and put them into cathionic liposomes, so into them there is DGLA and Equol in the final formulation in the quantities of { couldn't understand } (...) , we used very small quantities. There is no effect of inflammation, no effect of inhibition on the functioning of any other organ, we did not experience any side effect at all in all of our experiments. Thank you for the attention. "
Sorry for grammar errors.
I got the idea this morning, reading the thread of @That Guy that was missing the SITRI parts.
So:
- " A lot of works published recently brought a lot to the hairloss matter. Many things are said in a lot of researches, but nobody says PRECISELY what is the MAIN and the LAST factor that causes all types of Alopecia. I said "all types", not a particular one. "
( Comments the slide "Factors that act on the microcirculation )
- " There was this research, conducted in 2008, which says that fundamentally many problems were found on the level of microcirculation of the hair bulbs. It talks about ICAM and ELAM, two molecules that may block microcirculation at all levels. When we debate with biomedical engineers who always pretend to find formulas regarding the circulation's parameters - I remember once when a bunch of them came to held a lesson regarding the mathematical aspects of the problems of the blood stream in the vessel, I let him finish, and then I asked him: 'and ELAM? And ICAM? What do they do in this?', and he answered: 'What are those?'. Well, he didn't know, but they are one of the factors that may completely shift all of those parameters. "
( Positively Charged (...) slide is now presented )
- "Well, we thought the molecules that we wanted to use { refers to his first speak in that morning } could have been incapsulated in liposomes positively charged. On this, a research exists, that I have reported here, and that says if we put a generic molecule into a liposome, on the order of 100nm, 100NM, and if we positively charge it, that attaches to the skin and carries beyond the substances. Our researches were made using radioactive compounds, so they were totally re-trackable after penetrating the skin, revealing their attachment and adhesion. "
( Slide PROMOTING EFFECT (...) comes up )
- " So, let's now see what we developed. Our first researches were carried using PGE1, which has the effect to stimulate endothelial cells, in particular their reproduction, bettering the local microcirculation. Is normally a molecule used in vascular surgeries. It just has a flaw, terrible: if I inject it intra-vena, when it reaches the polmones, the 80% of it gets metabolized and so lost. In our first experiments on ulceras, we directly injected PGE1 in-arteria, and in the follow-up of the patients we noticed that, if PGE1 survived, was able to dilate the vessel and the case went good, if PGE1 wasn't able to do that and got lost, the case went bad. "
( Shifts slide to the scheme )
- "Fast forward to the next experimentations, at that time we had a situation. First thing is, we had a product that was a drug. Being a drug, for its release, it would have had to pass phase 1, phase 2 and phase 3 experimentations. That means that we could have talked here only in 5-6 years from now on, if not more, with a pharmaceutical company that must have spent 20-30 millions of Euro. So we asked ourselves: 'from where does PGE1 originate from?'. It forms itself into our bodies, through the action of a bunch of enzymes, starting from well known fatty acids. The fact is we produce too low of it to be beneficial for the matter. In particular, if we take Linoleic Acid, that normally has 16 Carboniums { noise in the audio } (...) and if we take DGLA, with a simple cyclooxigenasis it can become PGE1. So if we tried to put DGLA into the liposomes - oh, and, note that the experimentation on PGE1 into those was made by myself something like 6 years ago - we noticed that this system worked well. And the thing became bigger because a person put the remedy on his head and reported that his hairs were not falling anymore: this story became more and more famous and the entire Policlinico was literally obsessed with it. We prepared a topical remedy of it in our labs for a small bunch of people when we were preparing other products, but we didn't care much of this story because we knew for the reasons exposed before that PGE1 was practically unusable. Then we thought of using DGLA, which figures in good quantities in mais oil, it is a molecule that is not considered as a drug. Then we treated with that more and more patients - oh, and logically, all of these things, before being tested on humans, were tested on rats. I'm convinced that the quantities needed were very small - note that when we injected PGE1 intra-vena on diabethic patients, when carried into cathionic liposomes, only 1/7 of the canonical dose was needed. We were on the order of nanos, quantities used were extremely low compared to canonical doses. So, I was saying, we then used DGLA, carrying it into cathionic liposomes, and we used it to treat various people afflicted by all types of Alopecia. (...) "
( Shows "Quando La Lozione funziona!" )
- " (...) and after our experimentations, we gathered all kind of observations. First, alive follicles are needed for the hairs to grow; if follicles are dead we could apply even high doses, but only road in this case remains hair transplant, as your colleague presented before. Response of patients may vary: maximum efficacy is when patients are younger than 25 - this comes from the fact that we initially used the remedy on people affected by Androgenetic Alopecia, not on children affected by areata. We observed that in people over 30 years, the response was more variable to the time passed since the hair loss occurred. Focusing now on Alopecia Areata, if there are small problems, the response is always rapid and immediate. We treated a bunch of children and they responded after just 3 or 4 months. "
( now it's 9:48 of the video, changes slide to some tables )
- " So I carried an experimentation for a pharmaceutical company, so these are the results, comprehensive of pull test, videodermoscopy and trichogram, and we registered also the grade of satisfaction of the patients treated. A main problem was reported: the lotions needs to be stored into the fridge. Once the bottle is opened and the treatment begins, the liquid may decay and becomes unusable. "
( We are at 10:26, shows the first pic of the child )
- " This is the first child treated. I am a surgeon, when they brought her to me I didn't even want to treat her, I admit. But..."
( Shows next slide )
- " After 4 months..."
(Shows the rest of slides and the photos in range of 2 months each)
( Then, at 11:03 )
- " This is another child, brought to us in May, in this condition, I absolutely did not know how he would have reacted to the treatment. He was from PerdasDeFogu, historical city of Sardinia created near coal mines, and { shifts slide } this is how he is now. "
( Changes slide, 11:32, to show another patient )
- " This is a 20 years old woman, { changes } how was after 4 months, { changes } how she is now { changes }. She went the other day, on Friday, for the final checkup, now this woman does no more use a wig, and she got her hairs long approximately 5 centimetres. "
( 12:01, changes again to show another )
- " And this is a 40 years old woman, after having a kid she caught this Androgenetic Totalis syndrome. [Corrects himself] Oh, Areata, sorry, lapsus. { changes slide } This was her skin zoomed on the microscope, there was absolutely nothing. Since I am not an expert, videodermoscopy was conducted by dermatologists - when I was analyzing the first patients using the dermoscope I didn't even know what were they doing, then they even teached it to me. { changes slide } So, after 4 months, { changes } her situation changed. { changes again } How she is now, { changes } and how the situation evolved. { changes again but made a mistake and goes back } so this is how some of our patients evolved to give you a concrete example. After this congress to which I was invited, I didn't absolutely know such things you all presented because it is not my field and it didn't interested me before my discoveries, { points to a colleague, joking } when I listened to your exposition, those things regarding the brain and the scalp were the only that I knew, because I'm a close friend of a brain surgeon and he taught me them - Oh, and also, the practical exams. "
( 13:54 , goes back to the slides and shifts to the overview )
- " These are the results, see, overall it was an excellent experimentation. Just 2 patients were not satisfied, but since they were not from Sardinia but instead from Sicily, we firmly believe that the remedy got deteriorated due to the high temperatures - it was middle summer - and to the travel by plane. As you can see we have always positive results, I insist on the first child because she didn't have a single hair and regrew all of them. This product as I said was first tested on Androgenetic Alopecia, then in a particular case of post menopausal women afflicted by Androgenetic Alopecia and for that one was published an arcticle on the paper Il Dermatologo, that I didn't even know since I didn't publish on dermalogy papers, the last year on the first number. So, these are the results and there is nothing left to say for me, thank you all. "
( Applauded, Dr. Marliani comes back at 15:22 to moderate the public, people start askingnhim questions but the microphone was already shut down, a woman shouts for the mic, but the problem persists, diffcult to hear what the doctor says next, but I understood some)
- " (...) The only thing I know aside, is that a company is currently trialing the lotion on Androgenetic Alopecia in Milan, but I don't know much more."
( The woman then asks for the product's name)
- " It does not have a name, it will have it, after the commercial release for sure { unheareable speech } (...) - Oh, and a thing I did not mention: we added Equol to the formulation, which blocks the 5 alpha reductase, and so limiting the % of usable DHT circulating. The two molecules together, DGLA and Equol, work way better. We tested with only PGE1, then only DGLA, then we combined the products and put them into cathionic liposomes, so into them there is DGLA and Equol in the final formulation in the quantities of { couldn't understand } (...) , we used very small quantities. There is no effect of inflammation, no effect of inhibition on the functioning of any other organ, we did not experience any side effect at all in all of our experiments. Thank you for the attention. "
Sorry for grammar errors.
Last edited:
- Reaction score
- 8,250
it sounds like the main problem with Fidia/lotion may be the stability...that this is most likely what they are working on.
- Reaction score
- 8,250
I think recent hairs lossed--probably from 2 to 5 years generally speaking.
If you are bald for 15 years it's not going to bring back that hair in most people...never full head, maybe a few hairs, hard to say.
hair loss after a number of years the muscle detaches from the follicle and that is the source of stem cells...once that muscle detaches its too damaged to come back. There is debate on this however that follicles never die..I do think they are too damaged though to come back.
If you do a biopsy of advance Androgenic alopecia it will look to a derma pathologist similar, if not the same as 'scarring' alopecia...scarring alopecia is irreversible, permanent hair loss.
The time line of this happening, I do not know. I am going to guess generally 2 to 5 years (maybe more depending on age perhaps).
- Reaction score
- 1,242
So f*** we still need Tsuji...
- Reaction score
- 8,250
lol we need ALL of them.
Look how some people respond to minoxidil and some people don't.
look how some people respond to finasteride and some don't
some people respond to spironolactone and some don't.
some peopled do great with Ru and it does nothing for others.
The list goes on.
We need as many treatments or 'cures' that they are willing to research and approve for us.
- Reaction score
- 4,609
- Reaction score
- 1,242
Nearly 500 pages and I really hoped it could bring at least some hairs back and would be good in combination with Shiseido and Follica,but the translation killed my hope for this "treatment"
- Reaction score
- 8,250
Nearly 500 pages and I really hoped it could bring at least some hairs back and would be good in combination with Shiseido and Follica,but the translation killed my hope for this "treatment"
No disrespect but he never claimed to regrow hair that was lost passed 5 years and even less so in older people (not 20s) thats not 500 pages that was from first interview I believe.
- Reaction score
- 6,428
he's talking about alopecia areata