Leave Your Hormones Alone

[docj077]

DHT is not the culprit in male pattern baldness. Fibrosis caused by something that DHT does to the cell results in the attack of the follicle by your immune system and is visible as miniaturization. Is it not entirely possible that the cycles of maintenance and shedding on hormonal suppresants like finasteride and dutasteride result from our bodies compensating for an increase in testosterone. Suppressing DHT is a quick fix for a lifelong condition and even the celebrated 5-year propecia study shows that hair will continue to deteriorate. Bodily DHT deprivation is not worth the costs and lacks benefit unless you have BPH.

The only way to stop the balding process dead in its tracks is to stop the inflammation of the hair follicle. Suppression of DHT is one way to do this but there are many others. Below I have listed proven anti-fibrosis substances. Feel free to add to the list and discuss those I have listed. If anyone has had success with these please say which product you attribute it to and the rest of your regimine as well.

Anti-inflammatories
Essential Fatty Acids (Flax Oil, others)
Garlic
Emu Oil

Anti-oxidants
SOD (topical Cu/Zn and internal gliSODin)
SOD mimetics (TEMPOL)
Circumin
Grape Seed Extract
Green Tea
Fruits and Veggies

Could an anti-fibrotic regimine in combination with topical spironolactone be more effective than one based on hormone reducing drugs. I think it can and with products like Graftcyte selling for $150 I think there are people in the pharmaceutical industry that know this and are keeping quiet.

JAYMAN, PLEASE BAN THIS GUY

Being stupid isn't a bannable offense.

I don't understand. His ideas are based upon current hair loss research. However, the items listed above won't necessarily cure anything in the low doses we take. Is that the problem or is the building of one's confidence through experimentation not allowed here anymore?

 

[viperfish]

michael barry,

i really think that avodart once a day is all that people need to maintain their hair for decades and decades. this other stuff is great for regrowth and stuff but if all people want is to maintain, then avodart and maybe nizoral two-three times a week is really all that 99% of people need.

And how do you know this??? I have been on these boards for so long (a good 5-6 years). I can't tell you the number of people that I have seen come on here and after 2-5 years of finasteride or dutasteride usage are now losing ground. To me these drugs are nothing, but short term answers.

 

[Guest]

I don't understand. His ideas are based upon current hair loss research. However, the items listed above won't necessarily cure anything in the low doses we take. Is that the problem or is the building of one's confidence through experimentation not allowed here anymore?

Doctor, he can post whatever he wants. i think a lot of people took issue with the statement in his original post that "DHT is not the culprit in male pattern baldness". eliminating dht from the body is not a perfect fix but it seems to work for most people at stopping hair loss when it's eliminated close to 100%. we can all debate whether it is good or worthwhile to do this, but i don't think there's any question that it has worked for a lot of people at stopping their hair loss, especially when most of us are just buying time till newer and better treatments come out. i agree with michael barry.

 

[docj077]

I don't understand. His ideas are based upon current hair loss research. However, the items listed above won't necessarily cure anything in the low doses we take. Is that the problem or is the building of one's confidence through experimentation not allowed here anymore?

Doctor, he can post whatever he wants. i think a lot of people took issue with the statement in his original post that "DHT is not the culprit in male pattern baldness". eliminating dht from the body is not a perfect fix but it seems to work for most people at stopping hair loss when it's eliminated close to 100%. we can all debate whether it is good or worthwhile to do this, but i don't think there's any question that it has worked for a lot of people at stopping their hair loss, especially when most of us are just buying time till newer and better treatments come out. i agree with michael barry.

I agree. There is no question that the removal of DHT from the body is beneficial in male pattern baldness.

 

[Guest]

I don't understand. His ideas are based upon current hair loss research. However, the items listed above won't necessarily cure anything in the low doses we take. Is that the problem or is the building of one's confidence through experimentation not allowed here anymore?

Doctor, he can post whatever he wants. i think a lot of people took issue with the statement in his original post that "DHT is not the culprit in male pattern baldness". eliminating dht from the body is not a perfect fix but it seems to work for most people at stopping hair loss when it's eliminated close to 100%. we can all debate whether it is good or worthwhile to do this, but i don't think there's any question that it has worked for a lot of people at stopping their hair loss, especially when most of us are just buying time till newer and better treatments come out. i agree with michael barry.

I agree. There is no question that the removal of DHT from the body is beneficial in male pattern baldness.

And if someone values their hair, like really values it, as much as I do, I don't see why they wouldn't at least TRY finasteride or dutasteride. Money isn't an issue because generics are cheap as hell online. If someone can afford to be on the computer, they can afford the drugs.

Sides are a risk and so are other stuff, and maybe I'm different from other people on here, but I just didn't give a sh*t. I was going to keep my hair at almost any cost. I think that even had I gotten nasty sexual sides from Avodart like a big drop in libido, I would have stayed on it, regardless. That's how much having hair means to me. Other people have to decide for themselves how important it is to them.

 

[blaze]

Michael Barry,

have you ever tested Flutamide topically?

 

[vq0]

the amount of people unaware of the potential long term side effects of finasteride/dutasteride and the promotion of these drugs on the board to individuals who are not fully developed is astounding. Not everyone is willing to risk their penises or health for a head of hair that will last another five years tops. I am trying to raise awareness into other areas of treatment and if anyone has a problem with it I will stop.

 

[Guest]

vg0,

five years tops huh?

look you can promote whatever you want on here, but don't lie.

if you look at the merck propecia graphs, the average user is still baseline or above on propecia after 7 users. no similar avodart graph that i know of exists but the average user for avodart is certainly still baseline or above after 10 years. and the declines on both drugs are very slow. i'm going to trust bryan and michael barry over you.

 

[haunted-ballroom]

vg0,

five years tops huh?

look you can promote whatever you want on here, but don't lie.

if you look at the merck propecia graphs, the average user is still baseline or above on propecia after 7 users. no similar avodart graph that i know of exists but the average user for avodart is certainly still baseline or above after 10 years. and the declines on both drugs are very slow. i'm going to trust bryan and michael barry over you.

7 years seems pretty good! But, have people been reported to start loseing hair again after the 7 years or is it just 7 years so far....if that makes sense

 

[michael barry]

Blaze,

Yes, I have. I used it on my head for one full week. I started to get a little nausea within three days and couldn't lift my dick with a crowbar by the third day or so. I ended using it on day five. Like the hamster flank organ tests showed, it just gets absorbed systemically and unless one is planning on being a male-to-female transexual, I wouldn't recommend it.


Finasteride and Nizoral 2-3 times a week with topical spironolactone a couple of times a day on the days you didn't use nizoral (no need to) would be a great way for a young fella just startin' to lose it to keep if for years in my opinion. I really think we will have cloning within 10 years at the most at this point too Blaze. You younger guys are lucky and will probably never have to lose signifigant amounts of hair. Best of luck.

 

[Guest]

vg0,

five years tops huh?

look you can promote whatever you want on here, but don't lie.

if you look at the merck propecia graphs, the average user is still baseline or above on propecia after 7 users. no similar avodart graph that i know of exists but the average user for avodart is certainly still baseline or above after 10 years. and the declines on both drugs are very slow. i'm going to trust bryan and michael barry over you.

7 years seems pretty good! But, have people been reported to start loseing hair again after the 7 years or is it just 7 years so far....if that makes sense

the decline started after 2 years for the average user. hair counts were at its peak after 2 years on the drug then it was a very slow decline with the average user still like 40 hairs above baseline in the test area after 5 years. extrapolating it out, the average user hit baseline on propecia at about 7 years. but in terms of it being noticeable, it would probably take 12 years total after starting it for people to notice a difference between baseline and the 12 year mark since the decline is that slow. dutasteride would have a slower decline in my opinion, much slower even, due to the ridiculously high dht inhibition.

in the 5 year merck study, when the propecia hair count starts to decline, it's only declining at about 15-20% of the speed of the placebo user's hair count. this may be because 1 mg of propecia a day only blocks 85% of type II DHT in the follicle or whatever. But avodart blocks 98.5% of type II DHT in the follicle so even being generous, the avodart decline may only be 5% the speed of the placebo decline, meaning that it could take 20 years for the average avodart user to lose as much hair as 1 year on placebo.

 

[qqwertyuiop2000]

Hey guys

First off let me say this has been a great discussion

Im 22 in a few days and since 19 ive been experiencing male pattern baldness

Now i followed all the approved stuff and have been on the big 3 since 19.

The problem is ive noticed im still losing ground so there has to be more than simply DHT causing this s***.

Hence can we agree that if the big 3 are not working you should try the natural alternatives adjunct to the big 3?

Ive become a bit nuts about this so you can tell me if what im using is crazy?

Generic proscar
Multivitamin
L-Arginine
Green Tea Extract
Grape seed Extract
MSM
Omega 3
Ginko Biloba Extract
L-lysine
L-Taurine
Super Absorbable Soy Isoflavones
Natural Estrogen with Pomegranate Extract
Curmurin

Topicals
Day
Folligen
Minixodil

Night
Generic minixodil
Retin A
spironolactone


Shampoo
Tricomin
Nizoral 2%
NANO

GREAT TOPIC

 

[blaze]

Finasteride and Nizoral 2-3 times a week with topical spironolactone a couple of times a day on the days you didn't use nizoral (no need to) would be a great way for a young fella just startin' to lose it to keep if for years in my opinion. I really think we will have cloning within 10 years at the most at this point too Blaze. You younger guys are lucky and will probably never have to lose signifigant amounts of hair. Best of luck.

Thx Michael.

But do really think Nizoral is that potent? Isnt it only a mild anti-androgen? After all its only left on your scalp for 10 minutes max. How much could actually get through to the follicle?

And do you think there is much difference between spironolactone at a 2% strength as opposed to 5%?

 

[Old Baldy]

waseda regime doesn't involve topical SODs and apple poly. I think these two things are potent enough to stop hair loss if applied 2x a day. Does anyone have experience with these two supps?

I agree with all you guys relative to reducing fibrosis, etc.

Vq0: One of Waseda's main treatments, bayberry extract, not only inhibits DHT by roughly 40 percent (via anti-androgen AND 5AR enzyme inhibition IIRC), but it has SOD like properties as well. (I use it about 3-4 times a week.) Waseda also highly recommended grape seed extract. Not as strong as apple poly but still pretty strong from what I've read.

Waseda was very well aware of apple poly, however, at that time it was extremely expensive. But he knew about it.

Bayberry extract was tested in vivo and I posted the study on this site a while back. I'll see if I can retrieve it and post it again.

(Waseda and Bryan discussed this plant extract many times in the past btw. Which is why I looked into this extract and other plant extracts much more than I had initially.)

Here's a link to the actual study article.

http://www.jstage.jst.go.jp/article/bpb/24/3/259/_pdf

Also, reading up on various plant extracts, it became clear to me that many of these extracts have some SODase activity. Most are not strong at this but have this positive affect nonetheless.

Two of the strongest SODases, from what I've read, are Tempo/Tempol/Tempo-H and PBN. Both are used by Doctor Proctor in his products.

His Nano shampoo has Tempol or Tempo-H in it but not PBN btw. PBN and the Tempo derivatives are used in his Proxiphen Rx and Proxiphen-N.

Some dermatologists say idebenone stops the free radical reaction and they rave about its benefit to the skin when the powder is mixed into concoctions. You could try that.

Just a tidbit on where Waseda led me (and Bryan with his inputs and being a proponent of green tea extract). Waseda strongly recommended mulberry root extract for regrowth. It tested very well in vitro, HOWEVER, the patent on this substance included 50 percent of its ingredients as persimmon leaf extract as well. Waseda seemed to have missed this important fact?

Guess what persimmon leaf extract exhibits from further reading? You guessed it - SODase activity IIRC! There was a third herb, paulownia leaf powder used in the patent that gave even better results when combined with the other two herbs but I can't find a source for it.

The in vitro results listed 121 percent increased growth over placebo with just the mulberry root extract. Adding the persimmon leaf extract, at 50 percent of the concoction, led to 188 percent increased growth over placebo!! So yes, SODases can help IMHO and you can get them from quite a few plant extracts.

 

[vq0]

that is a very interesting article and i'm glad you posted it. I wonder what would happen if you applied one of these SODases or even pure SOD along with emu oil. With the increased penetration shouldn't the effects be even more pronounced.

 

[Old Baldy]

that is a very interesting article and i'm glad you posted it. I wonder what would happen if you applied one of these SODases or even pure SOD along with emu oil. With the increased penetration shouldn't the effects be even more pronounced.

I'd say YES!! However, pure SOD, from what I've read, has WAY to high a molecular weight to penetrate the skin effectively. Thus the reason for using SODases and plant extracts because many of them have SODase type activity.

I made an infused oil batch yesterday (i.e., hot processed method) with bayberry as one of the herbs. Guess what I also used.... mulberry root and persimmon leaf powders. This was my base concoction.

Heat over a double boiler at a slow simmering boil for 2-3 hours. Cool, strain and added finasteride./dutasteride, phenytoin, plus a couple of other chemicals I purchased from a chemical house a while back. Can't mention those because they violate a patent.

I find that oils mixed with other penetration enhancers and finasteride./dutasteride and phenytoin are best for my scalp. They aren't cosmetically acceptable though!! :cry:

 

[IBM]

I'm planning to use finasteride for 4-5 years and then switch to dutasteride. I hope to maintain it for at least 15 years.

 

[haunted-ballroom]

I'm planning to use finasteride for 4-5 years and then switch to dutasteride. I hope to maintain it for at least 15 years.

Im hopeing to get as many years as possible with finasteride. But if I feel I need to, ill switch to dutasteride. Does anyone think its possible though that finasteride could work for 15 years+?

 

[SnowRider22]

finasteride has worked for many for 10 years plus. I really believe something better will be on the market within 10 years.

 

[bubka]

the amount of people unaware of the potential long term side effects of finasteride/dutasteride and the promotion of these drugs on the board to individuals who are not fully developed is astounding. Not everyone is willing to risk their penises or health for a head of hair that will last another five years tops. I am trying to raise awareness into other areas of treatment and if anyone has a problem with it I will stop.

and who is to say that your concoction of crap does not have detrimental longterm side effects... please think before you spew crap