minoxidil 5% 3x is equal to Xandrox 15% 1x?

[LostAnagenCycle]

Do you acknowledge and accept that what I alluded to much earlier in this thread IS correct (applying 2 1/2 mL of 2% Rogaine is the same as applying 1 mL of 5% Rogaine, because they both turn into the same thing on the scalp)?

No, the claim is specious at best YET patently false.

Oral ingestion of three doses (3) of 50mg tablets of minoxdil will give you 150mg of minoxidil. The same cannot be said when dealing with minoxidil in solution form. It is all about understanding pharmacological concentrations (i.e., making a liquid form of a drug stronger by removing water from it).

Check out this website that I found in a quick Google search and plug in the numbers:

http://www.monroecc.edu/depts/PSTC/backup/paradcal.htm

2.5 mL of Minoxidil 2% DOES NOT become Minoxidil 5% on the scalp!

 

[Bryan]

Bryan,

I had a good laugh reading the above cited comment.

Notwithstanding the fact that sunray73 may be seeing results with his regimen, this is an interesting statement of pure speculation coming from the person on this Forum that is known for demanding data and controlled studies from others to back their claims.

I always try to choose my words carefully. I did in fact use the word "may" TWICE, to indicate that I knew that what I was saying was speculative.

Are you implying that McNeil-PPC, Inc., is being less than truthful by making the following statement in their directions for use: "4. sing more, or more often, will not improve results"?

I don't know about McNeil-PPC, Inc., but I know that UpJohn (the original makers of Rogaine, both the 2% and 5% versions) said the same thing about 2% Rogaine, and I strongly suspect that they KNEW they were lying. At least two different studies have come out showing that 5% Rogaine is more effective than 2% Rogaine, and there's no way that Upjohn couldn't have known about that a long time ago (remember that applying a larger quantity of 2% Rogaine is equivalent to applying a smaller amount of 5% Rogaine). That bullshit about "using more, or more often, will not improve results" is probably just FDA garbage, something that the FDA made them insert into the product instructions and labeling. I think Upjohn knew it was bullshit.

 

[LostAnagenCycle]

Are you implying that McNeil-PPC, Inc., is being less than truthful by making the following statement in their directions for use: "4. sing more, or more often, will not improve results"?

I don't know about McNeil-PPC, Inc., but I know that UpJohn (the original makers of Rogaine, both the 2% and 5% versions) said the same thing about 2% Rogaine, and I strongly suspect that they KNEW they were lying. At least two different studies have come out showing that 5% Rogaine is more effective than 2% Rogaine, and there's no way that Upjohn couldn't have known about that a long time ago (remember that applying a larger quantity of 2% Rogaine is equivalent to applying a smaller amount of 5% Rogaine). That bullshit about "using more, or more often, will not improve results" is probably just FDA garbage, something that the FDA made them insert into the product instructions and labeling. I think Upjohn knew it was bullshit.

I agree it is probably just FDA garbage to cover their rear ends based on the tested dosages used in the clinical trials, but, at some point, the skin certainly becomes too saturated to allow further absorption.

 

[Bryan]

No, the claim is specious at best BUT patently false.

It's NOT patently false. It's the truth.

Oral ingestion of three doses (3) of 50mg tablets of minoxdil will give you 150mg of minoxidil. The same cannot be said when dealing with minoxidil in solution form.

I'm not talking about 5% and 15% minoxidil solutions. I very clearly stated that I was referring to 2% Rogaine and 5% Rogaine.

Check out this website that I found in a quick Google search and plug in the numbers:

http://www.monroecc.edu/depts/PSTC/backup/paradcal.htm

What does THAT have to do with anything?

2.5 mg of Minoxidil 2% DOES NOT become Minoxidil 5% on the scalp!

Yes it does. Really, it does. Even Upjohn scientists THEMSELVES admitted in a topical minoxidil study that when you apply it to your scalp, the volatile portions of the vehicle (the alcohol and the water) evaporate quickly, leaving behind a saturated solution of minoxidil in propylene glycol on your scalp. Do you see where I'm going with this? Need I say more?

 

[LostAnagenCycle]

No, the claim is specious at best BUT patently false.

It's NOT patently false. It's the truth.

Incorrect

Oral ingestion of three doses (3) of 50mg tablets of minoxdil will give you 150mg of minoxidil. The same cannot be said when dealing with minoxidil in solution form.

I'm not talking about 5% and 15% minoxidil solutions. I very clearly stated that I was referring to 2% Rogaine and 5% Rogaine.

The same principle applies whether we are comparing 2% to 5% OR 5% to 15%.

Check out this website that I found in a quick Google search and plug in the numbers:

http://www.monroecc.edu/depts/PSTC/backup/paradcal.htm

What does THAT have to do with anything?

It explains pharmacological concentrations.

2.5 mL of Minoxidil 2% DOES NOT become Minoxidil 5% on the scalp!

Yes it does. Really, it does. Even Upjohn scientists THEMSELVES admitted in a topical minoxidil study that when you apply it to your scalp, the volatile portions of the vehicle (the alcohol and the water) evaporate quickly, leaving behind a saturated solution of minoxidil in propylene glycol on your scalp. Do you see where I'm going with this? Need I say more?

Provide the link to the study?

 

[Bryan]

I'm not talking about 5% and 15% minoxidil solutions. I very clearly stated that I was referring to 2% Rogaine and 5% Rogaine.

The same principle applies whether we are comparing 2% to 5% OR 5% to 15%.

The principle is NOT the same, because of this critical fact:

The maximum solubility of minoxidil in propylene glycol is well below the 15% level that Dr. Lee claims for his 15% Xandrox product (the Merck Index says that it's only about 7.5%). Therefore, no matter HOW MUCH alcohol and water evaporates from the vehicle, the concentration of minoxidil will NEVER get all the way up to 15%, like it is in 15% Xandrox. Therefore, it's a moot point. What I said ONLY applies to the 2% and 5% versions of plain old Rogaine.

Yes it does. Really, it does. Even Upjohn scientists THEMSELVES admitted in a topical minoxidil study that when you apply it to your scalp, the volatile portions of the vehicle (the alcohol and the water) evaporate quickly, leaving behind a saturated solution of minoxidil in propylene glycol on your scalp. Do you see where I'm going with this? Need I say more?

Provide the link to the study?

I don't have a link to the study, just a paper copy of it from the medical library. It's getting a little too late for me now, but I promise that tomorrow I'll dig it out of my Study Stack and give you the full citation, and quote the relevant material from it that verifies what I've been saying.

 

[LostAnagenCycle]

The same principle applies whether we are comparing 2% to 5% OR 5% to 15%.

The principle is NOT the same, because of this critical fact:

The maximum solubility of minoxidil in propylene glycol is well below the 15% level that Dr. Lee claims for his 15% Xandrox product (the Merck Index says that it's only about 7.5%). Therefore, no matter HOW MUCH alcohol and water evaporates from the vehicle, the concentration of minoxidil will NEVER get all the way up to 15%, like it is in 15% Xandrox. Therefore, it's a moot point. What I said ONLY applies to the 2% and 5% versions of plain old Rogaine.

I agree that the comparison of 5% to 15% minoxidil in solution form is not possible in practice because of the stability issues; however, I will be waiting for the proof that 2.5 mL of Minoxidil 2% becomes Minoxidil 5% on the scalp.

 

[Bryan]

I will be waiting for the proof that 2.5 mL of Minoxidil 2% becomes Minoxidil 5% on the scalp.

Just for the record, I never said that 2.5 mL of 2% minoxidil becomes 5% minoxidil on the scalp. I said that both 2% and 5% Rogaine solutions turn into saturated solutions of minoxidil in propylene glycol, which would be concentrations around the 7.5% to 10% level. But I'll get to that tomorrow....I'm about to fall asleep over the keyboard!

 

[techprof]

I'm not talking about 5% and 15% minoxidil solutions. I very clearly stated that I was referring to 2% Rogaine and 5% Rogaine.

The same principle applies whether we are comparing 2% to 5% OR 5% to 15%.

The principle is NOT the same, because of this critical fact:

The maximum solubility of minoxidil in propylene glycol is well below the 15% level that Dr. Lee claims for his 15% Xandrox product (the Merck Index says that it's only about 7.5%). Therefore, no matter HOW MUCH alcohol and water evaporates from the vehicle, the concentration of minoxidil will NEVER get all the way up to 15%, like it is in 15% Xandrox. Therefore, it's a moot point. What I said ONLY applies to the 2% and 5% versions of plain old Rogaine.

Yes it does. Really, it does. Even Upjohn scientists THEMSELVES admitted in a topical minoxidil study that when you apply it to your scalp, the volatile portions of the vehicle (the alcohol and the water) evaporate quickly, leaving behind a saturated solution of minoxidil in propylene glycol on your scalp. Do you see where I'm going with this? Need I say more?

Provide the link to the study?

I don't have a link to the study, just a paper copy of it from the medical library. It's getting a little too late for me now, but I promise that tomorrow I'll dig it out of my Study Stack and give you the full citation, and quote the relevant material from it that verifies what I've been saying.

Bryan, xandrox 15 has 70-80% alcohol, glycerine and rest water. It does not contain propylen glycol.

 

[sunray73]

Apparently, you ignored the science in my response. Minoxidil 15% is composed of 150mg minoxidil/mL; whereas, Minoxidil 5% is composed of 50mg minoxidil/mL.

Applying 3 mL of Minoxidil 5% DOES NOT equal 150mg minoxidil/mL or Minoxidil 15%.

Such an angry little bald man... So let me guess... You're on Dr Lee's payroll or something? I did not ignore the science in your response as I was merely stating what i thought was obviously stated in earlier posts, that it may be as effective as 15% hence --> "my experiment" :whistle:

If it weren't for Bryan's comment "And who knows? Might even be BETTER!" I would have never tried the experiment that I did. So sorry if I offend or don't take your posts seriously as I have tried many 15% minoxidil products(Including Dr Lee's) which seemed to show promise the first few weeks (had some new black hairs growing in the temples) which then slowly disappeared.

called out a veteran poster.... OMG!!!! lol... look at who we elected as our last president(twice!). My point? an idiot is an idiot... and please do let us know when your account is "fixed" so we may all know the moron behind the moron.

 

[Bryan]

Bryan, xandrox 15 has 70-80% alcohol, glycerine and rest water.

Hey, don't forget the azelaic acid. I consider that just to be another part of the vehicle!

It does not contain propylen glycol.

Right.

 

[Bryan]

Here's the material that I promised earlier. It's from the following study:

"Relationship between Contact Time of Applied Dose and Percutaneous Absorption of Minoxidil from a Topical Solution", James J. Ferry, Judy H. Shepard, and Gregory J. Szpunar, Journal of Pharmaceutical Sciences Vol. 79, No. 6, June 1990.

Received April 19, 1989, from the Clinical Pharmacokinetics Unit, The Upjohn Company, Kalamazoo, MI 49001.

Here's the insightful paragraph near the end in the DISCUSSION section which tells the story about what happens when you apply Rogaine to your scalp:

"The topical solution used in this study consists of a mixture of ethanol:waterropylene glycol in relative proportion (v/v) of 60:20:20. Ethanol and water are extremely volatile relative to propylene glycol and application of this vehicle to the scalp likely results quickly in a solution of minoxidil in propylene glycol approximately equivalent to the solubility maximum of 100 mg/mL. Percutaneous absorption of minoxidil after topical administration presumably occurs by diffusion out of this saturated propylene glycol solution."

So in other words, when you apply 5% Rogaine to your scalp, the alcohol and water quickly evaporate, leaving behind a saturated solution of minoxidil in propylene glycol. And when you apply 2% Rogaine, the same thing happens: the alcohol and water quickly evaporate, leaving behind a saturated solution of minoxidil in propylene glycol. The only difference between those two is just the QUANTITY of the saturated propylene glycol that they leave behind. But applying 2.5 mL of 2% would produce the same quantity of that saturated propylene glycol as applying 1 mL of 5%. So in that important sense, 2% and 5% versions of Rogaine are equivalent: they BOTH turn into the same thing (albeit different quantities) when you apply them to your scalp.

 

[Jm0311]

So again. Which is the better to use? 5% or 15%?

 

[Bryan]

Nobody knows for sure. All we have are anecdotes.

 

[LostAnagenCycle]

Apparently, you ignored the science in my response. Minoxidil 15% is composed of 150mg minoxidil/mL; whereas, Minoxidil 5% is composed of 50mg minoxidil/mL.

Applying 3 mL of Minoxidil 5% DOES NOT equal 150mg minoxidil/mL or Minoxidil 15%.

Such an angry little bald man... So let me guess... You're on Dr Lee's payroll or something? I did not ignore the science in your response as I was merely stating what i thought was obviously stated in earlier posts, that it may be as effective as 15% hence --> "my experiment" :whistle:

If it weren't for Bryan's comment "And who knows? Might even be BETTER!" I would have never tried the experiment that I did. So sorry if I offend or don't take your posts seriously as I have tried many 15% minoxidil products(Including Dr Lee's) which seemed to show promise the first few weeks (had some new black hairs growing in the temples) which then slowly disappeared.

called out a veteran poster.... OMG!!!! lol... look at who we elected as our last president(twice!). My point? an idiot is an idiot... and please do let us know when your account is "fixed" so we may all know the moron behind the moron.

You are such a douchebag that I probably should not even bother responding, BUT I am going to for entertainment purposes.

How in the hell am I the angry one?

I offered to correct your misunderstanding, and I was attacked and told to "jackit".

Best of luck!

 

[LostAnagenCycle]

Here's the material that I promised earlier. It's from the following study:

"Relationship between Contact Time of Applied Dose and Percutaneous Absorption of Minoxidil from a Topical Solution", James J. Ferry, Judy H. Shepard, and Gregory J. Szpunar, Journal of Pharmaceutical Sciences Vol. 79, No. 6, June 1990.

Received April 19, 1989, from the Clinical Pharmacokinetics Unit, The Upjohn Company, Kalamazoo, MI 49001.

Here's the insightful paragraph near the end in the DISCUSSION section which tells the story about what happens when you apply Rogaine to your scalp:

"The topical solution used in this study consists of a mixture of ethanol:waterropylene glycol in relative proportion (v/v) of 60:20:20. Ethanol and water are extremely volatile relative to propylene glycol and application of this vehicle to the scalp likely results quickly in a solution of minoxidil in propylene glycol approximately equivalent to the solubility maximum of 100 mg/mL. Percutaneous absorption of minoxidil after topical administration presumably occurs by diffusion out of this saturated propylene glycol solution."

So in other words, when you apply 5% Rogaine to your scalp, the alcohol and water quickly evaporate, leaving behind a saturated solution of minoxidil in propylene glycol. And when you apply 2% Rogaine, the same thing happens: the alcohol and water quickly evaporate, leaving behind a saturated solution of minoxidil in propylene glycol. The only difference between those two is just the QUANTITY of the saturated propylene glycol that they leave behind. But applying 2.5 mL of 2% would produce the same quantity of that saturated propylene glycol as applying 1 mL of 5%. So in that important sense, 2% and 5% versions of Rogaine are equivalent: they BOTH turn into the same thing (albeit different quantities) when you apply them to your scalp.

LMAO.

That solves nothing my friend!

Applying 2.5 times the required dosage of Minoxidil 2% DOES NOT turn it into Minoxidil 5% when you applied to your scalp.

2.5 mL of Minoxidil 2% leaves behind 2.5 times the recommended dosage of a saturated propylene glycol solution with a 2% concentrate of minoxidil.

Applying 2.5 times the necessary dosage of Minoxidil 2% DOES NOT increase or transform the concentration of minoxidil in the saturated propylene glycol solution to become a Minoxidil 5% concentrate in the scalp.

 

[LostAnagenCycle]

I will be waiting for the proof that 2.5 mL of Minoxidil 2% becomes Minoxidil 5% on the scalp.

Just for the record, I never said that 2.5 mL of 2% minoxidil becomes 5% minoxidil on the scalp. I said that both 2% and 5% Rogaine solutions turn into saturated solutions of minoxidil in propylene glycol, which would be concentrations around the 7.5% to 10% level. But I'll get to that tomorrow....I'm about to fall asleep over the keyboard!

You never said that 2.5 mL of Minoxidil 2% becomes Minoxidil 5% on the scalp?

Really?

Do you acknowledge and accept that what I alluded to much earlier in this thread IS correct (applying 2 1/2 mL of 2% Rogaine is the same as applying 1 mL of 5% Rogaine, because they both turn into the same thing on the scalp)?

 

[Bryan]

LMAO.

That solves nothing my friend!

Applying 2.5 times the required dosage of Minoxidil 2% DOES NOT turn it into Minoxidil 5% when you applied to your scalp.

I didn't say that it does. I said that they both turn into the same thing (saturated solutions of minoxidil in propylene glycol).

2.5 mL of Minoxidil 2% leaves behind 2.5 times the recommended dosage of a saturated propylene glycol solution with a 2% concentrate of minoxidil.

WRONG. A saturated solution of propylene glycol contains around 7.5% to 10% minoxidil. Re-read my post CAREFULLY.

Applying 2.5 times the necessary dosage of Minoxidil 2% DOES NOT increase or transform the concentration of minoxidil in the saturated propylene glycol solution to become a Minoxidil 5% concentrate in the scalp.

Did you even bother to READ my post? Read it again, CAREFULLY this time.

 

[Bryan]

I will be waiting for the proof that 2.5 mL of Minoxidil 2% becomes Minoxidil 5% on the scalp.

Just for the record, I never said that 2.5 mL of 2% minoxidil becomes 5% minoxidil on the scalp. I said that both 2% and 5% Rogaine solutions turn into saturated solutions of minoxidil in propylene glycol, which would be concentrations around the 7.5% to 10% level. But I'll get to that tomorrow....I'm about to fall asleep over the keyboard!

You never said that 2.5 mL of Minoxidil 2% becomes Minoxidil 5% on the scalp?

Really?

Yes, really. I never said that.

 

[LostAnagenCycle]

Just for the record, I never said that 2.5 mL of 2% minoxidil becomes 5% minoxidil on the scalp. I said that both 2% and 5% Rogaine solutions turn into saturated solutions of minoxidil in propylene glycol, which would be concentrations around the 7.5% to 10% level. But I'll get to that tomorrow....I'm about to fall asleep over the keyboard!

You never said that 2.5 mL of Minoxidil 2% becomes Minoxidil 5% on the scalp?

Really?

Yes, really. I never said that.

This ABSURD!

Do you acknowledge and accept that what I alluded to much earlier in this thread IS correct (applying 2 1/2 mL of 2% Rogaine is the same as applying 1 mL of 5% Rogaine, because they both turn into the same thing on the scalp)?

How can anyone believe anything else you are now saying?