Reducing Estrogen = Increased Test = Hairloss

[Jake_89]

OK

A little Worried would be great for an explanation.

I am taking .25mg Propecia each day AND to counter the side effect of Gyno (I got symptoms within 2 weeks) I have begun using low doses of Aromasin roughly 12mg Aro EOD.

Aromasin decreases Estrogen by 60~% @ 25mg ED and INCREASES Test by roughly 60% also.

Increase in Test = Increase in DHT correct?

So taking Propecia and Aro to combat Gyno is really... counter productive?

Can someone simply tell me if Propecia can block the DHT from the increased Test in the body while still maintaing high Test so basically there is an increase in Test due to Aro but Propecia has pretty much killed most of the DHT so I shouldn't be worried?

Thanks

 

[follicle84]

Hard to say, everyones bodies react differently to different things. Alls i can say is keep trying it and see, you will know soon enough. In theory your right, it should work so that your left with more testosterone, with it not being able to convert into any other hormones. I am currently trying green tea extract, which has anti estrogenic properties and so far it has stunted the side affects i was getting off finasteride. I too got slight gyno which is why i reduced the dose to half yours. Even then i got slight side affects until i added green tea into the mix. Maybe you can try this if all else fails. Good luck

 

[Jake_89]

Cheers bro

So far this Aromasin AI is working a treat I can't feel any Gyno symptoms anymore and its been nearly a week and abit since I got onto anti E

 

[jr27]

seems almost like a steroid

 

[Jake_89]

seems almost like a steroid

Those percentages are @ full dose of 25mg...

So Can I safely say that if I don't feel anything around my nipples that it's doing its job at stopping gyno cos it took 24 hours after injesting first micro dose of aromasin for the symptoms to vanish..

 

[brentx]

I'm not 100% sure on any of this, but..

The problem with taking aromasin is that your going to directly effect testosterone conversion to estrogen, which I think may cause your body even more confusion about what hormones it should produce more or less of. Some people on the forum might suggest DIM as a better alternative, since it deals with estrogen AFTER it's been produced..

Can anyone back me up here?

Or shut me down..

 

[brentx]

But I like your way of thinking. I've seen some discussions about DHT being less in men with naturally higher T. I'm pretty sure there was even a study to back this up (not sure where though).

Surely if you can get T to quite high levels (1000 ng/dl or something), this would be compensating somewhat for the low DHT cause by 5AR inhibition. Sides might be significantly less, and maybe my jizz would be thick again! Then you could use Nizoral often to prevent the T from attacking hair..

Theory..

 

[Jake_89]

But I like your way of thinking. I've seen some discussions about DHT being less in men with naturally higher T. I'm pretty sure there was even a study to back this up (not sure where though).

Surely if you can get T to quite high levels (1000 ng/dl or something), this would be compensating somewhat for the low DHT cause by 5AR inhibition. Sides might be significantly less, and maybe my jizz would be thick again! Then you could use Nizoral often to prevent the T from attacking hair..

Theory..

Interesting

But yeah Since I've been on propecia my jizz and boners have been unchanged at all the only side i encountered was the slight gyno symptoms which Aro as gotten rid of...

I will get my blood work done in 3 weeks and get the Doctor to focus on DHT, e1 e2 etc...

cheers

 

[medmax84]

I'm not 100% sure on any of this, but..

The problem with taking aromasin is that your going to directly effect testosterone conversion to estrogen, which I think may cause your body even more confusion about what hormones it should produce more or less of. Some people on the forum might suggest DIM as a better alternative, since it deals with estrogen AFTER it's been produced..

Can anyone back me up here?

Or shut me down..

Incorrect. Feedback mechanisms respond to circulating estrogen and testosterone. The conversion is largely unimportant, because it is the downstream product that plays a part in feedback mechanisms to the hypothalamus.

Ultimately it is total estrogen and testosterone that are responded-to by the endocrine system. When DHT becomes low, the body responds by creating more 5AR and testosterone (upstream). When T becomes low, the body responds by making more GnRH which stimulates the secretion of more LH (and FSH). In other words, it makes no difference if you block estrogen at the aromatase reaction or by binding and inactivating free estrogen in serum unless, of course, there is an effect on the synthesis of the aromatase molecule itself that is unknown.

 

[Jake_89]

I'm not 100% sure on any of this, but..

The problem with taking aromasin is that your going to directly effect testosterone conversion to estrogen, which I think may cause your body even more confusion about what hormones it should produce more or less of. Some people on the forum might suggest DIM as a better alternative, since it deals with estrogen AFTER it's been produced..

Can anyone back me up here?

Or shut me down..

Incorrect. Feedback mechanisms respond to circulating estrogen and testosterone. The conversion is largely unimportant, because it is the downstream product that plays a part in feedback mechanisms to the hypothalamus.

Ultimately it is total estrogen and testosterone that are responded-to by the endocrine system. When DHT becomes low, the body responds by creating more 5AR and testosterone (upstream). When T becomes low, the body responds by making more GnRH which stimulates the secretion of more LH (and FSH). In other words, it makes no difference if you block estrogen at the aromatase reaction or by binding and inactivating free estrogen in serum unless, of course, there is an effect on the synthesis of the aromatase molecule itself that is unknown.

Sorry man I suck at understanding medical talk can you please tell me what this means for someone like me whos taking .25mg finasteride ED and .12mg Aromasin EOD what am I doing to my hormones am I making finasteride useless or am I increasing DHT while trying to lower Estrogen?

 

[$tackz]

I used to take Toremifene while on Propecia... It has no effect on free circulating estrogen but instead it binds to the estrogen RECEPTORS so it can't exert it's cellular effect upon the body. That's really all you'd need to do anyway, isn't it?

 

[Jake_89]

I used to take Toremifene while on Propecia... It has no effect on free circulating estrogen but instead it binds to the estrogen RECEPTORS so it can't exert it's cellular effect upon the body. That's really all you'd need to do anyway, isn't it?

Thats similar how Aromasin works just binds doesn't f*** with overall circulating estrogen needed for bones and joints BUT its a steroidial (sp) which raises T

My main worry is because Aromasin can increase T doesn't an increase in T = an Increase in DHT so basically I am digging a hole for myself so to speak??

 

[Bryan]

[quote="$tackz":35xn1pz7]I used to take Toremifene while on Propecia... It has no effect on free circulating estrogen but instead it binds to the estrogen RECEPTORS so it can't exert it's cellular effect upon the body. That's really all you'd need to do anyway, isn't it?

Thats similar how Aromasin works just binds doesn't f*ck with overall circulating estrogen needed for bones and joints BUT its a steroidial (sp) which raises T[/quote:35xn1pz7]

Aromasin is definitely an aromatase inhibitor, and blocks the production of estrogen. It doesn't bind to estrogen receptors.

My main worry is because Aromasin can increase T doesn't an increase in T = an Increase in DHT so basically I am digging a hole for myself so to speak??

You don't have to worry about that, if you're also using Propecia.

 

[Jake_89]

Hmm Bryan isn't that BAD news for my Joints and bones if I am going to use Aromasin in combo with Propecia...

You think its safe to use Aromasin for the entire time while on Propecia EOD/E2D

OR

So if I am sensitive to Estrogen I am stuck on Aromasin for life (as long as on Propecia) there is no way for the body to balance out the E or something?

Bryan simply am I calling for trouble using Aromasin long term to combat Gyno

Thanks again for the input!

 

[$tackz]

Hmm Bryan isn't that BAD news for my Joints and bones if I am going to use Aromasin in combo with Propecia...

You think its safe to use Aromasin for the entire time while on Propecia EOD/E2D

OR

So if I am sensitive to Estrogen I am stuck on Aromasin for life (as long as on Propecia) there is no way for the body to balance out the E or something?

Bryan simply am I calling for trouble using Aromasin long term to combat Gyno

Thanks again for the input!

Why not just use a SERM instead of an AI?

 

[Jake_89]

[quote="Jake_89":7y5wmrs3]Hmm Bryan isn't that BAD news for my Joints and bones if I am going to use Aromasin in combo with Propecia...

You think its safe to use Aromasin for the entire time while on Propecia EOD/E2D

OR

So if I am sensitive to Estrogen I am stuck on Aromasin for life (as long as on Propecia) there is no way for the body to balance out the E or something?

Bryan simply am I calling for trouble using Aromasin long term to combat Gyno

Thanks again for the input!

Why not just use a SERM instead of an AI?[/quote:7y5wmrs3]


SERM can you please explain the benefits of using SERM in my situation are? because the doctor told me this is just a trial and he will be happy to change the precription to anything.

So if you recommend using something else... please let me know sorry for the arrogant post I got to go to work now so I can't research SERM before making a reply I appreciate your input regarding SERM.

Good for long term use?

Chers

 

[CMartel2]

The only way you can know for sure how this is affecting your body is to measure your blood levels and to see how your body responds clinically.

Know that tamoxifen not only blocks the estrogen receptor but also increases the body's sensitivity to GnRH and LH, thus increasing testosterone levels. Tamoxifen also acts as an estrogen in the liver and can reduce LDL (bad cholesterol) and increase HDL (good cholesterol) concentrations in the body. It's not like it's necessarily a great thing on the liver, though, as it is associated with hepatotoxicity fatty liver.

Long-term tamoxifen use can result in alterations to vision via phosphonic acid, so be on the lookout for that and decrease doses immediately if you start having problems. The incidence of this is far less than with clomid, but be aware that this is a possiblity.

Keep an eye out on for your cholesterol levels if you're using Arimidex, as depressing estrogen too far can lead to bad lipid profiles. You might also want to consider monitoring homocysteine and lipoprotein A levels, as these tend to be elevated with Aromotase Inhibitor therapy and can cause heart/cardiovascular damage over time.

I think ideally you should be aiming to push estrogen in the lower end of normal range, particularly estradiol. Given the side-effects of these meds, I think a conservative approach is more than called for.

 

[Jake_89]

haven't really been taking Aromasin that much at all recently and no side effects from increase in E

hmm will keep an eye on it..

 

[follicle84]

Jake how goes your progress? Are you getting any regrowth at all? I remember you had a shedding problem earlier, did this stop?

 

[Jake_89]

Jake how goes your progress? Are you getting any regrowth at all? I remember you had a shedding problem earlier, did this stop?

Well blocking estrogen and increasing Test IS NOT GOING TO RUIN YOUR HAIR! I am living proof.

Shedding completely stopped now wasn't really a shed.

I've had to stop Propecia for the time being (check the sides forum for why)