So many guys saying...

maddoc23

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Johnny,

Proscar and propecia have both been studied in a double-blind randomized controlled fashion for many years and the incidence of side effects were documented and reviewed by the FDA. No offense, but this kind of data trumps whatever you believe. Just remember double-blind randomized controlled trial.

D
 

seekinghair

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Well, outside these forums I happen to know just two finasteride users: a close friend and my brother in law. Both of them have admitted to me experiencing sexual sides while on the drug. If I include myself it makes 3 sufferers out of 3 users. Sorry guys but I don't buy the official 2 percent. Why then was that the results of the trials? I don´t know for sure. IMO it´s related to the fact that most of the times sides only come down to a decrease in libido and erection strenth for which you can think that are just the result of hormonal cycles, changes of mood...Again, just my opinion.
 

Aplunk1

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maddoc23 said:
Johnny,

Proscar and propecia have both been studied in a double-blind randomized controlled fashion for many years and the incidence of side effects were documented and reviewed by the FDA. No offense, but this kind of data trumps whatever you believe. Just remember double-blind randomized controlled trial.

D

Yup, it's 2% guys. 2%.
 

Axon

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michael barry said:
Ive been on propecia ten years. No sides.

I love when someone like this comes out of the woodwork and drops the f*****g hammer on threads like this.
 

Johnny24601

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re:

There is a long list of drugs that have ben approved by the FDA after double blinds and later these drugs were proven to be unsafe even deadly. I am well aware of the finasteride study, I just do not think it is an accurate representation. The FDA merely approves the data presented to them and this double blind was run by Merck and derms, who were the groups most likely to profit from the approval of finasteride. Does this mean that the study was inaccurate, absolutely not, only that there is potential bias as is the case with most double blinds. As I do not have the ability to run my own completely unbiased double blind, all my opinions are pure speculation. I accept that the results could be correct, but I just think they are not. Side effects are by far the biggest issue for those who stop the drug and for those who are deciding to go on the drug. Many finasteride users are concerned and I think this issue has not been properly addressed by the distibutor. Maybe if finasteride made Merck some $$ then they would look into it further, they just don't care and should not care because Merck is in the business of making money.
Whatever, the case, do not lump me into all these nut cases who come onto this website just to b**ch and moan and attack finasteride. I think the drug works with limited potential side effects that are reversible once the drug is discontinued.
My point, sighting the double blind as the only basis to believe the 2% is shortsighted and too trusting of the American gov't and big business. We should demand more.

Here are some articles that at least offers the reader a basis to question the results of the finasteride double blind:

"Here's information you're not supposed to know about the FDA. It was uncovered through a Freedom Of Information Act (FOIA) request that uncovered a 2002 Human and Health Services survey asking FDA scientists questions about the agency. Their answers reveal an astonishing lack of confidence at the Fraud and Drug Administration, not to mention the bullying of scientists by FDA bureaucrats to get drugs approved even though they were dangerous. Let's take a closer look at the results of this survey.

The survey involved 846 FDA scientists with a near-50% participation rate. Of those who responded, 66% said they lacked confidence in the agency's ability to "adequately monitor the safety of prescription drugs once they are on the market." That's two-thirds of the scientists. This is interesting because Dr. David Graham, who is the most outspoken FDA scientist, had been singled out by the FDA as being a loose cannon, a sort of rogue scientist whose views were not widely accepted. But, as we see from the study, the vast majority of scientists within the agency heartily agree with Dr. David Graham.

Similarly, only 12% of the scientists surveyed were completely confident that the FDA labeling decisions adequately address safety concerns. That's only one out of 10 scientists. Similarly, only 13% of the scientists were confident that the FDA's final decisions adequately assess the safety of a drug. Why might this be the case? Nearly 60% of the scientists said they don't believe the FDA has enough time to conduct in depth science-based reviews of new drugs, and 48% said the FDA does not do enough to monitor and improve its drug assessment process. So what's really going on behind closed doors, it seems, is that FDA bureaucrats are rubber-stamping the approvals of dangerous drugs, silencing their own scientists and then failing to adequately monitor those drugs once they're released to the market. And this isn't something that outside critics are saying, it's something that even the FDA's own scientists are saying! But the picture gets even worse.
Related book:
Dispensing with the Truth : The Victims, the Drug Companies, and the Dramatic Story Behind the Battle over Fen-Phen
Mary Linnen, 29, was determined to lose 25 pounds before her wedding. In May 1996, her doctor prescribed a combination of drugs known as Fen-Phen. When Linnen complained of dizziness and shortness of breath... continues...
(Concept: the FDA)
Nearly 1 in 5 scientists, 18%, said that they have "been pressured to approve or recommend approval" for drugs that they thought weren't proven safe. This means the FDA bureaucrats have been leaning on scientists to approve dangerous drugs. And that's why we are seeing scandals in the marketplace like COX-2 inhibitors, antidepressant drugs, statin drugs and all sorts of other drugs that are now known to cause dangerous -- even deadly -- side effects, and yet have been promoted and defended by the FDA for years. And when those drugs are found to be a chemical catastrophe, killing literally hundreds of thousands of American citizens, the FDA just holds a rigged hearing where so-called "neutral" panel members (who actually have strong financial ties to drug companies) quickly vote the dangerous drugs back onto the marketplace. It's all a charade.

What all this shows is that the FDA has gone out of its way to protect the financial interests of drug companies. It has gone out of its way to silence its own scientists who are critical of the agency's drug safety review process. It has gone out of its way to bury evidence proving that these drugs are dangerous and yet at the same time discredit nutritional supplements, herbal medicine, vitamins and other natural strategies for preventing chronic disease and boosting health. In fact, the whole environment at the Fraud and Drug Administration is that of oppression... and suppression of scientific evidence. 21% of the scientists surveyed felt that the work environment at the FDA offered little or no room for dissent. Half of those surveyed said that scientific dissent was allowed only "to some extent." And a whopping 83% of the scientists surveyed felt the agency does not have adequate procedures in place to address scientific disagreements to a great extent.
Related book:
Excitotoxins: The Taste That Kills
They hide it in the foods you eat. It is now in over 50,000 products. They used to be required to put 'Diet' or 'Sugar-Free' on the label; but now if it is used in conjunction with another sweetener, that... continues...
(Concept: the FDA)

Well, of course they don't! Because when the agency works to censor scientists, shut them up and discredit them when they go public, that is certainly not an environment that's conducive to scientists telling the truth about dangerous drugs. If you worked at the FDA, would you? How long would you zip your lips just to keep your job? (Apparently, Dr. David Graham got tired of the game and decided to blow the whistle.)

What's the upshot of this survey finding? It's yet more evidence backing up my long-standing condemnations of the FDA as a mob-like drug racket agency that distorts the truth, lies to the public, defends dangerous prescription drugs, works to promote the financial interests of pharmaceutical companies and essentially ends up killing hundreds of thousands of Americans each year because of its unwillingness to perform its regulatory mission. This survey also reveals that it is not entirely accurate to speak of the FDA as one single-minded organization. In fact, there is a great rift at the FDA -- it is the scientists versus the FDA bureaucrats. The highly paid bureaucrats who have ties to the pharmaceutical industry and who have the political power to override the voices of the scientists are currently in charge. That's why when Dr. David Graham testified before the Senate and finally went public with the truth about the dangers of these prescription drugs, he was congratulated by his peers.

Meanwhile, other bureaucrats at the FDA threatened to discredit him; they even contacted a whistleblower group that was offering protection for Dr. David Graham and sought to discredit his reputation with that group. Now they're threatening to transfer Dr. Graham to another job role so that he can no longer conduct his work on drug safety.

Are these the actions of an organization that's protecting the public health? Absolutely not! Only a truly insane person could look at this situation and say the FDA is doing its job. More accurately, the FDA is behaving like a criminal organization, and that's why I've called for a criminal investigation of the top decision makers at this agency. Through their negligence and deceit they have cost the lives of countless Americans. They have plotted to promote dangerous drugs while discrediting disease prevention alternatives such as nutritional supplements. They have attempted to destroy alternative health doctors and pioneering researchers who are finding genuine cures and treatments for chronic diseases.
Related article
FDA accused of suppressing drug safety information (commentary)
(Concept: the FDA)
This is a 1920s style Chicago mob mentality, and it's the agency that's running our drug safety program here in the United States. There have been people calling for change for decades: people like Dr. Sidney Wolfe of Public Citizen, Dr. Julian Whitaker, and now even the FDA's own scientists are going public with their information. Yet most of the politicians and bureaucrats running our country still don't have the courage to stand up and tell the truth, because that would mean losing the next election as drug company money disappears from their reelection campaign funds. Drug companies have a financial stranglehold on the political process in this country, and they know it.

Even the press is biting its tongue on telling the truth about the FDA. Why aren't mainstream journalists willing to use accurate words to describe the criminality of this behavior? We don't have to be politically correct in our word choice about the FDA when there are peoples' lives at stake. These are criminal behaviors and the people responsible for these behaviors deserve to be prosecuted as criminals just like any other group that causes the death of hundreds of thousands of people. If they were terrorists, we'd be bombing them into oblivion. But since it's the FDA, we somehow let it slide. In fact, FDA-approved drugs have killed hundreds of times as many Americans as all terrorist acts combined. Consider that sobering statistic for a moment... If you thought Saddam Hussein was dangerous, just take a glance at the Death By Medicine research report showing 750,000+ Americans killed annually by conventional medicine and FDA-approved drugs.

It is clearly time to reform the FDA. We should fire the bureaucrats and put scientists like Dr. David Graham in charge. These are people who are honest, courageous, willing to tell the truth and well-schooled in studying drug safety. Now they may not agree with everything I'm saying about the dangers of prescription drugs -- many of these scientists would say there are some drugs that are perfectly safe. But that's okay. We don't have to agree on everything, but we do have to stop the current madness in the top ranks of the FDA. I'd be happy as a camper just to see the FDA return to its original job of protecting the public. We could easily save over 100 lives a day if the FDA were forced to do its job again.
Related article
American Medical Association calls for wholesale reforms of the FDA
(Concept: the FDA)
You can help make a difference. What kind of action can you take? You can write your Congressperson or Senator and let them know your feelings about the FDA. Let them know you're tired of being a guinea pig, you're tired of the deception and you want honesty restored to the Fraud and Drug Administration so that future generations can actually have safe foods and drugs rather than a collection of over-hyped products that quite literally kill people by the thousands.

Today we have a nation paying billions of dollars in health care and prescription drugs and getting absolutely nothing in return for it other than skyrocketing rates of every chronic disease you can name. That's why it's called a drug racket. It's the biggest con ever perpetrated on the American people, and the FDA is the mob boss running the racket. The U.S. government eventually brought down Al Capone, but can it achieve the same law enforcement victory at the FDA? Perhaps the Department of Justice will get more involved as the body count rises here in the United States.

Personally, I'm just curious to watch how long the American people will put up with this game. As an observer, I find all this a fascinating experiment in how easy it is for health authorities to program the people to believe practically anything, including: "these drugs that are killing you are actually good for you."

It's just like watching rats in a maze, and the FDA just moved the cheese again.

and these

http://www.larouchepub.com/other/2004/3 ... ofits.html

http://www.ibsgroup.org/other/lotronex_ ... 262002.htm
 

Johnny24601

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re:

You do not have to read the entire article, just the start in end. The point is that the FDA is not a beacon of truth and makes mistakes. This issue is so important because so many men come to this site and are scared away from finasteride, which lets face it is by far the best option to fight male pattern baldness, because of side effects. I pity these men because they will end up being bald and feel shame because many in our society will judge them as "ugly". Since I am a beliver that the 2% number is way off, I also pity those who are experiencing bad sides, stay on the drug because the 2% number makes them feel like it the sides can't be true and then they end up with gyno, stop using finasteride and go bald.
Strictly sighting the Merck FDA approved double blind does not go far enough. I always feel like I am wasting my time on this issue because if you have had sides you think it is more and if you have not had sides then you think it is 2%, it is simply bias on both ends and gets us no where. Someday I hope we can have more closure on this issue, but it will most likely never happen.
I came to this site to find out my options to battle male pattern baldness, took finasteride and experinced side effects. I think there are far more people on this site with a story like mine and less (though they are certainly out there) who first came here to b**ch and moan because they were experiencing sides. Just my opinion.
 

Aplunk1

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Re: re:

Johnny24601 said:
You do not have to read the entire article, just the start in end. The point is that the FDA is not a beacon of truth and makes mistakes. This issue is so important because so many men come to this site and are scared away from finasteride, which lets face it is by far the best option to fight male pattern baldness, because of side effects. I pity these men because they will end up being bald and feel shame because many in our society will judge them as "ugly". Since I am a beliver that the 2% number is way off, I also pity those who are experiencing bad sides, stay on the drug because the 2% number makes them feel like it the sides can't be true and then they end up with gyno, stop using finasteride and go bald.
Strictly sighting the Merck FDA approved double blind does not go far enough. I always feel like I am wasting my time on this issue because if you have had sides you think it is more and if you have not had sides then you think it is 2%, it is simply bias on both ends and gets us no where. Someday I hope we can have more closure on this issue, but it will most likely never happen.
I came to this site to find out my options to battle male pattern baldness, took finasteride and experinced side effects. I think there are far more people on this site with a story like mine and less (though they are certainly out there) who first came here to b**** and moan because they were experiencing sides. Just my opinion.

No, sexual side effects with propecia occur in less than 2% of people.
End of story.

Axon said:
Nah, we get all the whiners.

What good does this do? Can we get some honest moderator opinion?
 

Axon

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Do good? Hah. Go back and read one of my 1,000 posts on this subject.

You don't get it. This place is circular. Nothing changes; it's the same tired old opinions with no proof of anything screaming about how they've lost 90% of their hair density, how finasteride killed their dog, and how they shed at least 500 hairs a day. It's just the user names saying it that changes - the hyperbole will forever remain the same.

You wanna say the FDA is corrupt? Prove it. Hard data. Correlative evidence means nothing. For every FDA approved drug that's later been found to have problems, I can point to ten that haven't. So what does looking at Phen-fen show?
 

EasyEd

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michael barry said:
Ive been on propecia ten years. No sides.

Michael Barry, what have your results been like after 10 yrs? What did you start out as? What do you look like now? It's great to hear from someone who's been doing it for so long...
 

seekinghair

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Just to clarify my views expressed in a previosu post.
I don't think the FSA is corrupt. I don't belive Merck somehow manipulated the trials. I dont't think scientist involved in the trials were bribed or just biassed. I don't think there's currently a better system for drug control than the one run by the FDA.
I just say that according to my personal experience and that of the people aronud me, which happen to be a small random sample of finasteride users, the 2 percent number is wrong. Too low to reflect the facts that I directly can test. It might be just coincidental that everyone on finasteride that I happen to know got sexual sides. Well, I doubt it. Could be the case though.
 

Johnny24601

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The FDA has approved drugs that not only caused side effects that were not adequately addressed in the approved double blind but actually ended up killing people, I previously provided two examples of this after only looking for about 10 minutes. No one can expect an agency to be perfect when dealing with prescription medication and the FDA goes much further to protect the public then most similar agencies in other countries, that does not mean we should not expect more.
My point, the FDA has screwed up in the past so how is so hard to believe that they may have missed the ball (maybe by just a few percentage points) with the actual side effect from this drug. Again, everything could be kosher with the finasteride double blind and the 2% sides, however, I think the percentage is inaccurate.
BTW, how's this for some proof:

"The survey involved 846 FDA scientists with a near-50% participation rate. Of those who responded, 66% said they lacked confidence in the agency's ability to "adequately monitor the safety of prescription drugs once they are on the market." That's two-thirds of the scientists. This is interesting because Dr. David Graham, who is the most outspoken FDA scientist, had been singled out by the FDA as being a loose cannon, a sort of rogue scientist whose views were not widely accepted. But, as we see from the study, the vast majority of scientists within the agency heartily agree with Dr. David Graham.

Similarly, only 12% of the scientists surveyed were completely confident that the FDA labeling decisions adequately address safety concerns. That's only one out of 10 scientists. Similarly, only 13% of the scientists were confident that the FDA's final decisions adequately assess the safety of a drug. Why might this be the case? Nearly 60% of the scientists said they don't believe the FDA has enough time to conduct in depth science-based reviews of new drugs, and 48% said the FDA does not do enough to monitor and improve its drug assessment process. So what's really going on behind closed doors, it seems, is that FDA bureaucrats are rubber-stamping the approvals of dangerous drugs, silencing their own scientists and then failing to adequately monitor those drugs once they're released to the market. And this isn't something that outside critics are saying, it's something that even the FDA's own scientists are saying! But the picture gets even worse. "

The circular arguments will continue and I am part of the problem. No doubt there are too may people freaking out on this site, but male pattern baldness is a very tough thing for many men, especially young men, to deal with so they freak out. It is important to filter out the crazy posts from your memeory, and I am sure many have filter my posts out. In the end this site does far more good then harm!
 

Deaner

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Whatever, it works for me, I have no sides, have at your pissing contest all day boys. All you can really do if you're serious about keeping your hair is try it and if it doesn't work for you, get off it, and quit your god damn bitching.
 

Johnny24601

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re:

I get sides and would recommend finasteride to absolutely anyone who is concerned about their hairloss.
 

Axon

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Yeah, and when you post sh*t like this, 20 newbies get scared as hell. That's why I come down so hard on these threads.

As for that article, well, I don't know what the source is, but from the writing it looks about as unbiased as Matt Drudge. And even if true, it still provides no hard data regarding Finasteride's side effect occurence.
 

Johnny24601

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re:

1.) If someone is so stupid to make a decision based on one person's comments, then they deserve what they get.
2.) I never said not to take finasteride, I actually recommended it even though I have had some sides. I will not avoid discussing an issue and looking for clarity because people are somehow to stupid to come to their own conclusions. In the end I am here for my hair.
3.) The data from that report was taken directly from federal files release from the Freedom of Information Act. Its a shame that you try to attack the source without discussing the fact that the FDA's own doctors are questioning their agency.
4.) There are no other finasteride double blind studies because no one has a few million lying around to conduct their own, you know that so it is childish to request such things.
5.) What is so friggin wrong with questioning a study produced by the same people who will profit from its sale and approved by an agency that has, well, made a few mistakes to say the least? Why am I demonized when we all see that side effects are a constant topic here and is the #1 issue with newbies. Oh well, I guess it is better to just ignore it, that will make it go away.
 

Axon

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1. Johnny, I'm sorry, that's just not fair. Newbies don't know anything, and if they see a lot of posts on this topic - and there are a lot - they may very well believe it. People will generally take word of mouth over studies they can barely comprehend.

This thread that you posted in is an excellent example. He specficially cites the constant whining made him afraid that the treatments wouldn't work.

http://www.gourmetstylewellness.com/discussions ... hp?t=25366

2. No one was accusing you specifically. You didn't even start this gem of a thread.

3. Federal files of what, exactly? Federal files means nothing. Until I know what source I'm looking at, I'm not going to believe a word it says. I can google any topic and find "sources" backing my stance. And again, it has nothing to do with Finasteride, specifically, even if it is true.

4. And until there are, I'll maintain this position. I don't see how it's childish, as its certainly within the realm of possibility for an independent agency to conduct such a study. No one has, because the Finasteride trials are considered comprehensive.

You think it's childish because it's the proof against your stance. To be honest, I gotta give you credit - most people with your level of passion simply ignore evidence to the contrary of their position.

5. This is a pointless attack on this site. We exist, and thrive, on data, not unfounded speculation. You think you've got concrete stuff, but really, you don't. If something comes out saying otherwise, I'll gladly concede the point. Until then, this argument is fruitless, as it was in other threads and will continue to be.

And for the record, no one's ignorning anything. I don't see how you can even think that. If I wanted to ignore it, I'd delete these threads as quickly as they spring up.

You're free to post this as much as you want - well, as long as gourmetstylewellness.com doesn't care. But I'm always going to be there with the FDA trial in hand.
 

Johnny24601

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re:

I disagree as there is very little precedent for independent case trials to challenge a double blind because they are so expensive and no one has anything to gain from them. It has not happened for drugs that were far more potent and important then finasteride, so it will certainly not be done. I guess "childish" was poor wording, maybe bullish would be better. Read drug makers economic reports and you will see that they recognize the risk that they deal with when trying to combine strong ethics with strong profits. It can be a very fine line. The drug industry is enormous beyond belief right now, but it is important to note that as a whole the FDA and drug makers are doing far more good then bad.
My approach to this issue is a little different then most who complain about sides. I am a looking for an unbiased dialogue and believe I am (at least somehat) open to new ideas.
FDA trials are just that trials. Approved FDA trials can and have missed both efficacy rates and side effect rates and degrees. It is this point that pushes me to have this sort of discussion with the people, who I believe know the most about the drug, the men who use it. No one even really knows what DHT's function is and there are other questions that the trial did not address, I don't want to post them because I am starting to fear that newbies will be pushed away from the #1 drug to fight hairloss. I have always tried to say in my posts that even though I have had some limited sides, I would recommend this drug to anyone concerned about hairloss. If anything, I would have thought that if a newbie read that someone who has had sides still recommends the drug, they would either be more inclined to use the drug because they would realize that even if they get sides they will be minimal or they would just think I am insane and ignore me. Either result would be fine with me. I have also pointed out how so many on this site are nutcases who overstate the sides or are experiencing a placebo effect.
Obviously the trial is our best scientific basis for examining the drug, however, where your point misses (in my opinion) is the fact that this is a discussion forum. That is one of the best parts about the internet (except p**rn of course), it provides a forum to further protect the consumer. Maybe if the internet was around 50 years ago then pregnant woman would not have smoked, drank, done drugs or consumed fish with potential mercury contamination. I think it is important to question this topic (and most every topic for that matter), it is just such a shame that the hysteria on this website, mostly caused by those who came here to just b**ch and moan about sides, causes everyone to go nuts. It is not this websites fault, it is theose wacky members who unfortunately have every right to be wacky.
Also, this issue is important to me and like I said I am first and foremost here to save my hair. Though I also do my best to try to help others, especially younger guys, feel better about their hairloss and battle it correctly because I saw how tough it was for me, read my post and you will see what I mean.
I still maintain my point that if someone is so stupid to believe what they read from people on this site as 100% fact then they deserve what they get (to a degree I suppose) and male pattern baldness is the least of their problems. That being said, I agree that some newbies may be put off by this thread and though I think it sucks that there cannot be a civilized discussion on this subject without tons of newbs being threatened, I don't want to see some poor young dude go bald because he was afraid of finasteride because of me.
From the start I took in the info on this site with a grain a salt, I appreciated everyone's opinions but l always looked elsewhere to confirm what I read. I still dismiss what some very learned people have to say on this subject. An example is when I read people applying the kitchen sink into their hair, I just don't agree with that and believe at some point people's regimens become a negative from both a physical and mental point of view.
If anyone survived this relatively useless post, I will express my belief gain. I believe that side effects are under reported from finasteride, BUT they are minimal, usually go away with-in a few days and always go away after stopping the drug. Therefore, there is no reason to not try finasteride if you are at all concerned about hairloss.
Axon check you private mess.
 
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