Stem cell research is a beaut!! Are you voting for Kerry?

[Yahowha]

Gardener, you're right about that. It was a bad statement on my part. Obviously we've done it before, but lying the country into war still isn't a good thing.

Odelay, I didn't say Bush was sitting around for 10 years waiting for the right moment to run for president so he could attack Iraq. It's just one of the many things Bush and the Neoconservatives wanted to do with their presidency. Don't believe me? Read any of the books put out by former administration members. Are they filp-flopping like Kerry because they used to say good things about the administration? (you're referring to the allegation that during his service in the Bush administration Richard Clarke said some good things about Bush) It really doesn't bother me that while he was working for Bush he said something good about Bush. He probably wanted to keep his job, he probably knew that what he had to say was going cause a stir and he wanted to keep it to himself until the right time. I don't understand why every statement someone made in the past has to agree with every statement they make in the present.

What I mean about the Kerry vote is that his vote wasn't going to sway the decision of Congress. Vote yes, the war happens. Vote no, the war still happens.

Congress was given the exact same information the president was basing his judgement to go to war on, they read that there was a threat in Iraq and they voted for the war there.

There's a difference between getting the same information as Bush, and having your information presented to you by Bush and his officials. Congress had the same information that Powell presented to the UN and the people of America and the world, information put together by the Bush administration. It's public information and is the same stuff that made anyone who supported the war support it in the first place. Bush is the president, he has direct access to all the nation's intelligence, and far more access than any member of congress. Kerry had to make a political gamble. He had to think "Is Bush right about all this? Is Saddam blatantly disregarding all UN sanctions because he has massive amounts of WMD. Is he going to attack America?" Kerry saw the same information as everyone else, and based on that information he had to vote yes. Well it turns out that Saddam didn't have that WMD, just like all the anti-war people and countries were saying from the beginning. I admit, Kerry was too stupid to realize that the anti-war people were right and the war would be a mistake. Hey he is sketchy but IMO he's a lesser evil. I'd vote Green if it wouldn't be a wasted vote and in reality a vote for Bush, since I would have voted for Kerry otherwise.

Hey, I'm sorry that my last post was badly put. I must have had too much of that dumbing Propecia before I wrote it.

I want you guys to know that if we disagree, I don't take it personally in any way and I hope you don't either. Free exchange of ideas and debate is what democracy is based on and it sucks when a good debate about stuff like this is taken personally. Also, this is obviously a hair loss talk site and not a political site, but political sites suck because it's all people from one party just agreeing with each other. Bringing this post back on topic about stem cells would make it even longer and it's wayy too long already.

Peace guys. :hairy:

 

[The Gardener]

It's cool, man.

 

[Odelay]

Gardener, you're right about that. It was a bad statement on my part. Obviously we've done it before, but lying the country into war still isn't a good thing.

Odelay, I didn't say Bush was sitting around for 10 years waiting for the right moment to run for president so he could attack Iraq. It's just one of the many things Bush and the Neoconservatives wanted to do with their presidency. Don't believe me? Read any of the books put out by former administration members. Are they filp-flopping like Kerry because they used to say good things about the administration? (you're referring to the allegation that during his service in the Bush administration Richard Clarke said some good things about Bush) It really doesn't bother me that while he was working for Bush he said something good about Bush. He probably wanted to keep his job, he probably knew that what he had to say was going cause a stir and he wanted to keep it to himself until the right time. I don't understand why every statement someone made in the past has to agree with every statement they make in the present.

What I mean about the Kerry vote is that his vote wasn't going to sway the decision of Congress. Vote yes, the war happens. Vote no, the war still happens.

Congress was given the exact same information the president was basing his judgement to go to war on, they read that there was a threat in Iraq and they voted for the war there.

There's a difference between getting the same information as Bush, and having your information presented to you by Bush and his officials. Congress had the same information that Powell presented to the UN and the people of America and the world, information put together by the Bush administration. It's public information and is the same stuff that made anyone who supported the war support it in the first place. Bush is the president, he has direct access to all the nation's intelligence, and far more access than any member of congress. Kerry had to make a political gamble. He had to think "Is Bush right about all this? Is Saddam blatantly disregarding all UN sanctions because he has massive amounts of WMD. Is he going to attack America?" Kerry saw the same information as everyone else, and based on that information he had to vote yes. Well it turns out that Saddam didn't have that WMD, just like all the anti-war people and countries were saying from the beginning. I admit, Kerry was too stupid to realize that the anti-war people were right and the war would be a mistake. Hey he is sketchy but IMO he's a lesser evil. I'd vote Green if it wouldn't be a wasted vote and in reality a vote for Bush, since I would have voted for Kerry otherwise.

Hey, I'm sorry that my last post was badly put. I must have had too much of that dumbing Propecia before I wrote it.

I want you guys to know that if we disagree, I don't take it personally in any way and I hope you don't either. Free exchange of ideas and debate is what democracy is based on and it sucks when a good debate about stuff like this is taken personally. Also, this is obviously a hair loss talk site and not a political site, but political sites suck because it's all people from one party just agreeing with each other. Bringing this post back on topic about stem cells would make it even longer and it's wayy too long already.

Peace guys. :hairy:

Once again you are basing all you information on opinions not facts, and unfortunately many, many, many, many of the opinions are not even rooted in fact. And again you don't seem to understand how our government works, it's not a monarchy it's a democracy. It's just unfortunate that people actually believe a lot of the BS that the media is flinging out, because let's be honest they are looking for dirt and they will embellish and have done so to get an interesting story.

Clarke was and is a bitter man who is upset about being fired. The man was use to being at the top of the heap and to be let go from his posistion would be an embarrassment to someone of his stature. It's no different than anyone of us would of reacted if we were fired from our job. I doubt there are many people that are removed from their job and will have nothing bad to say about their boss and the way things were run, they are just bitter. If he had truly had a problem with the way things were being run then he would of quit before he was fired, but we waited until he was fired to speak his mind in which he obviously would only have bad things to say, and millions of dollars to gain from his bitterness.

Another thing is that Colin Powell was the person that compiled the intelligence on Iraq from what was available, the conspiracy theory you are talking about with the war in Iraq is well beyond any believable possiblity. The intelligence that was gathered about Iraq was presented as a cause for war, duh. It was gathered from what was available and Kerry, as well as just about everyone else in Congress, agreed that the intelligence was reliable, because at the time it seemed reliable. To think that the entire presidency tampered with the intelligence for a cause for war is something that I am sure you heard from that new Liberal radio station. Lol, those guys are still whining about the 2000 elections and can only accept the way elections are run in this country when it is in their favor. :lol:

 

[Jaygee]

Has anyone heard of Project for the New American Century? Here is what I was told:

Cheney, Rumsfeld, and Wolfowitz (among others) were bigwigs during Bush Sr.'s administration. In 1992 they drew up a grand plan for a new, American-dominated global economy (more so than now), and how overunning Iraq, Iran, Syria, and [a fourth country I forget] were instrumental to implementing this plan. There was just one problem...they hadn't expected Bush to lose to Clinton. So the plan had to be put by the wayside for 8 years until the three bigwigs got back into power, under the nominal President Bush Jr. In case you're wondering, this isn't some sort of top-secret conspiracy---it's all right there in cold print for everyone to see. Just Google "Project for the New American Century" along with the names of the officials, and you'll get a bunch of stuff.

The fact that this rather appallingly imperialistic plan is so public, and that people still remain ignorant of its implications as to this administration's true motives, is scary. Not to mention that right after September 11th, when no planes were allowed in U.S. airspace, the government secretly flew Saudi government leaders and several members of the Bin Laden family out of the country---they'd been visiting Denver for a conference concerning an oil interest they're all part of. These Bin Ladens most likely have nothing to do with the actions of Osama, but the fact that this was kept secret EVEN FROM investigators at the time is incredibly suspicious. As I heard it, this came up briefly at the 9/11 hearings but somehow was glossed over. Weird.

 

[Jaygee]

Mind you, I'm not going so far as to say that this administration PLANNED 9/11---that's just such a overwhelming charge that I can't make it---but I'm saying that they seem to give us every reason possible to doubt their word and suspect their true motives. Nothing adds up.

 

[Guest]

All this political talk is depressing. America is going down the drain fast. I am baffled how out of all the articulate people in this country we have a dumbass like Bush as our president. All the democratic presidential canidates are horrible. Both parties are pretty much the same. As gardener said the government has pretty much become corporate americas b**ch. The reason this country was set apart from any other nation in history was because it was founded on Christian values. Our founding fathers said our consitition and government where only meant for a moral and religous people.

The New World Order is going to be the end of the US. It's triple times worse then communism. I don't understand how they can be so dumb and want to install a one world government. Bush is a major embarrassment. Whenever I see him talk I am almost ashamed to be American. He seems clueless and doesn't know what the hell to do. Iraq is a complete mess. We are spending 5 billion dallors a month and losing support daily. Not to mention that American soldiiers are dying almost everyday. This war is going to go on forever until they get tough and stop fighting a political correct war.

Our Justice system is a complete joke and our borders are open. The media are like damn vultures and are willing to destroy our country for a story. It seems like people don't have any moral values anymore. A day after I got the news my friend died in Iraq I started watching tv. All the channels where makeover shows. It seems people are to self absorbed and care more about getting a tummy tuck then who their congressmen are. It made my sick. I wan't to move to away from this country. I can't stand to watch it kill itself anymore.

 

[Odelay]

Jaygee you been listening to Al Frankin and Michael Moore wayyyyyyyyyyyyyyy to much dude. I'll let you in on a little secret don't listen to Liberal or Conservative Radio or TV, both those groups are only going to feed you a bunch of BS that will warp the truth into something that is beyond recognition. Like the saying goes talk is cheap, just because what you say might of actually happened, which is doubtful, does not mean this was some master plan they are going to follow through on. Just because you hear someone tell someone else that so and so said something does not mean it hasn't been warp out of context, which is the problem that most people get confused about. They get a warped version of the truth and spread it like wildfire and the story takes on a life of its own.

Another thing is that America is not going down the drain, at least no more than the rest of the world. America's problem is that we are trying to help other people obtain what we have, and others are seeing that as us trying to force our ways upon them. I would say America is the greatest country on the planet but I am sure some foreigners would love to take offence to that comment, so I won't. It's a lose, lose situation, we try and help people and we are trying to force our lifestlye on them, we don't help and we are greedy people that won't help others.

I will openly admit President Bush has made mistakes, but what leader has not? It comes with the territory, whenever you have to make very important decisions you are bound to make incorrect ones now and then, to error is human after all. What ticks me off are Americans that see things are not going to be quick and easy in Iraq and change their entire stance on the subject. It took many years after the USA decared it's independence to get up and on it's feet, why should Iraq be any different? The problem is that people were lead to believe Iraq would overnight turn into a democratic haven overnight, which is completely incorrect. Establishing a democratic country in Iraq is going to take years, and is something the people of Iraq will have to fight for or it will fail, there is no doubt about that. The founders of this country wanted freedom and were willing to fight and die for it, which is why this country has flourished. All the US is trying to do is give the people in Iraq the same opportunity we had over 200 years ago, wheather or not they seize the opportunity is up to them.

While it is sad your friend died in Iraq, life goes on. The entire world is not going to stop going on because a single soldier dies in the line of duty, no matter how tragic. People have the option in this country and many others to focus on what matters to them. If someone wants to see what's going on in the world or if they want to watch an infomercial about Bosley they have that choice to decide which is more important to them.

President Bush if far from an embarrassment, President Clinton holds that title with no one even coming close. You talk about Christian morals and such, but like George Carlin the comedian has said many times before "More people have died due to religous beliefs than in all the other battles combined." I believe America's morals are well intact as shown by the whole Janet Jackson thing at the Superbowl, if anything our morals are too strict. In most countries a titty being flashed would be no big deal, but in America it gets mass attention and causes a lot of Tv and Radio stations to enforce more censoring, which can been seen with the whole Howard Stern ordeal.

While America does have it's problems it is nothing new, America as well as every country in the world has always had problems that have yet to be solved, and might not ever be. The day any country on this planet becomes a Utopian society with no problems is the day God comes and wipes us all out and decides to start over from scratch.

 

[flux]

President Bush has been a serious liability.

As the former Counter-Terrorism advisor since the Regan era Richard Clark said, Bush undermined the war on terrorism by invading Iraq.

'nuff said.

 

[Odelay]

Ya that multimillion dollar book deal and the residuals he gets from every copy sold, and the fact after holding his position for so many years as you stated he was fired has nothing to do with his sudden change of heart about Bush. :roll: Nothing but good things to say when he is working for the Bush Administration, but after being fired and offered millions of dollars his story changes, sounds a lot like a bitter former employee.

 

[shivs]

This country will be better off when an independant wins an election. However that will never happen because everyone always says "ahh if I vote independant it's not going to matter, not enough people vote for him/her anyway, so my vote isn't going to count. People end up voting for demo or repub, this needs to stop.

 

[flux]

Ya that multimillion dollar book deal and the residuals he gets from every copy sold, and the fact after holding his position for so many years as you stated he was fired has nothing to do with his sudden change of heart about Bush. :roll: Nothing but good things to say when he is working for the Bush Administration, but after being fired and offered millions of dollars his story changes, sounds a lot like a bitter former employee.

You say not to listen to Conservative radio, but you swallow their bullshit.

Clearly you didnt actually listen to Richard Clark's testimony.

He was NOT fired. He quit the administration because he felt the President was not heeding his advice/warnings regarding actual terrorist activities, and was instead totally focused on finding some way to invade Iraq. There was no sudden change of heart, he always felt the way he did. He wasnt able to go public with his opinions earlier because he was a part of the administration, one of the primary councils to the President! Of course while he's working for the President he's not going to be allowed to speak ill and undermine his BOSS. Its in his freakin job description (DUH!). He was asked by the President to give reports that showed events in a good light, and he followed orders. And he never contradicted himself or his opinions, he merely ommitted his critical thoughts.

If you listen to Richard Clark, its not hard to tell that he is a very honest civil servant with decades of loyal service to the American people. He is the epitomy of integrety and not even Condoliza Rice could say anything about the man except that he was very well respected by everyone in the administration.

But of course Conservative voices have to find some bullshit spin to put on it (thats what they do!), and you ate it right up.

 

[flux]

This country will be better off when an independant wins an election. However that will never happen because everyone always says "ahh if I vote independant it's not going to matter, not enough people vote for him/her anyway, so my vote isn't going to count. People end up voting for demo or repub, this needs to stop.

The problem with that is that splits the forward thinkers os that conservatives will own all. Its unfortunate, as we really could use a new political party.

 

[Jaygee]

Dammit, for some reason my post yesterday didn't show up on here. I'll just summarize it.

Odelay, I make it a point to *not* listen to Michael Moore. Al Franken I know less about. And I haven 't listened to that new liberal station yet, either.

I got this from my history teacher, and looked it up online. This is not a "conspiracy", this is very much out in the open, and has been for years. They make no secret of it, which makes the fact that no one is questioning anything all the more inexplicable.

Look it up---
"Project for the New American Century"

include "Wolfowitz", "Cheney", "Rumsfeld", and "Kristol".
Wouldn't hurt to include "1992", "1997", or "2000" as well.
You will first get the website of the thing itself, followed by dozens of sites mentioning it both favorably and critically, with various degrees of maturity and shrillness.
I suppose people of different foreign-policy stripes will regard this doctrine differently, but it is very difficult to not dwell at least for a moment at its implications.

 

[The Gardener]

Here you go... it's pretty hilarious to read. I bet these guys have wet dreams about the Cold War.

http://www.newamericancentury.org/

 

[Odelay]

:freaked2:

 

[Odelay]

Eh I'm bored, it's pointless and it's counter productive to the true point of this site by going on. I am sure we are only a few posts away from the "f*** you ignorant bastard," "I f*****g hate foolish pricks like you," "Grow up and learn the facts you dim-witted wanker" posts that serve no purpose or point on this site.

So to end things on a lighter note I saw we all vote for Gary Coleman because he's more entertaining and likable than both Kerry and Bush and he could end every speech with "What you talking about."

Coleman in 2004

 

[The Gardener]

I understand what you have to say, Odelay. You seem to be a morally honest conservative, which I respect. Me, I'm neither conservative nor liberal, I tend to the Libertarian.

Anyhoo, I think Bush is a failure. No, not because of the whole WMD fiasco... we've gone into bloodier wars based on far less bullshit that that. And, you are right, both parties bought into the Iraq thang and both parties did it for the same reason... because they are both the b****s of Corporate America. In fact, they are both in fact the same political party, just two different wings of the Corporate Party. They ought to get rid of their respective emblems, the donkey and elephant, and instead adopt a new emblem, a stylized figurine of an Angel who is pissing out champagne. A true icon of the newly unified Corporate America Political Party, inspired from the ice carvings of Angels that pissed champagne for the guests at the typical Corporate America/Kozlowski/Tyco-type parties. Oh, and did I mention that Tyco is actually 'based' in Bermuda to avoid paying United States taxes to the Internal Revenue Service. Yeah, that's just the PERFECT new symbol for the new, united party formed by the Democrats and Republicans. They don't REALLY disagree on the big points, they just quibble over the small ones. Kind of like watching a 'debate' on Fox News, quibbling over minutae in a faint attempt at 'balance' while really not offering a true dissent to the party line.

Anyways, back to dubya. He's not a failure for the WMD thing. Nor is he a failure for 9/11. I actually think he handled the initial stages of the WOT fantastically! I belive that dubya sucks for one main reason:

BAD EXECUTION OF POLICY, I.E., INCOMPETENCE

I believe that they believed there were WMD's in Iraq. But, the thing I cannot forgive him for is the terrible execution of the warplan in Iraq. What a mess. First, they bungled things with the UN. We don't need the UN... then, ok, we'll present our case at the UN. Then, the UN is taking too much time. Then, screw the UN. Then, they tried to do it on the cheap, and now we are getting burned. Then, they want the UN back in. Now, we are PLEADING for the UN to HELP US because we are getting shot up and need help. This is NOT the America I know. We look like a bunch of losers. Unforgiveable, in my opinion. Bush's mishandling and poor warplanning have cost this nation untold damage to our prestige.

I'll tell you one thing, at the company I work for there are many people who say, hey, let's take a gamble on this and try this new strategy? And if the company goes along, and the strategy fails, that person is fired. Pretty much what I think of Dubya right now. He fucked up. And this latest prison fiasco is making it even worse. Where is the adult supervision at the Pentagon? As far as I'm concerned, Rumsfeld should already have had his bags packed. It is inexcusable for our nation to be in the headlines of every news outlet around the world accompanied by photos like what I am seeing now of what they did to those prisoners. I don't care if 'oh, it was just a FEW bad soldiers'... bullshit. It is one thing to play rough with detainees, I mean, war is hell and we all know that you have to break a few eggs to make an omlette.. but it is another thing to be CAUGHT on photos doing it. This, plus the fucked up warplan, and the WMD lie, it just all adds up to an administration that is making America look stupid, arrogant, impotent, incapable, and WEAK. Bush should be fired. ASAP. Before the idiots in his administration have any more time to do even more damage to our reputation as a strong and upstanding nation.

 

[Jaygee]

Odelay---

Thankfully, I don't think any of us are "shut the f*** up and learn the facts you dimwitted wanker" types. I say "thankfully" because sometimes it seems like that's the only kind of conversationalist there is---only slightly less so in real life than on the internet.

 

[flux]

Odelay---

Thankfully, I don't think any of us are "shut the f*** up and learn the facts you dimwitted wanker" types. I say "thankfully" because sometimes it seems like that's the only kind of conversationalist there is---only slightly less so in real life than on the internet.

Shows what you know, Jay. Theres a lot of assholes here. So why dont you just shut the f*** up and learn the facts?

Really theres only a few bad apples that turn up here and there, but when they do, the whole place starts to rot a bit.

 

[ColtsFan]

Gardener,

Your anti-corporation drivel goes over well with the blue collar crowd, and I can understand that they need a scape goat president to vent against.

But let me ask you something, who the hell employs millions of people in this country?

That would be major corporations. So if you want to see this counrty really go into an economic tail spin then take away those corporate tax breaks and see them start laying off people and closing there doors because they have no insentive to expand.

You may hate the rich but if there werent rich people then nobody would be buying anything.

How do think the guy that builds Escalades for GM in Detroit would make a living if the corporate guy closed his doors?

People have the ability to be re-trained in other livlihoods, but they would rather b**ch and complain about rich people than get a student loan and go back to school.

Bitching about people who are successful in corporate America is no way to further your own future success. This is America and you are free to chastise the system that millions of people died for, but if you prefer a more socialist/communist form of government and society that has proven to fail everywhere, then feel free to hop on a plane to N Korea or Cuba. They would be glad to have you comrad....