The destruction of Armando's sebum-back-up theory w/pictures

[Bryan]

Thank you Bryan for your interesting comments.
I am aware with Kilgman’s experiments about sebum movement in hair shaft but, He failed in one thing: “Sebum is continuously producedâ€￾ and the experiment didn’t contemplate this issue, it was realized with no sebum movement.

What difference do you think that would make? Even with sebum being continuously produced and forced out of the opening of the follicular canal, there's still nothing to force it along the length of hairs afterwards. It could only be absorbed by the hairs and follow along their length as if they were a "wick" of some sort, like what happens when you dip the end of a string into a glass of water and see the moisture travel along the length of the string for a certain distance. But Kligman clearly showed that hairs don't "wick" sebum. Sebum has no affinity at all for attaching to hairs and flowing along them.

 

[Armando Jose]

Ant then; What is your idea of sebum going out from hair follicle?

Is it acumulated at the first portion of hair and scalp?
I don't think so. It must be pushed forward anyway.

On the other hand, when sebum is "attached" hair follicle it is not very easy remove it. It is necessary the action of detergents.

Really sebum have a special reologhic properties, I have an old study regarding this issue.

Armando

 

[Bryan]

Ant then; What is your idea of sebum going out from hair follicle?

Is it acumulated at the first portion of hair and scalp?
I don't think so. It must be pushed forward anyway.

Kligman found that it simply doesn't naturally "coat" the lengths of hairs. There's nothing to push it forward.

Really sebum have a special reologhic properties, I have an old study regarding this issue.

I don't understand the word "reologhic". Did you misspell it?

 

[Guest]

I don't understand the word "reologhic". Did you misspell it?

think he meant rheologic, bryan.

 

[Armando Jose]

Yes Jayman, you are right.

Excuse my english.

BTW, Bryan if sebum don't coat hair, where is sebum if it is not in the surface of hair? Acummulated in the pore of pilosebaceous unit?

Armando

 

[Armando Jose]

Dear friend;

It seems that sebum is so nasty that it don't like itself. But our body needs eliminate it passing the time due to its great inestability and hair, in my opinion, is a key factor.

Two thing can help to mobilice sebum:
1- The hair growth itself, near 1cm/month, the the hair shaft can drag sebum matherial.
2- The movement of hair shaft when we comb hair, or the wind, or touching the hair with hands. So the sebum are in intim contact with hair shaft.

This study (*) about sebum excretion is very interesting, but I think that it can be improved, as Kligman's studies, if they would put in the middle of the pore a structure resembling hair shaft.
In the abstract He say:
The results indicate that the surface tension regulates sebum excretion.


Armando

(*) The regulation of sebum excretion in man
H Eberhardt
Arch Derm. Forsh. 251:155-164, 1974

http://www.springerlink.com/content/pv3 ... lltext.pdf

 

[Armando Jose]

More proof in sebum regulation

This another study talk about sebum regulation.
It possible read:
We concluded that the explanation for the nonlinear excretion-timefunction is that sebum excretion is regulated
The deviation from the linear form could, according to these
explanations originate froma wiping off effect;
flow away or 'run-off' of sebum;
resorption of the sebum;
change in the physical properties of sebum.

Nice reading

Armando


Is the Excretion of Sebum Regulated ?
H. Eberhardt and G. Trieb
Arch. Dermatol. Res. 266, 127-133 (1979)


http://www.springerlink.com/content/q27 ... lltext.pdf

 

[Armando Jose]

Although it could be pedantic, yesterday I did remember this quote:

"When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are all in confederacy against him."
Jonathan Swift

Armando

 

[Bryan]

Although it could be pedantic, yesterday I did remember this quote:

"When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are all in confederacy against him."
Jonathan Swift

Be careful, Armando! You don't want to develop the same Messianic Complex that Stephen Foote has been suffering from for the last several years! :wink:

 

[michael barry]

we generally wash our hair once a day in the west.


this should eliminate sebum constantly from the scalp surface for the most part.

 

[docj077]

we generally wash our hair once a day in the west.


this should eliminate sebum constantly from the scalp surface for the most part.

Has anyone around here every figured out why people wash their hair so much in the U.S.?

 

[michael barry]

You shower once a day and wash you body once a day dont you?

If you shower in the morning and go pump iron in the evening, you shower once you get home dont you? Or do you go to bed all sweaty?


When once bathes, they naturally "bathe" their scalp also. Its marketed to us via shampoo manufacturers and cosmetics companies. My hair will be oily if I skip more than one day of shampooing, and it will look dull and feel greasy. I dont like it. I shampoo once every day thesedays.

Even if something in shampoo was hard on the scalp, its only on there for what.......................30 seconds?


We brush our teeth excessively in the west too........................resulting in .................................white teeth.




Those pictures Ive been able to find of balding women after injects of testosterone showed me all I needed to know about balding of men. Its just testosterone and our hairs response to it. Whether we shampoo alot or a little, grow our hair long or short, have big or small pillows, combs or brushes matters almost nil. Its testosterone and nothing else.

 

[docj077]

I'm actually the complete opposite. Shampooing my hair daily leaves it really dry and lifeless. I've just recently started shampooing my hair every four-five days. It's amazing how long it keeps from getting oily when you don't shampoo it for a long time.

To be honest, I'd be very interested to see a study that demonstrates how sebum secretion is affected when a person doesn't shampoo for longer and longer periods of time. I do wash my hair with water twice a day and it seems to help a lot.

The first week I tried this was hell, but it has been really nice ever since. I'm sure that it's adversely affecting my hair in some way, but I'm not too worried about it.

 

[Bryan]

To be honest, I'd be very interested to see a study that demonstrates how sebum secretion is affected when a person doesn't shampoo for longer and longer periods of time.

All indications are that washing doesn't affect sebum secretion one way or the other. You aren't hinting that you believe the "feedback theory", are you?

 

[Armando Jose]

Michael Barry wrote:
"we generally wash our hair once a day in the west.


this should eliminate sebum constantly from the scalp surface for the most part."

Possibly you can get a good hygienic scalp and hairs, but I doubt its action inside tle pilosebaceous unit. Then if there is affected hairs, the action of shampoo is small.

Also Barry wrote:
"Those pictures Ive been able to find of balding women after injects of testosterone showed me all I needed to know about balding of men. Its just testosterone and our hairs response to it"

have you take in mind in this case the hair's lenght? Possibly don't.


Armando

 

[docj077]

To be honest, I'd be very interested to see a study that demonstrates how sebum secretion is affected when a person doesn't shampoo for longer and longer periods of time.

All indications are that washing doesn't affect sebum secretion one way or the other. You aren't hinting that you believe the "feedback theory", are you?

Personally, I seem to accumulate less sebum on my scalp now in a one week period of time, then I usually did on a daily basis when I washed my hair with shampoo regularly.

The most likely option here is that my shampoos contain something that is an irritant to my scalp or it's changing the ph of my scalp too much. Like I said, those first few days are hell, because your scalp feels oily and irritated, but now, my hair feels a little oily and my scalp isn't irritated at all.

I tend to get contact dermatitis with random products including deodorant, so it would not be surprising if I get it with shampoo. I mean, shampoos that contain tree tea oil like the Paul Mitchell product actually leave my hair oilier by the end of the day when compared to when I don't shampoo at all.

Another great option is that my shampoos are drying my scalp out too much (quite possible with the tea tree shampoo) and I end up touching and scratching my head which should lead to more sebum on the scalp.

The weirdest part about this is that the same thing happens when I don't use deodorant for a few days. I may not smell very good, but it sure seems to reduce the amount of sweating that I do around my axillae.

This is all fine and dandy, but it's quite likely a matter of perception and the fact that I'm so busy that I'm not paying very close attention.


And, no, I don't believe that sebum production feeds back on its self.

 

[powersam]

We brush our teeth excessively in the west too........................resulting in .................................white teeth.

and receded gums and destroyed tooth enamel. but hey, they're white.


that said, i completely agree with docj007. i said pretty much the same thing months ago as he said in his last post. my hair does not get oily/greasy as fast if i dont wash it. if i was it every day, its greasy at the end of the day. if i wash it once a week it gets greasy by the end of the week. dont konw why, all i konw is that it does.

 

[Bryan]

Personally, I seem to accumulate less sebum on my scalp now in a one week period of time, then I usually did on a daily basis when I washed my hair with shampoo regularly.

That's hard for me to believe.

The most likely option here is that my shampoos contain something that is an irritant to my scalp or it's changing the ph of my scalp too much. Like I said, those first few days are hell, because your scalp feels oily and irritated, but now, my hair feels a little oily and my scalp isn't irritated at all.

Another great option is that my shampoos are drying my scalp out too much (quite possible with the tea tree shampoo) and I end up touching and scratching my head which should lead to more sebum on the scalp.

I don't know about the "more sebum on the scalp" part, but it does seem reasonable that if your scalp is irritated, scratching it would track more sebum onto your hair. Kligman concluded that the only apparent way that sebum gets onto hair in the first place is by physical contact, like when you touch or scratch your head, sleep on a pillow, etc.

He also found in that same series of experiments that shampooing didn't alter sebum production.

 

[Armando Jose]

Bryan wrote:docj077 wrote:
Personally, I seem to accumulate less sebum on my scalp now in a one week period of time, then I usually did on a daily basis when I washed my hair with shampoo regularly.


That's hard for me to believe

But I don’t think that Dc077 lies about it.

And also:

Kligman concluded that the only apparent way that sebum gets onto hair in the first place is by physical contact, like when you touch or scratch your head, sleep on a pillow, etc.

Wow, what a pitty because Mr. Kligman was very near to discover the reason of the special pattern of hair loss. When we are sleeping, only certains hairs continue with a physical contact with an absorbent surface.

Bryan, have you the work where Kligman say this?


Armando

 

[michael barry]

Armando,


I want you to look very close and think very hard to the pictures Im going to post for you. http://bosley.com/patientgallery/class4_bh.php

See that man Armando? He was bald on top almost entirely. He had a hair transplant a few years ago now. He wears his hair very short and combed FORWARD. His transplanted hair does not fall out does it? See it? Its all there. You can watch video of that link.



Here is another man in the same situation Armando, http://bosley.com/patientgallery/class3_ds.php


and another, http://bosley.com/patientgallery/class2_mr.php



And by the way Armando, people with androgen sensitivity syndrome had NO SEBUM PRODUCTION that was measurable in these tests, http://jcem.endojournals.org/cgi/conten ... t/76/2/524
So, when you say........"there is no hair without sebum", your flat wrong. People with androgen insensitivity with NO MEASURABLE SEBUM have beautiful heads of hair.




Read this Armando, since you dont believe that there is any difference in any scalp hairs:

Both women and men with androgenetic alopecia have higher levels of androgen receptors and 5-reductase type 1 and 2 in frontal than in occipital hair follicles, whereas higher levels of aromatase were found in their occipital follicles (Sawaya and Price, 1997). Aromatase content in women's frontal hair follicles was six times greater than in frontal hair follicles in men. Frontal hair follicles in women had 3 and 3.5 times less 5-reductase type 1 and 2, respectively, than frontal hair follicles in men


Mens hair follicles have 3 to 3 and a half times as much DHT in the front of the head than what womens do, but six times less aromatase. What does that tell you Armando?


Thats from this, http://www.nature.com/jid/journal/v119/ ... 1659a.html
article.


By the way. ........................on your "why does nature make 2 differnt types of hair follicles on the scalp bullshit"...............On our heads, we have nose hairs, eyebrow hairs (not androgen dependent at all), ear hair, vellus hairs all over our foreheads, male pattern baldness-hair, and non-male pattern baldness hair, Beard hairs, and hair on the back of the neck that doesnt really fit any of the above categories in characteristics. Thats seven types of hairs above the shoulders Armando.