f*** Propecia

[kalbo]

Okay, I can understand the initial annoyance with HairCoverage.... but when he tells us that Propecia can cause potential damage to the immune system in the long run, why do most ppl continue sh!tting down his throat?? finasteride messes with the body so that it can't produce something that it was meant to produce, so a long term side effect such as the one described is extremely plausible. I'm not saying it's true, just stating that it could be possible.

 

[Solo]

Yeah, it could be possible. Also finasteride could make you grow a couple of wings, who knows?.



I´m not going to believe a bullshit story, that´s the first point.


After that the question that comes to my mind is: How could it be that millions of senior men around the world use 5 mg. finasteride everyday, and *there´s not a single medical case documented* of that strange, lethal disease. Does the body also sets in fire and only the ashes remain?.


In those links I´ve read women are more prone to auto immune diseases, and states it´s linked with hormonal characteristic. Well, above all, it should be non-life threatening autoimmune diseases, since women life like ten years more on average than men. And it´s easier to link men´s more frecuent causes of death with androgens than the opposite.

 

[RSG]

Bryan?

 

[powersam]

there are men born without the ability to produce type 2 5ar . these men do not develop auto immune disorders. nothing more need be said.

 

[stax]

Those men who were born unable to produce type 5 DHT or whatever are not in the same catagory as us. They were "born" that way and we were not. I strongly beleive that our body's act a lot diferently from those guys unable to produce DHT. For regular guys like us taking Finesteride doesnt make us the same biology as those guys who were born unable to produce type 2 DHT. There body's act totally different imo. People need to get off that "well what about those guys who were born without the 5ar enzyme" crap because they were "born" like that and we were not. I think its a lot different because we are trying to change our body's and they arent. The way the body works is very complex and we wont ever fully understand it. It may not be studied enough and documented on paper, but think about it. I definetly think what i said holds weight. Basically they were naturally born this way thus they probabbly wouldnt have the problems we might face from Propecia use short or long term. We weren't born this way and we are trying to change ourself so that will automatically trigger some things to happen. I think finasteride and minoxidil, dutasteride, are all poison. I want to get off all this f*****g sh*t myself. I f*****g hate hairloss.

 

[Solo]

So, if you lose an arm, is your fate sealed??


If you put on some silicone boobies, is there punishment from your body?


If you have diabetes and inject insuline, the Dark Angel of Biology is going to throw fire over you??


If you are born with a disease you should accept it and not even think of trying to manipulate your body because "The way the body works is very complex and we wont ever fully understand it"??


Dude, it all seems to me that your just applying judeo-christian morals to biology.


The body of those people who aren´t able to have type 2 5-aromatase wasn´t designed by any God to be without the enzyme. All their other systems were the same as if they have it.

Genetic does not counter-act on deffects for a single individual. Or do you think that the people who are born without an arm, grow another one in the back for compensation??.

Obviously not. Their body reacts in the same way that it would react if the arm would be cut at age 9, because you can´t have a genetic mechanism for compensating an anomaly.

Above this all, they can´t have the enzyme, but they manage to grow up properly, through the stage of the body when hormones are more important.

If you use finasteride, you are cutting when your body is developed, so any hypotetical regulation of immune or other systems is minimized vs. those men who can´t have 5-ar.

And they even have nothing wrong!!!

 

[stax]

Losing an arm doesnt have a damn thing to do with messing with your hormones. Regarding those guys who dont have a 5ar enzyme, i think their body's react differently in some ways when it comes to the whole 5ar situation because they were born without this enzyme, which has to do with hormones. For example, i dont think they have depression of brain fog, gyno, ect, like a lot of Finesteride users get. How the hell do you explain that, Solo? We on the other hand were born with this enzyme "which has to do with hormones" so when we inhibit it this goes against our "natural" hormonal make-up and causes these problems like brain fog, gyno, depression,ect. Dont try to deny that people have these sides on Propecia, because they do and it aint such a magic pill with no sides, becuase it isnt. Ive spoken with Doctors that have told me Propecia causes gyno in some men, i got mild gyno from the sh*t and more chest fat despite being naturally lean and muscular and not changing my diet for years. Im wiping that sh*t out right now with Famera. I had no problems at all before messing with these drugs. Everybody is different, some people have these problems naturally without the use of drugs, not me though personally.

 

[Solo]

Of course you can have adverse or undesirable effects. They have been reported and studied.


What I wanted to say is that any human body reacts in the same way to DHT low levels as the body of those guys who have been born without it. They are not "protected" to any effect it has in the body, just because they haven´t got 5-ar since birth.

And here comes the analogy I made with the arm. If you´re born without an arm your body does not counter-act on this growing an extra arm. If you are born with no 5-ar your body does not counter act on this "shielding" against any harm it could cause.

Sure finasteride is not a magic pill, and that it has adverse effects in some individuals, I´m not saying you´r a liar, I believe you are one of the unlucky ones to experience them, but for the majority of the people it does not cause any harm, because it has been demonstrated.


And you can´t claim that finasteride causes death for some strange and unespecified cause after long term use, based in that there are some side effects, such as gyno and a stupid (and, more than probably, fabulated) history a guy had while having a coffee.

That´s not related to the Scientifically Centered spirit this forums claims to have.

 

[-cj-]

Anyone interested about the autoimmune reactions to Finasteride shoiuld read these links:

http://www.hairsite2.com/library/abst-167.htm

http://hairsite2.com/library/abst-168.htm

Putting this on this page as well.

 

[rawbd]

Those men who were born unable to produce type 5 DHT or whatever are not in the same catagory as us. They were "born" that way and we were not. I strongly beleive that our body's act a lot diferently from those guys unable to produce DHT. For regular guys like us taking Finesteride doesnt make us the same biology as those guys who were born unable to produce type 2 DHT. There body's act totally different imo. People need to get off that "well what about those guys who were born without the 5ar enzyme" crap because they were "born" like that and we were not. I think its a lot different because we are trying to change our body's and they arent. The way the body works is very complex and we wont ever fully understand it. It may not be studied enough and documented on paper, but think about it. I definetly think what i said holds weight. Basically they were naturally born this way thus they probabbly wouldnt have the problems we might face from Propecia use short or long term. We weren't born this way and we are trying to change ourself so that will automatically trigger some things to happen. I think finasteride and minoxidil, dutasteride, are all poison. I want to get off all this f****ig $#iT myself. I f****ing hate hairloss.

You know what, I agree with you so much about the first half of this post. There is no way we can compare the bodies of people born with 5-alpha-reductase deficiency and healthy human beings and say what is different. Since the body is so complex who knows if their mutated genes affect their body in some way to sort of deal with this enzyme deficiency.

I read the entire transcript of the FDA Propecia approval meeting or whatever and someone from the FDA panel asked Merck if they had looked into the cause of death of the pseudohermaphrodites(people born with 5 alpha reductase deficiency) and Merck said they hadn't. As an engineer I don't like how Merck kept saying during their presentation that they know it is safe to block the production of DHT because the pseudohermaphrodites have no health problems...it just seems like proof by superficial observation.

Anyways, my $.02. Despite what I've said I may go back on Propecia so I'm not an ardent anti-propecia person.

 

[Solo]

You know what, I agree with you so much about the first half of this post. There is no way we can compare the bodies of people born with 5-alpha-reductase deficiency and healthy human beings and say what is different. Since the body is so complex who knows if their mutated genes affect their body in some way to sort of deal with this enzyme deficiency

No, it´s impossible, it´s unseen in nature, it´s illogical to think that genes mutate to counter-act a physiological defficiency in a single individual, no matter if it´s hormonal, immune, neurological or whatever.

I read the entire transcript of the FDA Propecia approval meeting or whatever and someone from the FDA panel asked Merck if they had looked into the cause of death of the pseudohermaphrodites(people born with 5 alpha reductase deficiency) and Merck said they hadn't. As an engineer I don't like how Merck kept saying during their presentation that they know it is safe to block the production of DHT because the pseudohermaphrodites have no health problems

What the hell?? do you think being an engineer gives anyone the power to ignore the laws of logic??

If pseudohermaphrodites doesn´t have health problems it´s because not having 5-ar causes no health problem.

You can have gyno, you can have brain fog, depression, your cat can turn green, your car can be wrecked, you can be unable to perform an erection in front of Carmen Electra, or you can feel your life is wasted after taking finasteride, but this is a solid proof that indicates that long term use of finasteride causes no life threatening life diseases!!


I think I´ve wrote it in a form that even an engineer could understand.

 

[powersam]

plus most of those issues mentioned above are probably caused by the up and down of the hormone changes rather than the hormone changes themselves. it would probably help to take your 1mg of finasteride in 4 equal doses at set times throughout the day, if you were religious about the times you took it at i bet you'd get less side effects. the pseudohermaphrodites obviously would have no fluctuations in their hormone levels.

 

[stax]

Solo, all im saying is that nothing is IMPOSSIBLE, i took that word out of the dictionary when i got it because it shouldnt be in there. You nor i do not know if their bodies compensate or act differently because they were naturally born with no 5ar enzyme. It would be so hard and i dont think people would have the interest to find out on paper and really test it. So we dont know, just because its not on paper or has never really been looked into doesnt mean that it doesnt exist or it doesnt work that way. I hope there are no long term problems with finasteride or dutasteride aswell because i take the sh*t myself. But the simple fact is we dont know. I wont be on this sh*t in 3-5 years when HM comes out thats forsure.

 

[kalbo]

Solo, not everything in nature follows the rules of common sense logic. You can't tell me that you can create a drug and predict the exact outcome 10 years later. If it were that easy, drug companies wouldn't have to take years to do research and testing on each drug they come out with. Even with Merck, there's a very good chance that at the time propecia was created, they had no idea it would cause gyno in certain cases. And how could they predict it really? Propecia works by inhibiting the production of type 2 5-alpha-reductase, which supposedly has no effect on the development of man-boobs, so logic would tell you that it would be impossible for anyone to get gyno from using propecia right?

The point that stax and some of us are trying to make is that nothing is certain, especially when you're talking about hormone altering drugs. I bet you can't find a single engineer who worked on Propecia to bet their life savings that finasteride is 100% safe for long-term use and that there are absolutely no unforseeable side effects, such as immuno diseases.

 

[HairCoverage]

Why I took his words quite seriously...

1. He isn't a pharmacist, but might as well be.. we didn't just discuss Propecia.. he gave me some damn good advice on some other medical issues which was very true and relative. Im doing something he recommended and man.. thank god we met (rash gone!)

2. The guy seemed quite irritated himself.. I thought maybe he got fired, so normal reaction.. He told me he walked out because of a Boss who was a "lying maggot" who kept telling his complaints department to refer problems to bad GP advice.


Anyways.. I was pissed off by it. Is it true? Well f*** me timbers, I can't confirm it.. But I believe it. I believe it truely.

And funny thing he said as well..

"If you've been taking Propecia for a while.. you've put all this hope and money into the thing... And theres all this "scientific data".. would you seriously just accept the facts that ruin your hope and make you sh*t scared? It's alot easier to deny it.. keep using it.. and shoot the messenger"

Oh and he said...

"As your doctor or dermatologist this question... If Propecia has only a 5 years study... why is it being kept on the Market as safe when they know very well that a released medicine with a 5 year study on Ticks called "forgot the name" was eventually found out that with these billions spent.. in 15 years time, somethin like 65% of users developed Parkinsons... They don't tell ya that now do they"

(If anyone has heard about this.. LINK PLZ!)

Well shiver me Charlie.. now I know what he was talkin about.

 

[westcovinajoe]

Well now I am convinced. :freaked:


If this is true, I have saved this thread and I will be emailing Merck with the link and questioning them as to the identity of this man who " isn't a pharmacist, but might as well be", so that he can shed some more light on this...

I am sure that if Merck has knowledge that a medication that has been used for decades in men could actually disengage the immune system of those same men, and then cause Parkinson's in 60% of those men, they would want to know.

Especially if a man who works for them or used to, and " isn't a pharmacist, but might as well be" has this information.

I am not an investigative reporter but I might as well be.

Joe.

 

[westcovinajoe]

Just thought I would add as an aside:

Since Propecia has been available as a hair loss medication, many more people have died using aspirin, Tylenol, and well let's not even mention alcohol.

Don't believe the fear mongers, and always question their motives.

Finasteride has been around for 14 years and has one of the lowest reported side effect profiles around.

Most medications cause much more harm than Propecia.

Here is a link for some unbiased, non-paranoid info: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finasteride

Chill out,
Joe.

 

[powersam]

haircoverage - why are you surprised that people question your unsupported and unsubstantiated claims?

 

[kalbo]

And funny thing he said as well..

"If you've been taking Propecia for a while.. you've put all this hope and money into the thing... And theres all this "scientific data".. would you seriously just accept the facts that ruin your hope and make you $#iT scared? It's alot easier to deny it.. keep using it.. and shoot the messenger"

Exactly.... and that's what we're witnessing right here on this thread.

Personally, I still plan on using propecia because hairloss for a single guy at such a young age is painful to go through. However, I won't be so naive to believe that the only side effects are the ones already claimed by Merck. Messing around with nature shouldn't be so easy.

 

[westcovinajoe]

I emailed Merck. Hopefully they get back to me so we can get to the bottom of this mysterious guy who could have been a "pharmacist" but wasn't.

By the way, I thought "pharmicists" worked at places like Rite-Aid, CVS, and Sav-on, you know, pharmacies...

I thought Merck employed scientists.

Hopefully I get a reply,
Joe