Leave Your Hormones Alone

[vq0]

it would promote certain types of cancer over others. I'm pretty sure Doctor can answer this better but if you look at curry consuming populations they have lower incidences of some cancers and higher of others. Dosing of circumin is what I am wondering about.

 

[techprof]

vqo,
I am from Indian origin and cosume a lot of turmeric powder and other spices every day. It didn't stop me from going to NW6.
While your theory might be true or false, it is not worth taking the risk to avoid finasteride or dutasteride as of today.

 

[JWM]

This is OLD news guys.

Remember Waseda? He was preaching this stuff too. Amashisho and T-Flavanone were supposed to inhibit TGF-Beta topically.

Tons of people hopped on board and used all these herbs and topicals to block this pathway and that. Don't believe me? Go visit alt.baldspot and dig up some old posts on Zinc Oxide, Souhakuhi, Bayberry etc. etc.

The bottom line? Everyone went back to the big 3. It may not be great for everyone, but at the moment it's the best we have. Accept it.

 

[JWM]

Oh and for the record, I have been reading this site and others for a looooooooooonnnnnng time. I've seen EVERYTHING come and go and have fallen prey to many hopes and fears myself.

 

[The Gardener]

T-Flavanone

Doesn't he play guard for the Knicks?

 

[JWM]

I thought he was a rapper :lol:

 

[Skaff]

If inflammation was a major cause, wouldn't we be seeing a lot more women with hair loss? Surely the major cause is something hormonal and unique to men.

 

[docj077]

Would the use of a TGF-Beta receptor antagonist potentially have any negative consequences that would be ripple effects from it? Is this receptor used for any beneficial purpose?

There are a lot of positive effects that the result of TGF-beta. A major one would have to be wound healing. Otherwise, it's detrimental effects could potentially take up pages on this site.

 

[docj077]

If inflammation was a major cause, wouldn't we be seeing a lot more women with hair loss? Surely the major cause is something hormonal and unique to men.

Women have testosterone and DHT, as well. A lot of women in the world have female pattern baldness.

Hormonally, there is really nothing different between men and women in adulthood other than the concentrations of hormones.

 

[viperfish]

vqo,

Have you ever looked into a product called 'proxiphen' before. I think you might be quite interested to see what agents it contains. http://www.drproctor.com

 

[Skaff]

If inflammation was a major cause, wouldn't we be seeing a lot more women with hair loss? Surely the major cause is something hormonal and unique to men.

Women have testosterone and DHT, as well. A lot of women in the world have female pattern baldness.

Hormonally, there is really nothing different between men and women in adulthood other than the concentrations of hormones.

I know, I think you missed my point. The variable between male and female is hormone concentration, which suggests this is responsible for why men bald and women don't (generally speaking). On the other hand, inflammation isn't something unique to men so...you get the idea.

 

[vq0]

Proxiphen contains both zinc and copper, two metals that supposidly inhibit each other's absorption. Consequently I am trying to spread the zinc and copper out so that the metals do not interact.

techprof, I dont know how much circuminoid is absorbed into your system because with my piperine and my 300mg 2x a day 95% extract I probably get a lot more. finasteride is a risk seeing as side effects may not be as reversible as people once thought. Can't wait to see what dutasteride does. Then again for all I know circumin might kill someone faster depending on their genetics. I dont think a substance that at .05mg inhibits half my manhood is too safe and I've read to many people who don't recover from the sheds that you're supposed to get. It works for some but not for me and I have an ugly shaped head.

Doctor, I was wondering what you mean by wound healing. I have a slight nerve injury and was wondering whether circumin might inhibit the long term healing. What do you think?

 

[Guest]

what if merck were to merely delay the release of a treatment like SOD and milk propecia for what its worth?

because propecia is barely making them any money. it's never done that well. lol.

vq0,

by the way, i hate you for making this post.

 

[Bertie]

This is OLD news guys.

Remember Waseda? He was preaching this stuff too. Amashisho and T-Flavanone were supposed to inhibit TGF-Beta topically.

Tons of people hopped on board and used all these herbs and topicals to block this pathway and that. Don't believe me? Go visit alt.baldspot and dig up some old posts on Zinc Oxide, Souhakuhi, Bayberry etc. etc.

The bottom line? Everyone went back to the big 3. It may not be great for everyone, but at the moment it's the best we have. Accept it.

This really should be repeated, and everyone going the natural route has to consider it long and hard -- what you are doing is not new -- it is the Waseda regimen, which has a considerable record in the archives of all the Internet hairloss forums. A record, I think it is safe to say, of failure.

Why of failure? One reason, I think, is the bioavailability problem -- all these herbs have all these wonderful properties in vitro, but get them into the body, and do any of them maintain these properties? Consider curcumin. According to studies cited here (http://lpi.oregonstate.edu/infocenter/p ... index.html), detected serum concentrations of curcumin following doses of either 3.6g or 4g (depending on the study) was zero. 3.6g is ten of those capsules in supplement form. All of the phase 1 and 2 studies using curcumin that you can see in the above link use doses well beyond one or two capsules per day (except those for gastro-intestinal disease, in which case absorbtion into the bloodstream may be unnecessary for the supplement to have an effect). A similarly grim story goes for Resveratrol and lots of other promising herbs.

Now, you could go the ImmortalHair route and take insanely huge doses off all these herbs. Overwhelm bioavailability by brute force. Costs you $2000 per year to take his regimen. But at that point you have to ask yourself -- if I'm going natural because I don't trust finasteride, why should I trust taking a huge amount of substances that have never been tested together, are not even in isolation tested at the doses being advocated (or are in any sense indigenous to any human diet at those doses). Then there's the objection that Bryan rightfully raises from time to time -- if a natural ends up having similar effects to those of a drug -- the IH regimen has a lot of Beta-Sis, for example, and so has effects on hormones that are similar to those of some of the drugs considered for hair loss -- and if the side effects of the drug directly follow from the drug's function -- the sides of finasteride, for example, being what you would expect from the big drop in serum DHT -- then it is reasonable to assume that any natural with a mechanism of action similar to a drug will have the same sides as the drug.

I guess what I'm saying is -- perhaps someday, hair loss research will hit the point where treating the downstream effects of androgens will be more effective than tackling the androgens themselves. But we're not there yet, unless -- maybe, and this is a long shot maybe -- you're willing to mega dose supplements. In which case you are right back at square one when it comes to side effects and long term health.

(Now, it seems actually that the OP is not going wholly natural, in that he's considering drug containing topicals. In which case he has the option of Proxiphen or a poor man's Proxiphen of Rogaine/homemade spironolactone/Folligen or some such. And that might have a fighting chance of being as good as finasteride, without sides).

 

[michael barry]

Bertie,

Your reflections sum up alot of what I feel.

Until we have good testing, we know that finasteride, dutasteride, topical spironolactone, nizoral, minoxidil and retin-A are effective.



I tested revivogen on one wrist over a year ago to very good anti-androgenic effect. However since wrist skin and scalp skin are two different things, I couldn't guarantee that it would work as well on the scalp. Pine oil seen a reduction of hair on the back of one hand (beta sis in that). Im currently trying to test bourbon (beta sis in that) topically to see if it will result in less wrist hair, and have thought about a couple of anti-androgens to test on my neck-shaving area. Ive been washing one half of my neck with alpecin to see if it is anti-androgenic for about one month. If it is, there is only a slight effect, and not nearly as pronounced as the revivogen results.

Things I'd like to see tested topically in beard-area hair to see if it decreased the beard growth from an anti-androgenic standpoint would be hops, thyme, beta sitosterol, revivogen (again on the thicker beard-area skin). Applications should be about 12 hours apart as I think twice a day is as much as we can reasonably expect people to use a topical.

I think "regrowth" agents from an anti-inflammatory standpoint better than peptides or minoxidil will have to come from professional researchers and by artificially synthesized.





In short, I think until cloning we might be in a 'dead period' in hair research. Alot of people are excited about neo-sil right now over at hairsite, but I dont think these things are going to stop baldness.


If I were a betting man..............I'd still say that finas or dutas plus spironolactone and prox-N would be someone's best long-term bet in holding onto what they have. Shampoo with nizoral a few days a week also......and thats it.

 

[Fat-Elvis]

Would someone mind explaining to me what exactly inflamation of the scalp is, and what it has to do with losing hair?

 

[JWM]

Michael Barry

2 questions for you:

1) How do you rate Folligen or Tricomin? Could they be an effective addittion to the big 3 in your opinion?

2) I noticed you added spironolactone to the list. Do you feel Dr. Lee's 5% spironolactone cream used once a day can actually make a difference in one's regimen who is already using the big 3?

Bertie

Great post!!

 

[michael barry]

Bertie wrote:
"Michael Barry

2 questions for you:

1) How do you rate Folligen or Tricomin? Could they be an effective addittion to the big 3 in your opinion? ------
--------------------Tricomin's copper peptides are an alanine/histidyl/lysine tri-amino acid copper complex that made it through FDA phase two trials with good results somewhat better than 2-percent minoxidil. Dr. Loren Pickart formulated them when he was employed by the procyte corporation. Tricomin does not sell you the concentration that was used in the trials however, just half concentration. If Im not mistaken, they advise you to use tricomin twice a day. Its probably a way to get you to use more of the stuff and buy more. Folligen is Pickart's product from his own skinbio.com. The thing is though is that Pickart cannot use Tricomin's peptide complex which was picked out of many many peptides as the most effective in animal models. Pickart drenches soy protiens in cupric sulfate and uses the naturally occuring peptides that ensue in his product along with aloe vera gel, vitamin A and E (I think). Pickart has a cream formula that has saw palmetto oil in it as an antiandrogen also. Ive used folligen on my face and like the effect, but I cant attest to it growing more hair or anything. As with so much in the phucking hairloss world, we need tests. Phase two FDA tests arent enough, but they are better than nothing. Pickart puts alot more peptide content in Folligen than you would get in Tricomin, in fact its much more. If one put a gun to my head I guess I'd advise tricomin because its been proven in third party tests. Pickart claims folligen works better in his animal models (mice), but why in the f*** does he not post their pics on his own site?

I do think peptides are helpful. They have a good effect on TGF-beta and IL-1, which are a couple of bad cytokines involved in hairloss. They also get the skin to attempt to remodel itself and up VEGF. Prox-N are probably the best peptides, but they are so pricey.

2) I noticed you added spironolactone to the list. Do you feel Dr. Lee's 5% spironolactone cream used once a day can actually make a difference in one's regimen who is already using the big 3? ===============================================================I'll be honest with you, if you use Nizoral every third day (whats recommended), then on the two days you DONT use nizoral, if you use spironolactone in the morn and again at night you'd be doing well. Why Twice? If you look in the resource library of GourmetStyleWellness, you can find some great info about spironolactone. Sprio gets turned into a weaker anti-androgen, carneoic acid, in 3.97 hours, and the carneoic acid lasts for about four more hours. So each time you apply spironolactone, youre getting anti-androgenic receptor blockage for about eight hours. If you use it twice in a day, at least eight hours apart, your getting 16 hours of good anti-androgenic activity up there.

I think using it on days you shampooed with nizoral might be kind of a "double effect" or not necessary myself. Nizoral was shown in a 21 month study to lower sebum secretions, raise hair sizes and counts and lessen sebum secretions, so we know that ketoconazale is effective. Its too strong to use every day though and using every other day is the absolute most you'd want to use it-----or it actually becomes bad for your hair----I learned that the hard way years ago when I had a shed from it.

I think adding spironolactone to your non-nizoral days to the big three would really help you keep your hair even longer.



Bertie

Great post!!

 

[vq0]

waseda regime doesn't involve topical SODs and apple poly. I think these two things are potent enough to stop hair loss if applied 2x a day. Does anyone have experience with these two supps?

 

[JWM]

Michael Barry

spironolactone twice a day? Yikes, I could probably only manage once a day. The stuff makes my diffuse thinning look awful in the morning.

What do you make of the study that found nizoral 1% to be as effective as 2%? I have gone back and forth between both over the years and have actually achieved better results with the 1%. The 2% was far to harsh and fried my hair.

You're big on Prox-N huh? Why do you feel the peptides in Dr. P's products are so good? I know he pioneered alot of the stuff so are you willing to take him on his word that what he includes in his stuff is worthwhile? I agree with you though: The stuff is damn pricey. You can get a 'light' version at LEF but that makes me a little nervous.

What do you think of this routine:

Finasteride once a day
Rogaine Foam twice a day
5% spironolactone cream once a day
1% Nizoral 3 times a week

Would you say that was solid? Would adding Prox-N to the above make it THAT much more effective in your opinion?

Thanks

JWM (NOT Bertie :wink: )