Theory: Cooked Fat =DHT(Dihydrotestosterone) Baldness

[DammitLetMeIn]

hey man, the proof is in the pudding, you type in your own fate here

what do you mean?

 

[DammitLetMeIn]

Oh, here is another study which supports the hypthesis that early balding is a marker for insulin resistance:

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_o ... d09ad15466

 

[bubka]

by just posting baseless things upon baseless things, do you ever stop and wonder why everyone here refutes your bad theory?

my god, you already had to change it once because you said that humans evolved on a diet of low sugar carbs and non cooked fats, yet apes who we have a common ancestor balled.

still waiting on those goddamn fats too about no bold Eskimos, native Americans, and pre WWII japanes to for crying out loud!

 

[DammitLetMeIn]

by just posting baseless things upon baseless things, do you ever stop and wonder why everyone here refutes your bad theory?!

I've posted science all the way through. And, my theory has evolved as I've been learning. Not everyone refutes the theory and people are interested in discussing it.

my god, you already had to change it once because you said that humans evolved on a diet of low sugar carbs and non cooked fats, yet apes who we have a common ancestor balled.

You're still stuck on the ape thing. Not all apes are bald and of those species that are, it came as a result of the survival of the fittest.

still waiting on those goddamn fats too about no bold Eskimos, native Americans, and pre WWII japanes to for crying out loud!

I haven't had time to look. I have seen many anthropological studies in pssing. I'll get to it when i get time. I'm interested in the link between insulin and baldness right now.

btw, if this thread bothers you THAT much, here's an idea - don't read it.

 

[Guest]

How did this thing grow to 37 pages?!?!

 

[DammitLetMeIn]

Role of insulin in miniaturization:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/quer ... t=Abstract

 

[SkylineGTR]

did you even read the begining "....but the mechanisms explaining this miniaturization have remained unclear. According to our hypothesis...."

This in no way proves anything its speculation.

its even listed under MED HYPOTHESIS

 

[DammitLetMeIn]

This in no way proves anything its speculation.

I didn't say it proved anything.

I am sure however, that insulin has an important role in male pattern baldness. Whether you choose to believe it or not is up to you.

 

[wookster]

:devil: nfire: :devil:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/quer ... t=Abstract



quote:

BACKGROUND: A recent report suggested that men with vertex balding have higher levels of plasma insulin-like growth factor 1 (IGF-1). The association of its major carrier protein, insulin-like growth factor binding protein 3 (IGFBP-3), with male pattern hair loss has not been examined.

OBJECTIVE: We evaluated the relations of plasma concentrations of IGF-1 and IGFBP-3 with vertex balding in middle-aged and elderly men.

[...]

CONCLUSION: Older men with vertex balding have lower circulating levels of IGFBP-3 and higher levels of IGF-1 when controlling for IGFBP-3 level.

 

[SkylineGTR]

yay you just proved that its genetics.

Binding proteins that are gene based.

you know how many there are? Responsible for tissue and growth.

Insulin-Like growth factor binding proteins do tons of things biologicaly in the body that influence the cells.

It's not the insulin your specifically thinking.

Factors that are known to cause variation in the levels of GH and IGF-1 in the circulation include an individuals genetic make-up, the time of day, their age, sex, exercise status, stress levels, genetics, nutrition level and body mass index (BMI), disease state, race, estrogen status and xenobiotic intake.

 

[wookster]

:devil: :jumpy: :devil:

http://www.webmd.com/news/20001002/some ... going-bald



quote:

The study, which was published as a letter in the Sept. 30 issue of the journal TheLancet, showed modestly higher insulin resistance among men who had gone markedly bald on the crown before age 35, as compared to men who were not bald. The bald men also were more likely than those with full heads of hair to suffer from obesity and high blood pressure, and to have abnormal levels of lipids (fats) in their blood or to be on lipid-lowering medication. The study included 154 men with early vertex baldness and 154 men without this condition.


Previous studies have shown that bald men are more likely to get heart disease, but investigators had been puzzled as to why this should be so. This study is "intriguing," says Robert Sherwin, MD, because insulin resistance in bald men would explain that link. But the study does not prove that vertex baldness indicates insulin resistance, says Sherwin, who is a past president of the American Diabetes Association and a professor at Yale University. The differences in insulin resistance between the bald men and those with full heads of hair were only "modest."

 

[Strange Days]

:devil: nfire: :devil:

CONCLUSION: Older men with vertex balding have lower circulating levels of IGFBP-3 and higher levels of IGF-1 when controlling for IGFBP-3 level.

Another win for green tea then:

Green Tea Seems to Stem Spread of Prostate Cancer

Consumption of GTP led to reduced levels of IGF-1 (insulin-like growth factor-1)," study senior author Hasan Mukhtar, of the department of dermatology at the University of Wisconsin, said in a prepared statement.

"GTP also led to increased levels of one of the binding proteins for IGF-1, the insulin growth factor binding protein-3"

 

[SkylineGTR]

wookster, that article suggests baldness is a RISK FACTOR.

Basically its saying if your going bald your at a higher risk to get all this other stuff. Not that if you fix all this other stuff you wont go bald.

 

[wookster]

Role of insulin in miniaturization:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/quer ... t=Abstract

quote:

In androgenetic alopecia, overactivation of the androgen hormone cascade in genetically predisposed persons leads to miniaturization of the dermal papilla of the hair follicle and to reduction in the number of papilla cells in the scalp, but the mechanisms explaining this miniaturization have remained unclear.




http://www.extremewellnessclinic.com/Pi ... emoval.cfm



quote:

All hairs grow out of hair follicles, which are tiny indentations in the skin. The follicle has a base in the dermis, a tubular wall, and an opening through the skin. The Super-Phaser works by passing a small amount of direct current into the hair follicle. Most people cannot even feel the current as it flows.

When this current reaches the base of the hair follicle, the salt water surrounding the follicle changes to sodium hydroxide. The sodium hydroxide is caustic and kills the root (also called the dermal papilla) of the hair follicle. Once the root is killed, the follicle cannot re-grow.



I wonder if small amounts of naturally occuring electrical currents can alter the salt water in the hair follicles creating small amounts of sodium hydroxide, causing alkaline reactions - miniaturizing, and eventually killing hair follicles over time?

Possibly related to the Stephen Foote Theory of baldness?

 

[SkylineGTR]

that could be why all the smart people go bald... too much brain activity.

 

[Bryan]

Men go bald as they get older because their insulin increases and their tissues become insulin resistant. This leads to estrogen dominance.

Where did you get THAT idea?? Reference or citation, please..

Well, as men grow older their insulin increases through years of consuming high carbohydrate foods and the insulin loses the ability to communicate with some cells. This constitutes insulin resistance. These men (like obese men) have lower testosterone levels and higher estrogen levels. Correspondingly, these men always have high DHT levels.

But those men do NOT have "correspondingly high" DHT levels. Didn't you see that recent study (from just last year) that Old Baldy posted earlier in this thread? It found that men have about the same level of DHT as they age.

It's interesting to me that over the years on hairloss sites, there's always been a fair amount of discussion of DHT levels in men as they get older and older. I had already looked at that myself two or three years ago by doing PubMed searches for relevant studies, and came to the same conclusion as the one that Old Baldy posted: DHT levels don't seem to change much as men get older.

Almost as if DHT has been created/released to ensure they stay a man.

That is PURE speculation of the wildest kind, not to mention that the fundamental premise upon which it is based (that DHT levels get higher and higher in men as they age) doesn't even appear to be valid! :wink:

Estrogen dominance corresponds with an increase in SHBG. This prompts a release of DHT and higher levels of DHT.

LOL!! Where did you get THAT idea?? Reference or citation, please.

Do you have any idea how DHT is actually formed?

As to the precise mechanism of how DHT is formed, no I have not read about it, enlighten me, in laymans' terms.

There's a great deal of information available in medical textbooks and studies on the nitty-gritty molecular details of how the cellular membrane-bound enzyme 5a-reductase (two different versions) operates on testosterone which diffuses into the cell to form DHT, with the help of the necessary co-factor NADPH. But the main point I want to stress here is that I've never seen anything about the existence of any kind of feedback mechanism involved in the production of DHT, nothing that would "prompt a release" (to use your words) of extra DHT, in response to some other event in the body. As far as I know, DHT ought to roughly parallel the availability of the 5a-reductase substrate testosterone, other things being equal. In fact, I even have a study here which measured mRNA levels of the 5a-reductase type 2 enzyme in human scalp hair follicle dermal papillae in vitro. They found that added testosterone caused an UPregulation in the production of the type 2 enzyme, suggesting that declining testosterone levels might actually further reduce the production of DHT even more than what you might expect, just from the lower availability of the substrate itself.

Bryan

 

[Bryan]

What I am saying is, as men get older, insulin rises, estrogen rises, DHT rises, testosterone drops and SHBG increases.

Oh well...4 out of 5 ain't so bad! It doesn't really appear that DHT rises as men get older.

Insulin actually regulates the testosterone. Insulin is controlled by diet. So diet comes first.

Baldness incidence increases with age.

Someone with some good knowledge should be able to draw conclusions from that.

Baldness incidence increases with age. Wrinkles increase with age. Should we be able to draw the conclusion that wrinkles cause baldness? :wink:

Bryan

 

[Bryan]

Want to lower DHT?

Daily, vigorous aerobic exercise (as opposed to short workout periods designed to raise androgen levels and build muscle or more sporadic exercise) and a diet which is adequate yet more moderate in terms of fat/total calorie intake have been shown to reduce baseline insulin levels as well as baseline total and free testosterone, significantly lowering baseline DHT.

I don't think anybody's disputing your contention that it's possible to lower your DHT levels a bit with careful attention to diet and exercise. The major bone of contention here is how EFFECTIVE such a program would actually be for fighting androgenetic alopecia, and you still haven't acknowledged that you don't have even a whit of evidence to indicate that it would provide any significant benefit in the Real World.

Bryan

 

[bubka]

now it is the other way around, it appears that there is an effect that dht has on insulin, not the other way around... at least thats what part of the one study you posted reports, try again

so that within itself does not even support your already bad theory

 

[DammitLetMeIn]

But those men do NOT have "correspondingly high" DHT levels. Didn't you see that recent study (from just last year) that Old Baldy posted earlier in this thread? It found that men have about the same level of DHT as they age.

I think you're wrong. DHT DOES increase in men as they age. Thats why men have more enlarged prostates. Just because Baldy produces one study, it doesn't automatically make it so.

It's interesting to me that over the years on hairloss sites, there's always been a fair amount of discussion of DHT levels in men as they get older and older. I had already looked at that myself two or three years ago by doing PubMed searches for relevant studies, and came to the same conclusion as the one that Old Baldy posted: DHT levels don't seem to change much as men get older..

I have posted evidence and read studies which point to the exact opposite of what you said - PARTICULARLY in men who have high insulin.

That is PURE speculation of the wildest kind, not to mention that the fundamental premise upon which it is based (that DHT levels get higher and higher in men as they age) doesn't even appear to be valid! :wink: ..

And if the fundamental premise is true? doesn't seem so wild does it? Its still speculation. But it just seems that where the body is experiencing any hormonal problems, its response is to release DHT. But yes, it is speculation, but not without foundation.

There's a great deal of information available in medical textbooks and studies on the nitty-gritty molecular details of how the cellular membrane-bound enzyme 5a-reductase (two different versions) operates on testosterone which diffuses into the cell to form DHT, with the help of the necessary co-factor NADPH. But the main point I want to stress here is that I've never seen anything about the existence of any kind of feedback mechanism involved in the production of DHT, nothing that would "prompt a release" (to use your words) of extra DHT, in response to some other event in the body. As far as I know, DHT ought to roughly parallel the availability of the 5a-reductase substrate testosterone, other things being equal. In fact, I even have a study here which measured mRNA levels of the 5a-reductase type 2 enzyme in human scalp hair follicle dermal papillae in vitro. They found that added testosterone caused an UPregulation in the production of the type 2 enzyme, suggesting that declining testosterone levels might actually further reduce the production of DHT even more than what you might expect, just from the lower availability of the substrate itself.

Bryan

Well, let me enlighten you then. If the body goes into starvation mode, the it triggers a release of DHT.

And there are certain other things which happen in the body which cause a similar release of DHT and in a simlar manner. IT appears to be regulatory.

Oh well...4 out of 5 ain't so bad! It doesn't really appear that DHT rises as men get older.

Its 5 out of 5. DHT may not increase in healthy subjects but in unhealthy subjects who have high insulin, im afraid it does.

Baldness incidence increases with age. Wrinkles increase with age. Should we be able to draw the conclusion that wrinkles cause baldness? :wink:

Bryan

You want to just ignore all the studies Wookster and I have posted or even the incidence of male pattern baldness in PCoS patients? Yet Baldy produces one study and automatically its truth?

I just ask for a level playin field - biase free.

I don't think anybody's disputing your contention that it's possible to lower your DHT levels a bit with careful attention to diet and exercise. Bryan

Well firstly, as I've already stated the exercise thing was written in Wikipedia in relation to a study I've posted. I couldn't access the full study but the writer appeared to suggest that the impact upon DHT levels was significant.

The major bone of contention here is how EFFECTIVE such a program would actually be for fighting androgenetic alopecia

I'm willing to bet lowering of insulin would have a particularly strong effect on Androgenetic Alopecia.

, and you still haven't acknowledged that you don't have even a whit of evidence to indicate that it would provide any significant benefit in the Real World.

The Japanese 2nd gen in the West?
The consistent linking of male pattern baldness with insulin resistance?
PCOS and male pattern baldness and insulin?

May not be evidence enough for you, and there may never be evidence as drug companies are primarily interested in drugs, but i'm willing to state that its a good idea for health to keep insulin as low as possible as it has an positive impact on markers of aging - of which baldness is one.

My advice to someone with male pattern baldness is go on a low glycemic diet, no bread, potatoes, fries or pasta, just low glycemic fruits/vegatables and grains.

now it is the other way around, it appears that there is an effect that dht has on insulin, not the other way around... at least thats what part of the one study you posted reports, try again

No, as insulin regulates testosterone, it is insulin which has the impact upon DHT

so that within itself does not even support your already bad theory

You repeatedly allude to a 'bad' theory, but who are you trying convince? me or you? I'm pretty sure its the latter.